From Pharoh to Mubarak, from Democracy to the Brotherhood

[eyer]

Egypt now has its best chance ever to actually become a constitutional republic - the catch though, as old Ben warned 225 years ago, is if they can "keep it." And the latest liberty movement indicates at least a core group of Egyptians are willing, once more, to risk everything to stake their nation's future on reverence for the law instead of loyalty to religion and/or party.

The Muslim Brotherhood has grossly miscalculated the will of enough vigilant Egyptian people and it must now pay the political price for showing its tyrannical hand so early after prevailing in Egypt's historic democratic elections literally just months ago. Marx proclaimed democracy led to socialism; Lenin averred that socialism's goal is communism, and Morsi is clearly goosestepping down that same collective path, with a dash of Sharia to add some Islamic flavor to the standard statist recipe of all tyrants.

A democratic majority elected the jihadist Morsi into office and a majority of voting Egyptians still fly the Bro flag, but there are enough individual liberty-loving Egyptians standing up today and saying NO! to Morsi's tyrannical power grab and to the Brotherhood's intent of turning Egypt into Sharialand that it gives a far away freedom lover hope that there are those in Egypt who understand mob rule is no true political challenge to a body of vigilant people who revere constitutional law above all.

A couple of days ago pro-liberty protestors marched all the way to Morsi's office, which is protected and fortified by the strongest power in all of Egypt - the military. A protestor was quoted as saying that they could have stormed the military positions and overtaken them, but that their fight is not against the military and that, for now at least, they desire to legally protest in respect for the legal principles they stand for.

This latest liberty-loving uprising shows that enough Egyptian people are not going to go quietly into the dark, Middle Ages night the Brotherhood plan for them. And Morsi's days are numbered now, too - already there are calls to prosecute him for his illegal actions, prosecution akin to that which Mubarak still endures.

Through it all Egypt has been blessed with a military that refuses to turn on its own people, and that key of civil integrity is what will help nourish the liberty movement as it continues to grow in the days and weeks and years ahead.

When the Egyptians finally get the law entrenched atop their government where it naturally belongs, and when they finally get a government which reveres that law as much as the vigilant liberty-lovers of today do, they may just want to print a pound note with an image of old Ben instead of some of the Pharaonic images they now use to emphasize that they not only chose and fought for the righteous path that leads from democracy to individual liberty for all, but that once they actually established their constitutional republic...

...they kept it.

 

[Squibbs]

People want porn.

 

[eyer]

People want porn.

So...

...show 'em your fat cvnt, you fat cvnt.

 

[Dazzle1]

We told you that Morsi would be a worse dictator than Muburak.

Maybe the U.N should focus on him instead of the bogus Palestinian claims to Israeli land

 

[Exquisition]

From Brotherhood to compromise....

[URL/http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-20655412[/URL]

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I think you skipped some steps between Pharaoh and Mubarek.



It is funny how people to the Left of us keep trying to anthropomorphize these goons into something that is not all that far removed from the way we thinks about things...

Just happy-go-lucky secular community organizers who can serve us best as a bridge to the animals in Hamas.

Good luck with that. As long as you keep pretending to bribe them with military and humanitarian aid and engage in "constructive dialog," they will continue to pretend to be right reasonable fellows.

:nods:

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

People want porn.

It's in the writings and the life of he who cannot be depicted.

When weak, be nice loving and tolerant.
When you get a little stronger, start asking for special privileges.
When you get them and are a little more numerous, demand them and threaten violence.
Once you are in the majority, everyone else must convert, submit, pay a tax and be invisible, or simply be killed.

How hard can it be for people to not get Islam? Take the Jews of Medina, in Saudi Arabia, for example, first they sheltered he who can not be depicted, and now they can't even board a Delta flight...
A_J, the Atheist

 

[Wat_Tyler]

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Cum on babe,
Show me the cash money!

 

[Wat_Tyler]

No, that's not my wallet!!!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

lol

 

[Exquisition]

I think you skipped some steps between Pharaoh and Mubarek.



It is funny how people to the Left of us keep trying to anthropomorphize these goons into something that is not all that far removed from the way we thinks about things...

Just happy-go-lucky secular community organizers who can serve us best as a bridge to the animals in Hamas.

Good luck with that. As long as you keep pretending to bribe them with military and humanitarian aid and engage in "constructive dialog," they will continue to pretend to be right reasonable fellows.

:nods:

Tell you what, let's nuk'em!

That'd solve it. Who cares about all the collateral damage - tough shit, so long as it's not in my back yard.

Better still, let's send in ground forces to foreign countries and impose our will on them. That works real good. The results in Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam have been spectacular.

Let's ignore the fact we can;t police the whole world so states like Iran have benefitted from our ill-thought out foreign policy with those 'pesky Muslims'. Yeah they're all Muslims they're all extremists and murdering terrorists aren't they?

See the problem champ?

Apart from nuclear hollocaust the hawks have shot their bolt and come up with zip.

Time to try another tack.

 

[Wat_Tyler]

You promised me it would be stimulating!!!

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

If the events in the Middle West are sometimes surprising, those in the Middle East, which grow ever more bloody and chaotic, are not. I never shared the view that these countries could go from backward autocratic states to democracies in the time frame the cheerleaders for the "dignity revolution" imagined. I did not see that it was in our interest to unceremoniously dump Mubarak or aid those who were deposing Gaddafi, both of whom, it seemed to me, were cooperating with us as much as could be expected at the time they were deposed.

I think Americans as a general rule, and this administration in particular, vastly underestimate the preconditions necessary for successful democracy, These are, as Matthew R.J. Brodsky writes

"a vibrant civil society, state institutions, a strong middle class, respect for the rule of law, concepts of individual liberty, and an independent judiciary."

To these factors, I'd add the ability to self-organize and take initiative to accomplish general ends for the betterment of society at large, not just one's family or tribe.

A quick review of the state of matters in the Middle East shows that the Arab Spring, the hope of so many, has been a gigantic flop, a diplomatic Solyndra in which for ill-considered ideological reasons we poured a lot into a cause that was hopeless from the outset.

It began in Libyan towns. As William Jacobson notes, those in the West who supported the uprising, like Roger Cohen of the New York Times, asserted the phrase "the Arab street" was no longer relevant and hailed the country's multiple advantages as the harbinger of a democratic Arab society:

Tunisia has a lot going for it in this quest: high levels of education, emancipated women encouraged over decades to use birth control, manageable size, and an Islamist movement that Michael Willis, a North Africa expert at St. Antony's College, Oxford, described as "perhaps the mildest and most pragmatic around." Their exiled leader, Rached Ghannouchi, has been multiplying conciliatory statements. A democratic Tunisia can do the Turkish thing. There will, in coming weeks, be agents provocateurs bent on the worst, and the usual Muslim-hating naysayers. Arab democracy is threatening to a host of vested interests and glib clichés.

Today, as Jacobson observes, the country is an Islamist nightmare. It is undemocratic. It no longer has a thriving tourist industry; there is no improved constitution, where once the economy was corrupt, at this point it is simply tanking. What human and women's rights once existed are now in jeopardy. The citizens are worse off than before, they are jobless and angry and out of patience.

In Libya, the attack on our facilities in Benghazi and murder of our ambassador and three other Americans in an event about which our own government has been serially lying, doesn't inspire confidence that the Islamists will fail to take over. This week the New York Times awoke from its dream world long enough to note that some of the weapons we provided to the Libyan rebels have, in fact, fallen into the hands of Al Qaeda.

And then there is Egypt and Syria about which Dan Greenfield at FrontPage paints a grim, but I think accurate, picture:

In Egypt, protests followed by elections were enough to allow the Salafis, a category that includes the Muslim Brotherhood, to take over. That was also true in Tunisia. In Libya, a new American client, the government put up a fight, little realizing that Obama wasn't Putin. Instead of getting American backing, Gaddafi got American bombs, and the Islamist militias, armed and funded by Qatar with Obama's blessing, got Libya. In Benghazi they repaid the help they received from Obama and Stevens by humiliating the former and murdering the latter.

In Syria, the Muslim Brotherhood's militias are racing the Al-Qaeda linked militias to the finish line in Damascus, while Western pundits prattle reassuringly about a moderate and secular Syrian opposition, which is as moderate and secular as Egypt's Morsi.

Declining empires want stability without war and they are willing to cut a deal with anyone on the way up who has a large enough army and will promise to keep the peace. It's hard to imagine a more decadent strategy than trying to outsource your defense policy to the least evil of your enemies, but variations on that theme have been the American defense strategy since the Salafi terror attacks of September 11.[snip]

After a decade of trying to divide the Islamist sheep from the Islamist goats, feeding billions to Pakistan to fight terror, extraditing Gitmo terrorists to revolving door rehabilitation programs run by Saudi Arabia, setting up a Palestinian state, making nice to Muslim Brotherhood front groups at home and then setting up the Muslim Brotherhood with a few choice countries of their own in the Middle East; the United States is less secure than ever for trying to appease its way out of the Salafi crusade.

This week Egypt's Morsi was forced out of his palace by crowds infuriated at his effort to geld the judiciary and grant himself and his Islamist backers ever-greater sway over his countrymen. In Syria it appears that Assad's forces may be about to use chemical weapons (apparently shipped him by Saddam Hussein as Iraq was being invaded) against his own people. He's been forced out of the capital. Anna Wintour, the Vogue editor and Obama campaign bundler who did so much to soften Assad's image, is reputedly in line to be nominated for an ambassadorship. Presumably not to Syria.

Clarice Feldman
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/12/slouching_toward_damascus.html

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Tell you what, let's nuk'em!

That'd solve it. Who cares about all the collateral damage - tough shit, so long as it's not in my back yard.

Better still, let's send in ground forces to foreign countries and impose our will on them. That works real good. The results in Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam have been spectacular.

Let's ignore the fact we can;t police the whole world so states like Iran have benefitted from our ill-thought out foreign policy with those 'pesky Muslims'. Yeah they're all Muslims they're all extremists and murdering terrorists aren't they?

See the problem champ?

Apart from nuclear hollocaust the hawks have shot their bolt and come up with zip.

Time to try another tack.

I offered only one solution for the problem, you know what that is. At the time the Left was cheering the ouster of M&M, we kept trying to remind them of the effect they had on Iran, but with each generation of the highly educated in our great universities there is this hubris that they know everything and that their best intentions will be played out because of the glory of their generational evolution into a form of humanity never before seen upon the world's stage as measured by the power of their telephones and the soothing tones of Siri's directions.

We said your Arab Spring would never evolve into a Democracy, that it would, instead, devolve into a Sharia Winter because that is the only organizational factor binding the tribes together. We backed the enemies of world-wide Liberty because of perceived "local" tyrannies...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

You promised me it would be stimulating!!!

Are you not entertained?

 

[Wat_Tyler]

Are you not entertained?

Is she sitting on me? Maybe . . . .


If not, then less so.


But it is fun to put words into her mouth.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

I shall give her words of jerked beef for her mouth and hot irons for her other holes...



So she won't run out.

 

[Exquisition]

Clarice Feldman
http://www.americanthinker.com/2012/12/slouching_toward_damascus.html

Do you go on any other sources beside the great American Thinker? Might be an idea to find some trusted sources beyond US borders?

So let's nukem

America and Europe are busted flushes economically. We can't go in and impose via the ground let's drop some bombs, no one 'll mind!

Let's wipe out 1.2b Muslims - that's the dream eh?

Educated stakeholders don't tend to fight causes because there are none to fight.

I'm surprised you;ve not come u pwith anything credible besides more hawkish policies (who's going to pay for those btw?).

I might have expected a suggestion, maybe - beefing up intelligence and infiltration capability, funding and education..... but it's the same old same old.

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

If that doesn't work, try something else. No point in making a fool of yourself.

 

[Exquisition]

I offered only one solution for the problem, you know what that is. At the time the Left was cheering the ouster of M&M, we kept trying to remind them of the effect they had on Iran, but with each generation of the highly educated in our great universities there is this hubris that they know everything and that their best intentions will be played out because of the glory of their generational evolution into a form of humanity never before seen upon the world's stage as measured by the power of their telephones and the soothing tones of Siri's directions.

We said your Arab Spring would never evolve into a Democracy, that it would, instead, devolve into a Sharia Winter because that is the only organizational factor binding the tribes together. We backed the enemies of world-wide Liberty because of perceived "local" tyrannies...

Nope, can't see a solution being offered there. There's lots of attacking the 'lefties' which you seem to enjoy but no solution.

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Nope, can't see a solution being offered there. There's lots of attacking the 'lefties' which you seem to enjoy but no solution.

I gave you my solution several days ago, you read it, we discussed it.

It will never happen, but at least it is based in reality and the way people actually behave and think. I know how these clowns think, I used to train their officers when they were at Fort Leavenworth. I would go crazy during Ramadan and push up the rate of training just to watch them idiotically dehydrate themselves in the name of Allah...

Truly, do you think that's what Saladin did when he marched the Christians out into the desert, "Wait men, don't drink, it's RAMADAN!"

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Tell you what, let's nuk'em!

That'd solve it. Who cares about all the collateral damage - tough shit, so long as it's not in my back yard.

Better still, let's send in ground forces to foreign countries and impose our will on them. That works real good. The results in Afghanistan, Iraq and Vietnam have been spectacular.

Let's ignore the fact we can;t police the whole world so states like Iran have benefitted from our ill-thought out foreign policy with those 'pesky Muslims'. Yeah they're all Muslims they're all extremists and murdering terrorists aren't they?

See the problem champ?

Apart from nuclear hollocaust the hawks have shot their bolt and come up with zip.

Time to try another tack.

Do you go on any other sources beside the great American Thinker? Might be an idea to find some trusted sources beyond US borders?

So let's nukem

America and Europe are busted flushes economically. We can't go in and impose via the ground let's drop some bombs, no one 'll mind!

Let's wipe out 1.2b Muslims - that's the dream eh?

Educated stakeholders don't tend to fight causes because there are none to fight.

I'm surprised you;ve not come u pwith anything credible besides more hawkish policies (who's going to pay for those btw?).

I might have expected a suggestion, maybe - beefing up intelligence and infiltration capability, funding and education..... but it's the same old same old.

If at first you don't succeed, try, try again.

If that doesn't work, try something else. No point in making a fool of yourself.

None of this is reason. I shall not respond to you when you are in this state.

merc is lurking around and trolling; he's the guy you want to talk to, this is his style and he is acting rather lonely.

"Education is the ability to listen to almost anything without losing your temper or your self-confidence."
Robert Frost

 

[Exquisition]

I used to train their officers when they were at Fort Leavenworth. I would go crazy during Ramadan and push up the rate of training just to watch them idiotically dehydrate themselves in the name of Allah...

You sound no better than them and just as extreme in your thinking (and actions).

Sounds like you group all 'Muslims' together and tar them with the same brush. That's pure ignorance, in your case, willful ignorance. Ignorance comes from a lack of understanding and education.

"Know thine enemy."

If you were in the military this was presumably high up the list of 'need to knows'. You cannot know your enemy by taken a closeted view of him and saying that's him based upon Fox media reports and right wing articles. Knowing your enemy comes by infiltrating him and genuinely trying to uncover everything about him (without emotion and the need to 'teach him a lesson'. You don't get to know your enemy by reading dogmatic pieces in ivory towers.

The sad thing is, you sound educated and have half a brain judging from your posts. Extremist views no matter where you come from don't work. Trying to impose a foreign ethos on people doesn't work. Thinking that it's the Western way or the highway doesn't work in a world increasingly complex and based on comms.

Right now, our 'western' way looks pretty dumb in many respects if you ask me. Which you won't because I'm a 'liberal lefty' and liberal lefties don't got no right to a view m'aam.

Interestingly, you;ve never once asked for my opinion or a question of me. You 'tell' me things, and select choice sources from you americanthinking (Republican by any chance?) articles but don't seek dialogue. I guarantee your way does not work, nor ever will.

Unless....

It might work in a dictatorship or if you rolled back time to pre-civilisation, interesting thought...

 

[4est_4est_Gump]

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New year.

Ahm not your windmill Quixote!

 

[Exquisition]

Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy New year.

Ahm not your windmill Quixote!

We could do business together if you cast off your shakles and weren't so afraid of other possibilities.

Mark Twain