It's no more than what press gangs have done throughout history.
For Those Who Might Be Wondering Why We Might Be In Ukraine
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ll74
Your Best Friend
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You're a fucking idiot
It was all worth it, just to get material for some good movies.
ChloeTzang
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Hey, no Vietnam War, no me. My granddads met there. One American, one Vietnamese. Works for me LOL
I'm curious about the people opposed to Trump trying to force a negotiated settlement of the war on Ukraine. Obviously no one questions Ukraine's right to fight it out as long as they want. The issue Americans are concerned about is US involvement. Conservatively we've spent 150 billion to defend Ukraine's 40 year old borders over the last 3+ years. Nothing suggests that Ukraine is on the verge of pushing Russia back. In fact, it seems to be a stalemate and Russia is playing the long game with its superior ability to produce soldiers with its bigger population.
Is there a limit in your mind of US financial commitment to Ukraine? If so, what is it? $150 billion more? $500 billion? A trillion?
The US, as everyone knows, has a trillion dollar annual deficit and skyrocketing national debt. How much additional debt should American children be saddled with to keep Putin from keeping the territory it now occupies after three years of war?
Money also doesn't guarantee victory. If Russia begins advancing deeper into Ukraine, are you prepared for American troops to go to Ukraine to die to defend Ukraine?
These are legitimate questions. Perhaps you do believe Ukraine should get a blank check and we need to prepare for direct involvement. If so, say so. Since we're not talking about Monopoly money, what government spending should we cut to pay for Ukrainian aid? Or do you advocate just adding it to the national debt?
The question isn't whether or not Putin should "be allowed to win." The question is, how committed should be be to stop him at all costs?
Is there a limit in your mind of US financial commitment to Ukraine? If so, what is it? $150 billion more? $500 billion? A trillion?
The US, as everyone knows, has a trillion dollar annual deficit and skyrocketing national debt. How much additional debt should American children be saddled with to keep Putin from keeping the territory it now occupies after three years of war?
Money also doesn't guarantee victory. If Russia begins advancing deeper into Ukraine, are you prepared for American troops to go to Ukraine to die to defend Ukraine?
These are legitimate questions. Perhaps you do believe Ukraine should get a blank check and we need to prepare for direct involvement. If so, say so. Since we're not talking about Monopoly money, what government spending should we cut to pay for Ukrainian aid? Or do you advocate just adding it to the national debt?
The question isn't whether or not Putin should "be allowed to win." The question is, how committed should be be to stop him at all costs?
Extremely. Putin is only doing this because he wants Russia to be a world power of the first rank once again, and we cannot afford to let that happen.
Some might argue that $150 billion already constitutes "extremely." Again, how much more? $500 billion? A trillion? $2 trillion?
Do you think the US should send troops to Ukraine since Ukraine is having increasing difficulty generating new troops?
It isn't enough to just say it's super important to stop Putin. Either you believe no price is too high, or some price is. If it's the latter, what would be your squeal point?
Sean Renaud
The West Coast Pop
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150 billion over a 3? 4 years? That's really just barely above pocket change. I'm of mixed feelings on sending troops. I'm more than tired of war BUT I'm not sure we can afford to let this go unchallenged. This might be one of those many problems that just gets worse and worse. Unlike appeasement with Hitler France and England were in position to go to war right then. So they didn't have a great choice in the matter no matter how we teach it.
The price currently is not to high even if ALL we accomplished was giving Russia one helluva bloody nose. AFter that it really is above my paygrade to say if Russia has serious plans of even European conquest. Just based on who has money and infrastructure if they can get control of Europe they would be SO close to world domination that make an alliance with China, take Taiwan and Japan or just isolate the economically and from there it just becomes a how long it takes not if it happend.
If you believe that the price is too high when the last American and European is in the ground and not a second before. If you don't then it becomes difficult to calculate because the longer this lasts the less bad it is money wise. Just keeping the math simple 1 billion dollars in one year is no big. 1 billion dollars over ten years. Barely worth discussing in a way more serious than "Did you remember to carry the zero?"
AlexBailey
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But you’re okay with Putin continuing the war? Bombing civilians and their infrastructure when he could simply call the invasion off.
You like the Kool Aide, don’t you you Putin simp?
If you think "$150 billion - which is the conservative estimate - is "pocket change," you aren't a serious person. It's a lot of money. It's also money that the US literally DOES NOT HAVE. It's "borrowed," i.e., foisted on America's children.
The government can't simply spend money it doesn't have indefinitely. Right now, our massive debt is showing itself in the form of inflation. At some point it'll be unsustainable. The free ride doesn't go on forever.
I also noticed you refused to say if you have a squeal point. Do you believe Ukraine should get a blank check? Unless you're saying that, you agree that the cost to restore Ukraine's 40 year old border would become too high at some point? That's Trump's position, too. Reasonable people can disagree about where the line is drawn, but they agree there is a line somewhere.
Keep in mind that the $150 billion bill has resulted in Russia control of 40k or so square miles of Ukraine. Do you have any reason to believe that a similar expenditure going forward pushes Russia back?
Sending US troops to defend Ukraine would be insane. It would result in a hot war with Russia, a nation with a vast arsenal of nuclear weapons. That idea makes the war in Vietnam look like a great decision in comparison.
Also, while it's popular to compare Putin to Hitler, Hitler was open about his plans for world domination in the name of the Reich. Putin has not only never made such threats, he's specifically denied any such plans. Could be be lying? Maybe, but there's no specific reason to think he'd try his luck with Europe. Russia's history with Ukraine is very different him is history with Europe.
Being realistic about the current status of the war isn't "surrendering to Putin." You can believe Putin is a bad actor but realize the war needs to end. Ending it now will require concessions. Ending it later requires blood and money.
Anything that does not lead to nuclear war is worth doing.
There is no connection between the two.
The quickest way to get nuclear was is a hot war with Russia, which would be the effect of direct US military involvement in Ukraine.
A negotiated peace is what makes it less likely. But negotiations will require concessions on both sides.
ll74
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Putin has said nuclear war would happen, at least, five times during this invasion that they started.
He created the crisis and keeps telling people that they are the reason for escalation.
Do you not understand that?
Nonsense. Printing money in excess of growth in the GDP is exactly what causes inflation. The money printed in 2020 and 2021 directly led the the inflation we see now.
https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/M2SL
BabyBoomer50s
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Your points are all valid. I’ve come to realize that supporters of “security guarantees” for Ukraine don’t really give a fuck about Ukraine or American interests. They just hate Trump. They hate him so much that they’ve become born again neocons. They’re solidly in the Liz Cheney, John Bolton camp.
They falsely claim that the US is breaking a promise to guarantee Ukraine security, they’ve never read the Budapest memorandum they often reference, they falsely imply Ukraine is a member of NATO, they are willing to send our sons and daughters to fight for a country that even President Obama said isn’t worth it, they argue that sending military equipment to Ukraine is good for the economy, and they flat out are unwilling to discuss where prolonging the conflict might lead. And don’t bother asking them how depleting our weapons and ammo stock along with stressing our defense budget extends our exposure to threats posed by China and North Korea. They don’t want to think about that.
Many in the pro war with Russia crowd also want to cut defense spending.
I’m yet to hear any of them express thoughts on what weapons they’re willing to send the Ukraine and what they won’t allow, what Russian targets they’re willing to allow and what’s off limits, how many if any Americans they’re willing to send there and in what roles, and how much they’re willing to add to the national debt.
It’s super easy to post “I Stand With Ukraine” from a phone thousands of miles from Kiev. It’s not so easy to actually put skin in the game.
Please list the concessions Putin / Russia is making…
We’ll wait…
*tap* *tap* *tap*…
Yeah…thought so…
Side note:
Putin / Russia CAN LOSE and be brought to heel.
President Biden (The U.S.) and the ALLIED coalition were well on their way to helping Ukraine do just that.
President Musk (and DonOld BETRAYED UKRAINE AND THE ALLIES.
FULL STOP.
Hope that ^ helps.
Slava Ukraini!!!
Even if we assume that Putin is 100% a bad actor, it doesn't change anything I said. Russia has taken control of tens of thousands of square miles of Ukraine. That's WITH at least $150billon in US assistance. If your only solution is Russia being pushed all the way out, how do you accomplish that?
Again, how much debt do we pile on future generations of Americans yo restore borders established 40 years ago? How many American lives is it worth?
It isn't our war. You can dislike Putin and think he's a terrible person who started a war for no reason, but it still isn't our war.
It was worth something to help Ukraine defend itself. It isn't worth ANYTHING though. At some point we must say enough. Ukraine can fight until the last man if they want, but not until the last US dollar is spent.
And nuclear war is MUCH more likely with the US in a hot war with Russia than the US not in a hot war with Russia. Any American who wants to die for Ukraine can join the Ukraine Foreign Legion, but no American should be sent to die there otherwise.
That's what needs to be negotiated. At a minimum, an end to hostilities. Obviously if Russia isn't willing to do that, the war will continue.Please list the concessions Putin / Russia is making…
We’ll wait…
*tap* *tap* *tap*…
Yeah…thought so…
Side note:
Putin / Russia CAN LOSE and be brought to heel.
President Biden (The U.S.) and the ALLIED coalition were well on their way to helping Ukraine do just that.
President Musk (and DonOld BETRAYED UKRAINE AND THE ALLIES.
FULL STOP.
Hope that ^ helps.
Slava Ukraini!!!
That doesn't mean, of course, that it ends in a way you or Ukraine want. A war to the last man can have only one victor, and Russia is much better equipped to win a war of attrition. Ukraine is likely to run out of bodies for cannon fodder before Russia does.
There was a cadre of “Americans”, with similar "concerns" as BabyBoobs in the lead up to joining the fight against the Nazis in WWII…
At some point western democracies have to take / make a stand against Putin, Xi, Orban, and other authoritarian thugs.
Traitors and cowards would disagree.
Enter BabyBoobs.
Last edited:
Yeah…thought so…
Russia’s economy IS feeling the strain - as is their war-making infrastructure. (manpower AND industry).
ONCE AGAIN:
Putin / Russia CAN LOSE and be brought to heel.
President Biden (The U.S.) and the ALLIED coalition were well on their way to helping Ukraine do just that.
President Musk (and DonOld BETRAYED UKRAINE AND THE ALLIES.
FULL STOP.
Hope that ^ helps.
Slava Ukraini!!!
What reason do you have to believe Putin plans to attempt world domination like Hitler? Hitler openly said he wanted to establish a worldwide Reich that required getting rid of undesirable. Putin has never made such a claim, and has denied any such claim.
There was a cadre of “Americans”, with similar "concerns" as BabyBoobs in the lead up to joining the fight against the Nazis in WWII…
At some point western democracies have to take / make a stand against Putin, Xi, Orban, and other authoritarian thugs.
Traitors and cowards would disagree.
Perhaps he's lying, of course, but "perhaps" isn't the same thing as evidence. What evidence do you have that he has designs for Europe? More importantly, what reason do you have to think he'd have the military capability to take on NATO directly when he's found himself in a stalemate with a much weaker Ukraine?
Have you not paid attention to Putin’s modus operandi in his reign of conquest???
Each country / territory that Putin secures / annexes is another base of operations for disinformation campaigns, cyber- crime / cyber-warfare and military staging.
Putin certainly intends to take ALL of Ukraine (if traitors and cowards let him), and he has openly stated his intention on Europe (Eastern Europe so far, but the Russian propaganda operations that have undermined U.S. and other western democracies elections suggest grander ambitions.
Hope that ^ helps.
Slava Ukraini!!!
When did he openly state his intention on Europe? Can you provide a link to anything supporting that claim? Seems like it would have been newsy.
Have you not paid attention to Putin’s modus operandi in his reign of conquest???
Each country / territory that Putin secures / annexes is another base of operations for disinformation campaigns, cyber- crime / cyber-warfare and military staging.
Putin certainly intends to take ALL of Ukraine (if traitors and cowards let him), and he has openly stated his intention on Europe (Eastern Europe so far, but the Russian propaganda operations that have undermined U.S. and other western democracies elections suggest grander ambitions.
Hope that ^ helps.
Slava Ukraini!!!
Sean Renaud
The West Coast Pop
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Its not a lot of money. Lets put this in perspective. Before we go into deficit which we do every year last I checked our budget is like 3.5 TRILLION or three thousand five hundred billion. Over three years. That's NOTHING. You have no sense of scale.
ACtually the government can just keep spending. Governments don't actually tax and spend, they create and destroy. Even if we weren't spending any money at all there would be good reason to tax. Just keeping inflation under control. Even without taxing we can print money and before you bring hyperinflation I'm probably wrong but I only know of three times its happened. Germany which was before anybody understood how fiat currencies worked for some stupid reason. As if we hadn't seen this happen with gold in Spain when they were exploring the Americas and with Tulips years later. Oh well. Zimbabwe had it and I know one other nation hit it but the name is escaping me. You really just need to tax enough to keep the money supply under control. Granted its half science half voodoo but you can get it close to right.
In theory I have squeal point but the exact second we joined NATO years before I was born we passed that point. After that it was really more a question of if we wanted other nations arming up at all. Trump is dead wrong. If we let Russia keep what they've taken then the money we've already spent was a waste.
I don't think Russia can hold out but so much longer and again. Even if we got THAT result which I don't think is positive but I wouldn't die on that hill the reality is giving Russia one helluva bloody nose would STILL be a net win. The Vietnam/Korea were somewhat unique. Our guys are trained for urban warfare. Vietnam had the exact same problem as WW1 where everybody (fortunately everybody meant both sides of the conflict) had no idea how their new toys and environment worked in real time. I'm only so worried about the nukes for the obvious reasons. Besides if we did got nuclear either I'm right and I just die and nothing happens after that or I'm wrong and I'm probably in Hell but I'm gonna go there sooner or later either way if I'm wrong.
Germany could never have achieved world domination. That simply wasn't realistic no matter what he may have said. Oceans are AWESOME defensive measures. Even if they didn't need to lick their wounds conquering the Americas wasn't gonna happen in the real world. Nuking us doesn't do them any good at that point they would be better off trying to isolate us economically SO hard that we had to make a deal. You can't gather resources if you're gonna die of radiation poisoning if you use the stuff. Realistically you've more fear that they might have some nasty bug they could send over and keep rotating from one virus or bacteria after another until we're too weak to function. God knows faced with two options, death and following instructions Conservatives are not addicted to having a pulse.
End of the day we aren't even close to the tapping point. Assuming the spending remains somewhat constant this is nothing to stress over just yet and shouldn't be too big a deal. We really should be raising taxes but hey we're dumb, dumb as hell. Some concessions may be necessary but lets face it, Trump would just give him whatever he wanted. It would in no way shock too much to see Trump personally deliver Zelensky to Russian Troops.
End of the day they are allies, we'rean d I have to believe the rest of the world has lost a lot of faith that America can be counted on. Best case scenario is that means we're gonna have to spend at least a decade or so getting their faith back. Hopefully the last few decades of positive relationships have fundamentally changed Europe and I do beleive they have. That said when has Germany arming up ever worked out for us? I mean EVER EVER. We all know if something threatens France and or England we're gonna clear our dance card for as long as it takes.
So we are very much in a scenario where it is probably best to just set aside a trillion that we know we're gonna end up spending no matter what we do and calculate if we think can trust Putin so after the hundred fifty billion we're already down how much we think we'll end up spending if we aren't given a real choice but not only to go in but take in potentially millions of refugees cus if Europe is under attack its basically us and Canada that are going to even seriously consider taking them them in.
This is a big picture sort of issue. A war is like a kid, pet or marriage. Once you start down that path you have to commit and we are well past the point where if we were gonna sit back and let Ukraine fall the time for that was 2021. Just so we could get whoever wanted out out before things popped off.
I think we made a terrible mistake withdrawing support but what's done is done and we just have to hope that this is the time where Trump turns out to be correct about something. His track record isn't great. I'm really baffled how the farmers who got fucked last time weren't on board this tii. . .who the hell am I kidding the world was on fire and Obama didn't win by a huge margin. We know who Republicans are and who a lot of Middle America is. I think my personal favorite moment from the Right was I believe it was Vivek pointing out that Nikki Haley's name isn't even Nikki Haley, its Nimorata Nikki Randhawa Haley. Bushs don't have middle names. Donald doesn't have one. Hillary doesn't have one. Trump doesn't happen.
Barrack Hussien Obama. <-----yeah that was NOT an accident. Seems like pattern maybe Republicans don't like people with Foreign sounding names. Or women. Or people of color. OR lets be honest. Are you rich, Christian, Straight, White and Male? If not you need to vote Blue no matter who until the Right is FORCED to assume a more centrist stance and Dems stop pretending they a progressive or left in any meaningful way instead of always running and presiding as Centrists.
