Free Speech

[Vilac]

I believe in Free Speech.

I believe that if you think someone is a racist, cowardly, irritating fucker that you should have the right to be able to chime in and say so.

I believe that if you dislike this great country of ours, or any other country for that matter, that you should be able to speak up and say whatever it is that's on your mind without fear of repercussion from the government.

And I believe in this message board...and for what Laurel stands for: The right that everyone has equal say and has equal ability *TO say whatever the hell they want. Even if you want type in ALL CAPS, using bright yellow text, and have a sig line that is comparable to the last three chapters of "War And Peace".

You have that right.

But... we're confusing the issue here. Free Speech only goes so far. I'll take you to a scenario that we all (most all) of us probably learned in school. Free speech is great, but if you ran into a crowded movie theater and screamed at the top of your lungs: "FIRE! There's a FIRE!" with the intent of starting mass panic, that you could easily be thrown in jail.

Call it disturbing the peace. Call it enciting to riot. Call it just being a pain in the ass to the general public at large. I don't care.

Free Speech is one thing. Intentionally inflicting emotional hurt over and over again is another.

I'm all for Free Speech. I'm not for someone being able to run around like the A.D.D. poster child spewing hate and intentionally causing problems when none need to exist.

If you agree with me, let me know.

If you don't agree? Well... that's the power of Free Speech for you, now isn't it?

V~

 

[DarkAngel]

meow

 

[Angel]

Where do you draw the line?

Once you draw the line, how do you enforce it?

Is that the direction you really want this site to go? I hope to hell not. On a forum like this, once the first person gets banned, I can guarantee you the entire forum will go downhill from there.

One person isn't going to ruin the forum. It's been tried before, by personalities much worse than what we have here now. We're still here, and the board is much more alive and kicking than it was years ago.

 

[Mad_Jack_Rabbit]

Sounds about right.

 

[Guest]

 

[Vilac]

Where do you draw the line?

Once you draw the line, how do you enforce it?

Angel, I've got to say that I find you amazingly intelligent. But, I can see that we will differ on this topic.

Where do you draw the line?

When someone spams the board with several hundred posts in a matter of hours, saying nothing but malicious things...that would be a good start.

But before we go there....I'm not proposing any change. Do not confuse my post with asking Laurel to ban anyone, or to change the status quo. What I did was simply point out that there is a difference between free speech and what has been going on here lately.

There has to be a happy medium. I'm not wise enough to come up with one...but I'm sure one exists.

<shrug> What the hell do I know? <g> I'd be lucky just to spell all the words in my posts correctly.


V~

 

[Angel]

But before we go there....I'm not proposing any change. Do not confuse my post with asking Laurel to ban anyone, or to change the status quo.

I know, but this is what the issue has been lately. What other options are there to satisfy everyone who is offended.




Like I said. Show me where we should draw the line.


There are people here, posting every day who have said worse shit in the past than Hanns. Registered, respected posters who get respect or cheers when they spew something mean and uncalled for, just because of who they are. And yes, that includes me.


Once the banning starts, people will be screaming for this person or the other to get banned. Everytime someone does something remotely offensive, the offended posters will start long, drawn out threads (Much like the ones about Hanns right now) for that person to be banned. Thats what this board will become. Do you want that? I don't.

There are posters who have been more disruptive and disrespectful at times than Hanns was in Tantanah's thread last night.


There have been posters here who have done much worse things to their victims than Hanns has.


The reason everyone is singling out Hanns is because he's so much in your face, and has a high number of posts within a short time. A lot of us have fed him the fuel to keep posting. That's why he keeps doing it. Hell, I've posted to him a few times out of boredom. He's not ruining my experience at Lit. Nothing he can do to me will cause me to leave or give me pain. I don't need a person to be banned for being a complete dick. I don't need someone to babysit me and carry away the big bad meanie so I won't cry. I'm an adult and I can handle him myself.

 

[Vilac]

There is a large difference.

Comparing our current menace to any of the other Trolls or regular posters is like comparing apples to oranges.

I'll tell you why...and then you can tell me why you think I'm incorrect:

People who have hurt other members here with their words and actions are *singular cases. There have been instances of a member being harassing on a larger scale, but not to this degree. Hanns, on the other hand, is quite content to troll most everyone...continually...without regard to forum rules, ongoing member harassment, and out and out physical threats. It's nothing more than a spamming of the boards with senseless crap, with some threats of violence thrown in for good measure. If he were to run around posting websites advertising his favorite porn site his posts would be removed immediately.

His only reason for being here is to cause unrest. I can stomach that. All I ask for is that he follow the forum rules like everyone else.

I'll be back in a few hours...<g> I have work to do. But, I'm sure you'll have a reply for me.
V~

 

[glamorilla]

no. i don't think so.

vilac is right.

 

[CarolineOh]

I believe in Free Speech.

I believe that if you think someone is a racist, cowardly, irritating fucker that you should have the right to be able to chime in and say so.

I believe that if you dislike this great country of ours, or any other country for that matter, that you should be able to speak up and say whatever it is that's on your mind without fear of repercussion from the government.

And I believe in this message board...and for what Laurel stands for: The right that everyone has equal say and has equal ability *TO say whatever the hell they want. Even if you want type in ALL CAPS, using bright yellow text, and have a sig line that is comparable to the last three chapters of "War And Peace".

You have that right.

But... we're confusing the issue here. Free Speech only goes so far. I'll take you to a scenario that we all (most all) of us probably learned in school. Free speech is great, but if you ran into a crowded movie theater and screamed at the top of your lungs: "FIRE! There's a FIRE!" with the intent of starting mass panic, that you could easily be thrown in jail.

Call it disturbing the peace. Call it enciting to riot. Call it just being a pain in the ass to the general public at large. I don't care.

Free Speech is one thing. Intentionally inflicting emotional hurt over and over again is another.

I'm all for Free Speech. I'm not for someone being able to run around like the A.D.D. poster child spewing hate and intentionally causing problems when none need to exist.

If you agree with me, let me know.

If you don't agree? Well... that's the power of Free Speech for you, now isn't it?

V~

The flaw in the "Fire in a crowded theatre" analogy is that a person who does that would not be punished for his speech, but for his actions. It's a subtle but important distinction.
No matter how ugly posts here may be, they are not causing any sort of harm to people that you could compare to a stampeding crowd.

Believe me, I understand the frustration of dealing with this sort of thing, I myself left Lit for awhile because of harassment from some of the local weasels.
But there is no where you can draw the line with pure justice, and so it is up to each of us as individuals to take responsibility for ourselves, and ignore those who would disrupt the forum. Really, no matter how much they spew, they are only an annoyance, they can't do any real harm.

 

[Angel]

I'm not really trying to compare him to our current posters, but posters who've been here causing problems on a large scale in the past.

I'll discuss with you when you come back .

All I really have to say is, Yahoo has an extremely friendly and helpful copyright and abuse staff who are more than happy to help out with certain recent issues.

 

[KillerMuffin]

This is why banning people is a bad idea:

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127128

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22928

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16624

And that's just three of the quarterly "Moderator abuse of power" dramas that happen every three or four months or so. Why? Because the CM's ban people for harassment.

You're trying to kill one evil by replacing it with something much, much worse.

 

[DarkAngel]

Free speech is a dream for those who think that anyone really cares what you have to say.

 

[brokenbrainwave]

I believe that if you think someone is a racist, cowardly, irritating fucker that you should have the right to be able to chime in and say so.

you have this right, on and offline. You also have the right to have your ass kicked by saying something to the wrong person. Am I threatening you, not in any shape form or fashion. My point is merely we censor ourselves, usually out of fear.

Lets say you unsuspectingly walk up on a drug deal. Is your bravado going to be the same as when your sitting from the relative safety of a computer screen?

We all have the right to say whatever we want, whenever we want to. The reasons we dont are usually out of fear/respect.

 

[DarkAngel]

Re: Re: Free Speech

you have this right, on and offline. You also have the right to have your ass kicked by saying something to the wrong person. Am I threatening you, not in any shape form or fashion. My point is merely we censor ourselves, usually out of fear.

Lets say you unsuspectingly walk up on a drug deal. Is your bravado going to be the same as when your sitting from the relative safety of a computer screen?

We all have the right to say whatever we want, whenever we want to. The reasons we dont are usually out of fear/respect.

This is so true... Well done....

 

[Guest]

 

[glamorilla]

This is why banning people is a bad idea:

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=127128

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=22928

http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16624

And that's just three of the quarterly "Moderator abuse of power" dramas that happen every three or four months or so. Why? Because the CM's ban people for harassment.

You're trying to kill one evil by replacing it with something much, much worse.

yeah. this is so much better.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm sure you think it is, Glam. But who are you going to make the General Board's den mommy? Who are you going to make the person who has to police the ranks and make sure they don't harass others? Who do you plan on turning into the most hated person on the board?

Do you remember cymbidia? Do you know why she isn't here anymore? Do you know what kind of hell the BDSM forum put her through because she did police the ranks? Is that what you see for the board future?

I'm sorry, give me Hannsy over losing cymbidia or anyone like her any day of the week. You may be willing to sacrifice someone as to moderator hell, but I'm not. I can ignore him easily enough. He's nothing but a gnat in the scheme of the board's workings. A moderator is something totally different. A moderator is going to be someone who is liked by most, but hated by a few. A moderator is going to be someone who has to make judgment calls on someone else's behavior that's going to be lauded by most and railed at by a few. And you know what? In some instances the few will be right. But it will be too late because the damage will have been done and the abuse of power fights will commence.

Don't think it can happen here amongst the enlightened folk at Lit? Ask cymbidia. Ask Risia Skye. Ask Writer Dom. Ask BlessedBe. Ask James Blandings.

Do a search on the BDSM forum and use the word "moderator" and you'll have a gorgeous taste of what a permanent shitstorm feels like. That's what you want here. If you start instituting subjective criteria for what is acceptable posting and what's not, then you start the shitstorm. Hanns is bad enough for some people to think this is okay, but Hanns is a small, ignorable slice of the pie. What do you do when the entire board is in an uproar and the only thing anyone can talk about is the shitstorm? You'll see simply by visiting the BDSM forum about three months ago.

Put me squarely in the anti-moderation column. There is simply no one on this board that I hate enough to make a moderator of this board.

 

[Problem Child]

Free speech is a dream for those who think that anyone really cares what you have to say.

Banning people is for pussies that have no self-discipline.

 

[The Heretic]

There is simply no one on this board that I hate enough to make a moderator of this board.

I could think of some trolls I would nominate for that hell - but I would make it more of a hell by not giving them any power to do anything.

I no sooner post in this thread about putting people on ignore for creating threads about trolls, than there appear half a dozen or more threads on the first page about trolls. I guess it is time to start adding these people to my ignore list.

I sure wish there was a way to set ignore to not even show the threads - if I were a vB developer I would have put that high on my list of features to add.

 

[sunstruck]

Put me squarely in the anti-moderation column. There is simply no one on this board that I hate enough to make a moderator of this board.

Agreed.

Why is it so hard to ignore Hanns and his ilk. There's a feature for this and it works. You won't have to be assaulted anymore.

Don't want to hit the button? Ok, then just deal with him. It's not THAT big a deal in the grand scheme.

 

[HeavyStick]

Banning people is for pussies that have no self-discipline.

Yes and no.

How does the forum deal with spammers? They get banned. There is a difference between censorship (to maintain good order) and free speech.

This discussion is one where a single line cannot be drawn and maintained with 100% rigidity.

How about the "E-sc rew" incidents a while back? They got banned. What about their free speech rights?

If there was 100% unrestricted free speech on this board who would be here?

 

[glamorilla]

sorry muffin. i'm not buying it.

hanss has consistantly and blatantly shown disregard for the rules that exists within this forum as they are now.

*posting of other peoples pictures without thier permission and

*the threatening of other posters.

there is no discussion here.

and pc...i'd watch it if i were you. a few well written pm's to the right people and i'm pretty sure i can set it up so that you become my new boy toy. pussy and self discipline and all.

sweetie.

::

 

[Bob_Bytchin]

Yes and no.

How does the forum deal with spammers? They get banned. There is a difference between censorship (to maintain good order) and free speech.

This discussion is one where a single line cannot be drawn and maintained with 100% rigidity.

How about the "E-sc rew" incidents a while back? They got banned. What about their free speech rights?

If there was 100% unrestricted free speech on this board who would be here?

I nominate you for the job of moderator.

 

[Problem Child]

and pc...i'd watch it if i were you. a few well written pm's to the right people and i'm pretty sure i can set it up so that you become my new boy toy. pussy and self discipline and all.

sweetie.

::

Easy there big fella. I think floridaguy64 or busybody are more your speed.