For the Hockey Fans: Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, or Other?

[Paendragon]

I recently had a debate over the greatest of all time. I always thought it was a no-brainer, but apparently was wrong. What do you think, and why?

 

[JennyOmanHill]

I recently had a debate over the greatest of all time. I always thought it was a no-brainer, but apparently was wrong. What do you think, and why?

There are many hockey legends in MY mind that were amazing to watch, especially in person.

At my very first hockey game, I was mesmerized by a Chicago Black Hawk who looked as if he were flying on the ice, rather than skating. That night hooked me on hockey forever, and Bobby Hull scored all 3 goals as the Black Hawks tied the NY Rangers.

The following season I bought season tickets, and I continued to be fascinated by so many players.

However, if I must mention one player who I thought was the BEST all-around player (even if he was a defenseman), I must list Bobby Orr as the greatest player I had ever witnessed.

He not only changed forever the role of a defenseman, his shot was hard and accurate, he was rugged and strong (in spite of severely injured knees), his skating was fast, fluid and flowing (even causing the opposition to sometimes just stand there and look at him!) and he was the most gentlemanly player in the midst of many "goons". Bobby Orr is the greatest!
http://espn.go.com/i/sportscentury/inline/orr.jpg

 

[Liontamr]

Ask 50 different people this and you'll get 50 different answers.

Being a guy who played goal, I think you have to consider Pat Roy one of the greatest. The numbers speak for themselves.. And just when you think he's either overrated or past his prime, he goes and pulls off a run like he did in last years playoffs, damn near carrying Colorado at times.

 

[sabbathstorm]

My vote is with Lemieux. He's never been afraid to mix it up and is one hell of a stickhandler. Plus, he's overcome a lot of odds to be back on the ice.

 

[Paendragon]

Re: Re: For the Hockey Fans: Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, or Other?

There are many hockey legends in MY mind that were amazing to watch, especially in person.

At my very first hockey game, I was mesmerized by a Chicago Black Hawk who looked as if he were flying on the ice, rather than skating. That night hooked me on hockey forever, and Bobby Hull scored all 3 goals as the Black Hawks tied the NY Rangers.

The following season I bought season tickets, and I continued to be fascinated by so many players.

However, if I must mention one player who I thought was the BEST all-around player (even if he was a defenseman), I must list Bobby Orr as the greatest player I had ever witnessed.

He not only changed forever the role of a defenseman, his shot was hard and accurate, he was rugged and strong (in spite of severely injured knees), his skating was fast, fluid and flowing (even causing the opposition to sometimes just stand there and look at him!) and he was the most gentlemanly player in the midst of many "goons". Bobby Orr is the greatest!
http://espn.go.com/i/sportscentury/inline/orr.jpg

I don't know how I could've left Orr off my list. What was I thinking? Even, if he's not the greatest ever, he's definitely one of the top few.

 

[Paendragon]

Ask 50 different people this and you'll get 50 different answers.

Being a guy who played goal, I think you have to consider Pat Roy one of the greatest. The numbers speak for themselves.. And just when you think he's either overrated or past his prime, he goes and pulls off a run like he did in last years playoffs, damn near carrying Colorado at times.

It's funny. People never consider a goaltender when talking about the greatest ever (myself included, which is odd when I consider Martin Brodeur to be my favorite player). Thanks for the input.

 

[kotori]

Tim Horton

Tim Horton played 24 seasons in the NHL, breaking in with the Toronto Maple Leafs after impressing the Leafs with his stellar play in their farm system. It was widely accepted that Horton was one of the strongest players in the league as well as a skilled defenseman with a lethal slapshot. Very few opponents were willing to tangle with Horton and his "Horton Bear Hug." Tim Horton's name can be found not only on the frontage of many donut shops across Canada, but also on Lord Stanley's Cup 4 times, including 3 in a row from 1962-1964. During the 1969-70 season, Horton was dealt to the New York Rangers for future considerations, and then went on to skate briefly with Pittsburgh, and then with the Sabres for two years. Horton's career was prematurely ended when he died in a car accident in 1974. Horton scored 115 goals and tallied 403 assists in 1446 regular season contests. His playoff numbers read 11-39-50 in 126 games. Horton earned both first team and second team All-Star status 3 times and played in 7 NHL All-Star contests. Tim Horton entered the Hockey Hall Of Fame in 1977.

And the doughnuts aren't bad either.

 

[april-wine]

Re: Tim Horton

Tim Horton played 24 seasons in the NHL, breaking in with the Toronto Maple Leafs after impressing the Leafs with his stellar play in their farm system. It was widely accepted that Horton was one of the strongest players in the league as well as a skilled defenseman with a lethal slapshot. Very few opponents were willing to tangle with Horton and his "Horton Bear Hug." Tim Horton's name can be found not only on the frontage of many donut shops across Canada, but also on Lord Stanley's Cup 4 times, including 3 in a row from 1962-1964. During the 1969-70 season, Horton was dealt to the New York Rangers for future considerations, and then went on to skate briefly with Pittsburgh, and then with the Sabres for two years. Horton's career was prematurely ended when he died in a car accident in 1974. Horton scored 115 goals and tallied 403 assists in 1446 regular season contests. His playoff numbers read 11-39-50 in 126 games. Horton earned both first team and second team All-Star status 3 times and played in 7 NHL All-Star contests. Tim Horton entered the Hockey Hall Of Fame in 1977.

And the doughnuts aren't bad either.

Who cares about hockey....Give me Timmie's coffee lol

 

[JennyOmanHill]

Re: Tim Horton

Tim Horton played 24 seasons in the NHL, breaking in with the Toronto Maple Leafs after impressing the Leafs with his stellar play in their farm system....
During the 1969-70 season, Horton was dealt to the New York Rangers for future considerations, and then went on to skate briefly with Pittsburgh, and then with the Sabres for two years. Horton's career was prematurely ended when he died in a car accident in 1974. Horton scored 115 goals and tallied 403 assists in 1446 regular season contests. His playoff numbers read 11-39-50 in 126 games. Horton earned both first team and second team All-Star status 3 times and played in 7 NHL All-Star contests. Tim Horton entered the Hockey Hall Of Fame in 1977.

And the doughnuts aren't bad either.

Never tried the doughnuts!

I was fortunate to witness Tim's time with the NY Rangers. What a wonderful sweet gentleman off the ice, but as you mentioned, don't mess with him on ice!

I remember that shot of his, and how patient he was with the puck, always as if he had all the time in world to make a pass or a shot!

Thanks for mentioning him!
http://www.canoe.ca/SlamBooksImages/remembering_horton.jpg

 

[Paendragon]

BUMP

,

 

[talk2024]

Orr

I had to wonder about the omission myself. For me, that's a no-brainer.

In a close second place, in terms of overcoming adversity, well Campbell was a piece of work, and for his sheer will, the Rocket is my second vote.

 

[christo]

If you had to pick one player to start a team from scratch, it has to be Lemieux. The most talented hockey player of all time. If he had played in the same era as Gretzky's earlier career, when the NHL let teams like the Oilers play a run-and-gun style, he would have all the scoring records. But he was fated to play in the clutch-and-grab era, and then there was the back problems, and the cancer, and now the hip. But he'll be back next year.

Lemiuex was also probaby the best playoff defensive forward I've ever seen. He didn't kill himself during the regular season, knowing he was too important offensively to go diving in front of slap shots, but his defensive play the two Stanley Cup years were just incredible.

Gretzky is the Great One, of course, but Lemieux is so much bigger and still has all the skill. Howe was the prototype rugged all-around star, but he couldn't match Mario's raw genius. Nor could Orr, probably the best defenseman ever (tho Ray Bourque was no slob).

Patrick Roy is possibly the best goalie of all-time, but I think there has to be an asterix there. Have you ever seen pictures of NHL goalies even 20 years old? Their pads were like 1/2 the size of today's netminders. When Roy goes into his butterfly he covers 3/4 of the net without moving. I don't know how anyone scores in the NHL, actually. Cut those pads down, I say.

 

[JennyOmanHill]

Goaltenders: a breed of their own

Patrick Roy has become NHL's "winningest" goaltender (passing hockey legend Terry Sawchuk in total wins).

That was then:
http://ucsu.colorado.edu/~norrisdt/bio/images/sawchuk2.gif http://users.aol.com/maskman32/swcktrnt.jpg


This is now:
http://www.physics.mun.ca/~jcranfrd/montreal/roy/roy12.jpg
http://www.rds.ca/images/chroniques/100ans/100ANS3A524373.jpg

Terry Sawchuk played a lot of seasons with no mask at all.

 

[Weevil]

I think the only credible argument for best player of all time is Orr vs. Gretzky. I think, after careful consideration that you have to give it to Orr, because he is probably one of the two or three best offensive players of all time and the hands-down best defensive player of all time.

 

[ExLimey]

I've only ever seen Lemieux and Gretzky play, way too young for Howe or Orr. I'm not really going to debate who the better player was BUT consider the influence Gretzky had on the NHL. There would be no franchises in San Jose, Anaheim, Phoenix, Dallas, Atlanta, Florida, Tampa or Nashville if not for the affect Gretzky's trade to LA had after 1988. Heck the Kings themselves may have gone under without him. It was routine for them to only have about 5000 people at a game.

It may also be true that Canada might still have a few of their teams too (Winnipeg and Quebec).

 

[JennyOmanHill]

I think the only credible argument for best player of all time is Orr vs. Gretzky. I think, after careful consideration that you have to give it to Orr, because he is probably one of the two or three best offensive players of all time and the hands-down best defensive player of all time.

I do agree with this. It's hard for those who don't remember actually seeing legends like Howe, Orr, Esposito, Bobby Hull, Maurice Richard, etc. to compare them to today's star players.

It reminds me of the Beatles' argument. How do you explain to today's music lovers how influential the Beatles were, and how so many styles of music (and their acceptance) were altered because of them.

Same way I feel about Bobby Orr. Before Orr, a defenseman rarely left the blue line. He focused mainly in the middle ice zone, with passing the puck their main way of offensive action.

Bobby Orr smashed the barrier and altered forever the role of a defenseman which affected the game tremendously.

Wayne Gretzky is "Mr. Hockey" (even films of his childhood games are outstanding!), and should very rightly be credited to exposing the game to many throughout the country.

I love hockey!! (Can you tell??)

 

[Paendragon]

Wayne Gretzky's career point totals.

Goals: 894
Assists: 1963
Points: 2,857

Unless I miss my guess, you could remove his goals from the equation completely, and he would still be the career points leader, because the man had more assists than anyone else in hockey had points!

I can't even comprehend those numbers.

[By the way, Martin Brodeur had his 55th carrer shutout last night. He's only 29. He has to average 5 a year, and play 10 more years to break Sawchuks record (one that was considered unassailable), has the lowest career GAA (regular season and playoffs combined) in history, and has already compiled 321 wins. I think, in twenty years, he'll be the standard that this era in hockey is measured upon (he also has his name on the Cup a few times, and an Olympic Gold). But, that's just my opinion. ]

 

[JennyOmanHill]

...
[By the way, Martin Brodeur had his 55th carrer shutout last night. He's only 29. He has to average 5 a year, and play 10 more years to break Sawchuks record (one that was considered unassailable), has the lowest career GAA (regular season and playoffs combined) in history, and has already compiled 321 wins. I think, in twenty years, he'll be the standard that this era in hockey is measured upon (he also has his name on the Cup a few times, and an Olympic Gold). But, that's just my opinion. ]

Sigh... okay! YAY Marty Brodeur!
http://24.43.50.85/debbie/images/brodeur.jpg
Don't think he'll be enough to help the Devils win the Cup this year though.

 

[Paendragon]

lol

Sorry. Just got off the phone with a friend, who said Brodeur couldn't carry Cujo's jockstrap (he's a transplanted Toronto Maple Leaf's fan). Irritated the shit outta me. I don't think Marty gets enough credit. No more rah rah shit though.

 

[Skibum]

I can't dispute any of the picks listed here as candidates for the best ever, and I would like to add a few names for consideration:

Boom-Boon Geofreoun
The Richard brothers (Maurice and Henri)
Guy Lafleur
Larry Robinson
Derek Sanderson
Phil Esposito
Bret Hull

And for goal tenders, Ken Dryden.

 

[JennyOmanHill]

I can't dispute any of the picks listed here as candidates for the best ever, and I would like to add a few names for consideration:

Boom-Boon Geofreoun
The Richard brothers (Maurice and Henri)
Guy Lafleur
Larry Robinson
Derek Sanderson
Phil Esposito
Bret Hull

And for goal tenders, Ken Dryden.

Like your list very much, Skibum

I would eliminate Derek Sanderson though, as I don't think his talent was as above average as the others listed.

I'm partial to goaltenders lately! Ken Dryden surely was impressive!

I think if Toronto IS going to make it through a round or so, CuJo (who is returning to the lineup) will be a very important factor.
http://www.cujo31.com/all/z_CUJO_face.jpg
Curtis Joseph

 

[Weevil]

I can't dispute any of the picks listed here as candidates for the best ever, and I would like to add a few names for consideration:

Boom-Boon Geofreoun
The Richard brothers (Maurice and Henri)
Guy Lafleur
Larry Robinson
Derek Sanderson
Phil Esposito
Bret Hull

Are you asking that we consider Derek Sanderson as the greatest hockey player of all time?

Because that won't take very long.

 

[talk2024]

and if you're going to make a list...

then you might want to add # 4, Jean Beliveau.

It really is a different era today - I can't believe that there's only one player with 50 goals this year.

And if we're talking about 50-goal scorers, how about Mike Bossy?

Greatness is relative to the league, era, a player was in and what he contributed to his team.