Form Poetry, please help me learn!!!

[Maria2394]

here is a sestet I tried, just practice, but Its pretty bad. Anyone out there have time to give some suggestions? Free verse gets boring ( for me) after a while

***********
Destroyed by lust, yourself to blame
I watched you as you cried
lovers in queue refused to claim
your kisses as you died
And though you never called my name
My ( need a line here badly!!!)



*****
thanks in advance, any suggestions are welcome as are any ideas, examples of form besides the sestet

till later, Maria

 

[wyattt]

maybe ?

maybe not my but.....

I was there watching at your side.....

My Love I was at your side.

My liege I stood at your side.

My Hopes fell with your pride.

My heart dead at your side....


Just a few .....

 

[Maria2394]

sestet

Thanks Wyattt, but I think it needs to rhyme with lines 1 and 3, at least that what the guide I found online said... I was thinking something like,


My love is thine eternal flame?? ( groan) isnt that what they call yoda speak around here?? ( giggles)

 

[wyattt]

right yeah sorry....

How Bout ....

My Love you treated like a game......

MY Love are we at last the same ?

My heart could never be the same....

My heart could never be so tame.....

MY love for you see it wax and wane......(ugh)

 

[wyattt]

Wait.....

My love you let it die in vain.
or
My love don't let us die in vain.

or something along those lines

 

[Maria2394]

Destroyed by lust, yourself to blame
I watched you as you cried
lovers in queue refused to claim
your kisses as you died
And though you never called my name
I know you loved me, just the same?? hehe..nope



thanks for the suggestions...maybe its not the last line that is so bad, instead the whole rest of the thing

 

[wyattt]

Up to you...I liked it.....so I tried a twist

Destroyed by lust, your power and fame,
I looked on as you wept
lovers in queue refused to claim
your kisses and your debt.
Though never did you call my name
Still is the heart that bears your shame.



Original....

Destroyed by lust,...
I watched you as you cried
lovers in queue refused to claim
your kisses as you died
And though you never called my name
I know you loved me, just the same?? hehe..nope

 

[wyattt]

Guess I'll try one eh ??

Something like this eh ??


Speak not of words, through lips so fair,
Through forests and the night,
O'er mountain peaks and Ocean's air.
I'll bring warmth of fire's light.
You'll feel my hands run through your hair,
Come Morning You'll not find me there.

 

[Maria2394]

Re: Guess I'll try one eh ??

Something like this eh ??


Speak not of words, through lips so fair,
Through forests and the night,
O'er mountain peaks and Ocean's air.
I'll bring warmth of fire's light.
You'll feel my hands run through your hair,
Come Morning You'll not find me there.

hey, thats pretty!! did you ever try the sestina that angeline mentioned on another thread? That is my goal, to write one of those, but since I am not familair enough with forms like these, I wanted to get my feet wet, so to speak.. got any more?? till later, Maria

 

[Angeline]

Traditional Forms

are many and have various requirements. Some result in poems that are short and thus seem easy to produce (generally a deception), while others have enough arcane rules to cross a scholar's eyes! Some folks seem to really enjoy writing them; I'm not so much a fan. I agree that it's a good disciplinary exercise, but find that I get too hung up on making the meter work or the rhyme fit to feel like I'm writing poetry. But that's me...

Here are a few great sites for learning about form.

The Google Directory for Poetic Form

The Craft of Poetry

The Wordshop

The last site is more a compendium of other sites, but it is annotated and comprehensive. Happy poeting!

 

[Angeline]

...

 

[Maria2394]

Re: Traditional Forms

are many and have various requirements. Some result in poems that are short and thus seem easy to produce (generally a deception), while others have enough arcane rules to cross a scholar's eyes! Some folks seem to really enjoy writing them; I'm not so much a fan. I agree that it's a good disciplinary exercise, but find that I get too hung up on making the meter work or the rhyme fit to feel like I'm writing poetry. But that's me...

Here are a few great sites for learning about form.

The Google Directory for Poetic Form

The Craft of Poetry

The Wordshop

The last site is more a compendium of other sites, but it is annotated and comprehensive. Happy poeting!

Angeline, thanks a bunch!!! I cant wait till it's quiet in here so I can check them out maria

 

[dr_mabeuse]

here is a sestet I tried, just practice, but Its pretty bad. Anyone out there have time to give some suggestions? Free verse gets boring ( for me) after a while

***********
Destroyed by lust, yourself to blame
I watched you as you cried
lovers in queue refused to claim
your kisses as you died
And though you never called my name
My ( need a line here badly!!!)



*****
thanks in advance, any suggestions are welcome as are any ideas, examples of form besides the sestet

till later, Maria

"I waited too, alone, ashamed."


I assume that you're talking to a fickle lover, one you left because he couln't be faithful and now he's dying, figuratively or literally. Obviously you still care for him, otherwise you wouldn;t be writing, so I figured you'd be waiting to claim his kisses, but hiding your face.

But that's one of the weirdest things I ever heard of, asking others to give you a line for a poem. I mean, a poems's supposed to be a personal statement. How are we supposed to know what you mean, where you want it to go?

I should give you a lot of grief about this, because it's a real shame when form takes precedence over content. It's like you don't even care what the poem means as long as it gets done. Poem as crossword puzzle.

---dr.M.

 

[Cordelia]

Re: Re: Form Poetry, please help me learn!!!

I should give you a lot of grief about this, because it's a real shame when form takes precedence over content. It's like you don't even care what the poem means as long as it gets done. Poem as crossword puzzle.

---dr.M.

dr. M,

Though this may not apply to Maria's poem, I want to put in an opinion in favor of writing form poetry. Though I do agree with you that it shouldn't take precedence over content!

My first poems were all free form, and, quite frankly, they sucked. They were an adolescent outpouring of sentiment and cliche.

I found that writing in forms once in a while trained me to really choose my words carefully. To distill what I write to its essence. Since practicing an occasional form, my free-form writing has improved much. (Though some may say it's still adolescent outpouring...)

It's a good exercise for the mind.

But, having said that, I would like to put in my theory as to why this may work for me.

I work all day as an accountant. My post-graduate work was in mathematics. When I sit down at a computer, my brain switches to left-brain mode. This is one reason I write all my poetry on paper. But I also think this is why it's good for me to write in meter and rhyme once in a while. My theory is that it gives my left brain something to do to free my right brain. (Like sending the noisy child to the corner with a puzzle to occupy him while the real creative work gets done.)

So there's my two cents. I could be full of crap.

Rambling on,


Cordelia


By the way. Not a bad last line, dr. M.

 

[Angeline]

Why Bother With Form?

I am by no means a lover of "form" poems. They tend to make me insane--especially the more demanding forms like vilanelles or paradelles. They cross my eyes for exactly the reason dr. M says: I end up feeling like I'm playing Scrabble and if I only had another E I'd get that triple word score.

On the other hand, I agree with Cordelia--a lady who knows a thing or two about writing traditional forms. They are great for building discipline because (IMHO) they force you to think about organization, rhythm, and diction--all very important to writing good poems of any kind.

Very often I see free verse here and elsewhere (sometimes it's even free verse that I wrote, lol) that seems mediocre (or worse) until I start thinking about how the author formatted the lines. Shifting words around or putting some space between lines to emphasize or create a natural rhythm may turn a pretty crummy poem into a pretty good one. This is also true with diction--one off-kilter word, especially if it's in a key position in the poem, can ruin the whole thing.

Forcing yourself to write sonnets won't make you a great writer in and of itself, but I really believe it can make you a better one. I know I often am not self-motivated and need the rules in place to make me focus on improving my skills.

Of course some people (and Cordie is an excellent example) love to write this way and produce beautiful, meaningful poetry. And historically, structured forms are responsible for producing many of the best poems ever written in virtually every culture.

Here's an analogy that seems to me to argue for knowing the rules inside out. In college, I was very lucky to be able to study Shakespeare (a year-long course, too--what doesn't kill you makes you stronger, lol) with a wonderful professor. (Stop frowning Cordelia, you know I actually love Shakespeare, haha.) I'll never forget her telling us the following:

I don't care if you want to write a paper hypothesizing that King Lear was really floating in space on an umbilical cord, but you better know the basics in order to substantiate it.

Works for me!

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Oh, I have nothing at all against structured poems, in fact I'll even admit that I prefer them. There's more music in them for my money. No, my only problem comes when you find the meaning or message of the poem being sacrificed in order to fit the damned thing into some some of structure. That's where the problem is in my opinion.

And I'm sure we've all done it. Anyone who's tried to write a form poem knows the compromises you have to make to get the thing to work. To make something rhyme and scan while retaining its original meaning and nuance is the very height of poetry to me. But who hasn't gone whoring with a rhyming dictionary in one hand, trying to get some poetic form to work? And who hasn't read a poem where you can spot the very places where the author went to his or her rhyming dictionary, or done some other obvious hammering and sawing to make something fit together? God knows I should be the very last one to throw stones about this.

So Maria has my complete sympathy and empathy and admiration for what she's doing. The fact is, though, that asking for people to help you finish a poem when they don't even know what it is your trying to say is kind of bizarre. It's not like she knows what she wants it to mean and she just needs a way for us to help her say it. It's more like Leonardo having the Mona Lisa almost done and then going out in search of a guy who can do mouths.



---dr.M.

 

[Maria2394]

overwhelmed!!

Thanks to everyone for all the great suggestions!! The reason I did this was for ideas. I need the discipline and the example poem I put up was just that, an example. I didnt really know what I wanted it to mean, it just popped into my head. I guess some type of enormous Freudian slip

And Dr M, that IS a great line I just had the funniest image period-type painters auditioning for the paint-her- mouth thing. I wonder how she might have looked if say Degas had painted her mouth. Wouldnt it be kinda cool if artists started a chain painting that went through the centuries? hmmm.

Well, thanks agaian Angeline, Cordelia and Dr M.. greatly appreciated!! maria

 

[Cloudbrst9]

So Maria has my complete sympathy and empathy and admiration for what she's doing. The fact is, though, that asking for people to help you finish a poem when they don't even know what it is your trying to say is kind of bizarre. It's not like she knows what she wants it to mean and she just needs a way for us to help her say it. It's more like Leonardo having the Mona Lisa almost done and then going out in search of a guy who can do mouths.



---dr.M. [/B]

****************
Also quoted previously:

I should give you a lot of grief about this, because it's a real shame when form takes precedence over content. It's like you don't even care what the poem means as long as it gets done. Poem as crossword puzzle.

-------------------------------------------------

Doc,

I know little about the intricaties of poetry, an acrostic is my limit, and quite frankly, for this particular site, I'm sort of gratified/mortified that such luminaries such as yourself, Angeline, Cordelia, Judo, and Lauren, among others are gracing this "joint."

What I expect is many non-professionals, or few semi-professionals gathering at the old word water hole would be non-existent here. What the heck, sorry to bash so many, but we're mostly rank amatuers; no real Shakespeare, Frost, or others to walk lightly around.

The point being, okay, so what if Maria did ask for a line. Is there a particular level of amatuer that is the limit here, or of a particular type only? I hope not. Maria has paid her dues, whatever the fictious amount may be. She's written poems, and stories, the one of which is a lovely item in and of itself, as good as any poem I've ever read. Okay, she's asked for help outright. If you have it, give it, and if you don't, then don't.

If she were freeloading all of the time, had done no work at all, not put in her time, her heart, her true effort, then there may be reason to go after her. But to say that you might consider giving her "grief" over her request, well, that's a bit thick, huh?

Give the gal a break. Like many of us, she's an amatuer, and some are a bit too rough on those who are tyros. It's the who's so high up as to "throw the first stone" deal. There's enough stone throwing that was never asked for around here.

So come on, Doc, where's your magnanimous, good ole self? Cut us amatuers some slack, okay? Maybe we all have our own ways of learning, and who knows where a little help may take any of us.

Respectfully, and I don't hand that out lightly,

cb9

 

[Angeline]

But who hasn't gone whoring with a rhyming dictionary in one hand, trying to get some poetic form to work?

Ohmigosh, that's whoring? I feel so...so...cheap. (hides rhyming dictionary behind back)

And sorry doc, I didn't mean to imply I think you're anti form at all. I don't. I just started writing and got myself riled up. LOL. Hide the soapboxes when I show up.

And Maria, my pleasure. I just love yammering away about this stuff, as y'all can see.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

****************
Also quoted previously:

Give the gal a break. Like many of us, she's an amatuer, and some are a bit too rough on those who are tyros. It's the who's so high up as to "throw the first stone" deal. There's enough stone throwing that was never asked for around here.

So come on, Doc, where's your magnanimous, good ole self? Cut us amatuers some slack, okay? Maybe we all have our own ways of learning, and who knows where a little help may take any of us.

Respectfully, and I don't hand that out lightly,

cb9

My most abject apologies to anyone who thinks I was serious about giving Maria "grief" over asking for help in her last line. I only meant to give her grief as far as you might give grief to a friend who was cheating at solitaire or sneaking a look at the answers to a crossword puzzle. I most definitely didn't intend to denigrate or belittle her efforts. It was meant more as a tease than as a judgment.

A better metaphor comes to mind, that of the Personal Trainer: a personal Poetry Trainer who would stand there and yell at her, "Come on Maria! Just give me one more line! Don't wimp out on me now! Just one more line, baby!"

To Maria herself on the subject of Mouths, someone who knows art better than I would have to correct me, but i think it was Marcel DuChamp, the great French Dadaist and surrealist who used to make collages of photographs of famous paintings (He did a famous one of Mona with a beard and moustache crudely pencilled in). I think he was the one who did just what she suggested: a series of Monas with all sorts of weird mouths pasted on.

---dr.M.

 

[Maria2394]

uh oh

My most abject apologies to anyone who thinks I was serious about giving Maria "grief" over asking for help in her last line. I only meant to give her grief as far as you might give grief to a friend who was cheating at solitaire or sneaking a look at the answers to a crossword puzzle. I most definitely didn't intend to denigrate or belittle her efforts. It was meant more as a tease than as a judgment.

A better metaphor comes to mind, that of the Personal Trainer: a personal Poetry Trainer who would stand there and yell at her, "Come on Maria! Just give me one more line! Don't wimp out on me now! Just one more line, baby!"

To Maria herself on the subject of Mouths, someone who knows art better than I would have to correct me, but i think it was Marcel DuChamp, the great French Dadaist and surrealist who used to make collages of photographs of famous paintings (He did a famous one of Mona with a beard and moustache crudely pencilled in). I think he was the one who did just what she suggested: a series of Monas with all sorts of weird mouths pasted on.

---dr.M.

Well, first of all, I want to thank everyone who has offered help, and lines and has come to my defense. I have not been insulted on this thread ( I thought you were teasing dr M!!), I am totally enjoying it! I am also working on sestets because, its shallow, but I like sixes.

dr M? I dont even OWN a rhyming dictionary, I guess thats where my problems lie ( giggle) I appreciate honesty and asking for a line just didn't seem right, and I know it. I just got stuck there at the end of that particular effort and was curious as to how someone else might end it.

I will be the very first to admit, I DO need a poetry personal trainer, and a physical one too...I need the discipline. I know I am motivated, just lazy sometimes and the suggestions of writing every day ( from another thread) have helped a lot.

cb9, thanks for saying I have paid my dues, but let me say this, I grew up in NC, putting together puzzles at a grand old hotel where Carl Sandburg used to visit. I was in awe of those "old" people, who read to me from books that were held together with rubber bands and little old ladies with gnarled fingers who only visited in the summer, and the library where I would go through boxes of stamps from letters sent from around the world priasing the beauty of the sweet little town. I was sooo blessed and its my opinion that I havent paid my dues check back when I am about 80, maybe then... I have a lot of living up to expectations ( my own) first.

till later, Maria

 

[Angeline]

poetry personal trainer

Now there's a career I could love, lol.

Maria, your story about the hotel is lovely. Experiences like that are real treasures aren't they? I used to go to the library every week--faithfully on my bike--to get books for my grandmother, and we would then read them together. I regret that so many kids today don't have the chance to be around older folks--they have such wonderful stories that maybe would bore some adults (who are too *important* to listen) to death, but that can seem magical to little kids.

 

[Cloudbrst9]

Re: uh oh

dr M? I dont even OWN a rhyming dictionary, I guess thats where my problems lie ( giggle)

http://www.rhymezone.com/

cb9, thanks for saying I have paid my dues, but . . . its my opinion that I havent paid my dues check back when I am about 80, maybe then... I have a lot of living up to expectations ( my own) first.

till later, Maria [/B]

-----------------------------------------------------
Yer welcome, and there are no dues to be paid -- I know cause I'm still here and I'm broke. Never had no cash, credit. Just a street urchin.

 

[Maria2394]

Re: Re: uh oh

-----------------------------------------------------
Yer welcome, and there are no dues to be paid -- I know cause I'm still here and I'm broke. Never had no cash, credit. Just a street urchin.

I'm sitting here, in all honestry trying to think of just ONE American poet who was born into wealth...Im sure someone can remember one,..but not me. All my literary heroes and heroines have started off rather poor...so, cb9, we are in pretty good company cuz I'm poor too! BUT...I'm relatively happy, despite what most of my poems reveal bout me behind my back...

Ange, I was shocked when I learned that Zora Neale was in an unmarked grave until Alice Walker took the time to find her and set things right..its amazing how someone can bring so much pleasure and insight and still be forgotten..I intend to visit her grave one day...maybe we could go together...

And that hotel IS beautiful, ( in Tryon NC) still there and a small museum dedicated to Sandburg, ( whose work I admire but find difficult to read sometimes). My Mom wasnt perfect, no one is, but she did read to me and taught me the things she wished she had learned sooner I have to say thoughm that Poe at the age of about 6 can be a horrifying experience, but so can the three little pigs!! She had a book of poems she had written when I was a child, I found it after she died and I was going to put one on here, she would have loved that!! In fact, one would have to be filed under erotic poetry she was really good... I try not to think about that too much because she took it hard from my dad for writing like that. I guess its why she had the book hidden away like she did...anyway, time to start dinner for my younguns... hehe, not so young anymore..you all have a great day!! m

 

[JUDO]

Maria,

Hello and welcome.

As has been implied elsewhere, forms force you into a box where you get to try and create something that you like anyway.

Sonnets (both English and Classic) have been discussed here at length, but it's certainly not the only form worth considering. I personally like sonnets, but then again, I don't have any trouble writing them. I've been avoiding the sonnet lately for that very reason. I'd rather find a form that troubles me, challenges me. If I try a form and can't make anything that I consider worthy, I have to try again using some approach unknown to me.

Deep inside the threads of this forum, there are some great threads discussing poetic forms. Right now, I don't recall all of the names that have been discussed here, but here are a few:

Sonnets (English and Classical)
Double Dactyls
Haiku
Limerick
Terzanelle
Acrostic
Double Acrostic
Villanelle
and Ballad.

I've done each of these here at least once, and if you search the poetry forum using any of the above as a search keyword, I believe you might easily find a good discussion on each of these forms from the threads here.

Are there more forms that I've forgotten on my list? Help me list them here for those who need them.


- Judo