For Poets who Write for their Own Pleasure

[honeysucklerose]

I see new poets asking for feedback and I often wonder if they like their own stuff. I wrote this thinking of them. For me poetry is very intimate and should first and foremost pleasure the poet.

I hope it is not taken as criticism of those who offer feedback. Feedback is good. It broadens the mind.

But if I had any advice to give it would be that the poet owes it to him or herself to enjoy the poem despite how others may see it as better. If you can do that then the poem was a success.


Poetic Rules

 

[Angeline]

For me poetry is about expression and communication. I write because I feel compelled to express myself in writing. I always have, so while I get enjoyment out of a poem where I'm trying to be funny, I'm more satisfied if I feel that I communicated something well. Therefore, I need to think about not what expression or format is most comfortable for me, but what is most likely to capture the reader's imagination and make her feel what I need to communicate.

 

[Mythos50]

Opening my big mouth....

Honeysucklerose wrote:

“I see new poets asking for feedback and I often wonder if they like their own stuff. I wrote this thinking of them. For me poetry is very intimate and should first and foremost pleasure the poet.

I hope it is not taken as criticism of those who offer feedback. Feedback is good. It broadens the mind.

But if I had any advice to give it would be that the poet owes it to him or herself to enjoy the poem despite how others may see it as better. If you can do that then the poem was a success.”

* * * * * * *

Honeysucklerose, what you wrote I agree with. I would like to see, if possible, this taken another step.

I would like to advocate for is an offering to those asking for feedback to have a way, a guideline, for doing self-feedback first, so we get past the “I wonder if they like their own stuff” to get to the more specific aspect of their writing that they are questioning. I see the following scenario and cringe:

-May I have feedback on my poem, please? Is it good?- and then someone replies and the author gets feelings hurt and the reviewer receives an Ouch! for effort. Then reviewer is hurt and stops offering feedback or tones down feedback to just -Yeah, great poem. Post it.-

I think this can be avoided if a set of guidelines is offered the poster that aides that poet in doing an objective self study. A lot of the feedback offered in these threads, when culled, runs in much the same veins. Check this out:
1) People are offered either references or resources;
2) Specific help on technical aspects of writing;
3) Examples or re-writes of their poems;
4) Hints to improving their style or voice;
5) Blunt criticism;
6) The desire to see less spelling and punctuation errors.

People offering feedback repeat these themes over and over again and get tired of doing so and then fall, at times, into offering perhaps too blunt and direct a remark and onlookers get the wrong impression of the reviewer and what goes on in the poetry threads.

I think within the guidelines it could be stated that asking for a ‘feeling’ feedback may result in harsh treatment and hurt feelings.

Such a statement as you offer - if I had any advice to give it would be that the poet owes it to him or herself to enjoy the poem despite how others may see it as better. If you can do that then the poem was a success. – could be included. It is great advise and I myself am guilty of forgetting this.

Without such a guideline, the door is left open on both sides for soapsuds.

My last point and I will get off the podium.

Amazingly, I do not see a lot of this in the new poems thread. I think that is true because the product has been polished, in a manner of speaking, and the poet does like their offered poem at the time of submission. There may be trepidation on the poet’s part, but the reviewers in new poems thread do not have to contemplate that aspect of a review. On the boards, in threads, it is an aspect of the review, most times, because the posts come from, pardon the term, ‘Newbies’, such as myself who do not yet comprehend the process or are still searching for their voice.

Ok, hold me under until I stop kicking my legs, lol.

Disclaimer: This is, of course, Mythos’ opinion and may or may not be supported by the established or establishment. One we may hear from, the other we may never know.

Ever learning,
Mythos

 

[KillerMuffin]

A poem is a success when it can communicate some notion the poet held when he or she wrote it.

If you write solely for your own pleasure and care not a whit for the pleasure of your reader, then don't share what you have no interest in sharing.

 

[Guest]

I certainly write for my own pleasure and want to share the ones I am most pleased with. What I can't get excited about are points. Feed-back is great - both complementary and other.

 

[Angeline]

How to Love Your (and others') Poems

I think we're all on the same page because, obviously, if a poem satisfies you, you must think it is good and that others might think so too--whether or not others agreeing matters to you. Nobody is *trying* to write bad poetry--unless it's a parody, I guess.

But I strongly feel that writing is about communication--as is all language. Once you commit to writing something, someone else comes into the picture: your reader. And even if a person doesn't think she is writing for anyone, she is. Otherwise why put pen to paper at all? Why not just think it?

Once 'reader' enters the equation, 'writer' (you) has an obligation to reach that person. How do you accomplish that? I try to keep the following criteria in mind:
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

1.Detail. Did I give enough detail (via the images I chose) to make clear what I'm trying to say? Detail doesn't mean go on ad nauseum either, but use it where you need it.

2. Diction. Did I choose the right words? This is as important as detail, IMHO because you use words not only to describe, but to set time, place, mood, tone, voice. And even similar words have shades of difference in meaning (a 'clown,' for example, is not exactly the same as a 'buffoon' or a 'jackass,' though they're similar). The more you write, the better you get at picking *exactly* the right words. And doing so is critically important in poetry because it's concentrated writing compared to prose--you have fewer chances to get it right.

3. Organization. If you choose to write in a traditional form (e.g, sonnet, triolet), you need to follow the rules--not slavishly (content--IMHO--should never take a back seat to following the letter of the law). And organization matters in free verse, too! Breaking lines in the wrong place or, worse yet, just throwing your poem on the page without considering how a break affects a line or stanza or how to use breaks to clarify or emphasize, can totally obscure good writing. The best way to make this judgment is to read your poem aloud so you can hear its voice. Read it out loud over and over until you hear it!

4. Error-Free. We all make mistakes on occasion (lord knows I do), but anyone who wants to share poems should make a serious effort to get the grammar right, punctuate correctly (if punctuation serves the type of poem you're writing), and proofread to clean up misspellings and typos. If your poem is full of errors, a savvy reader may still get it, but do you really want to make your readers go through that? Would you want to?

And if you don't feel you have the skills to do it yourself, get help!
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Giving Yourself Feedback

I give myself feedback this way as I review my poem after I write it, and I think every poet should edit following these four criteria--or some other specific, disciplined way of reviewing. Some people argue that you lose spontaneity in your writing if you do this stuff--I say that's a crock--poems that are spontaneous but editorially sloppy are failures.

Giving Other Writers Feedback

I follow the same criteria for evaluating others' poems, and base my feedback on it. I try to send at least a few feedbacks everyday: they're the writer's lifeblood. Anyone who posts to this board should be pitching in to review and critique by sending feedback and/or responding to a writer's call for review.

One last point--a personal pet peeve of mine--reviews should always be objective. Nobody wants to hear "Wow your poem sucks." Even the worst news can be delivered without slapping the recipient. I like to give suggestions, too. A colleague of mine used to say "Don't just tell me what's wrong; if you can, tell me how to make it right." If you have suggestions, make them, but bear in mind the writer may not agree.


Accepting Feedback

On a related note, if you want reviews, great--that's how we learn together--but don't ask for the sun, moon, and stars: one or two poems at a time is fair to the reviewers here--20 is not. Besides, how thoughtful can I be if you want 20 reviews by yesterday?

And don't argue! If you disagree and have questions, fine, but if you don't like the suggestions, don't take them. Some people don't want a review, they want a debate. Don't tie up reviewers with specious arguments: give the next poet the courtesy of the reviewer's time.

And if you ask for a review, please consider doing some yourself. Your opinion counts and you learn from critiquing others' work.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If you write daily, and you use these criteria to edit your own work and critique others', your poetry will steadily improve. Guaranteed.

 

[karmadog]

The number one rule is, don't post it if you don't want to hear anything negative. You will.

Shakespeare got hammered on a recent thread, so if you're not miles better than him, don't even bother if you can't take crit.

 

[Angeline]

Yeah. And what he said.

 

[honeysucklerose]

I was expecting some negative feedback. Especially from folks who have been here a while. But I really didn't mean any offense.

Like I said, feedback can be a good thing. Especially when it's constructive. Some of you are very good at that though I do think sometimes caught up in "rules". But, lurking, I have seen some that was unconstructive and brutal, imho. I have seen some biting criticism of pieces I thought were quite effective but, again, that's just my opinion, and each reader will have his or her own take.

I do hope poets that are just starting out take heart and realize that each poem will reach some and not others and take some pride in liking what they write on that merit alone. Even if they hear negative feedback instead of positive. If you like your own stuff most likely someone else will also, even if they don't tell you about it. I hope I communicated the importance of that well enough to newbies who might lurk here as I have done, who might fear breaking the rules.

One of the worst things I've ever heard suggested on this forum is to just "throw it away."

Even if I don't care for it, Hallmark still has a place in this world.



Shakespeare's sonnet made me chuckle.

 

[honeysucklerose]

 

[Angeline]

Constructive Criticism

Like I said, feedback can be a good thing. Especially when it's constructive. Some of you are very good at that though I do think sometimes caught up in "rules". But, lurking, I have seen some that was unconstructive and brutal, imho. I have seen some biting criticism of pieces I thought were quite effective but, again, that's just my opinion, and each reader will have his or her own take.

Well said, HRose and so true. When I started posting here about a year ago some people said things to me that I would never say to someone who asked for my review. This was my point in my previous post about being objective in giving feedback. I was told that I can't write poetry, that I don't know what poetry is, and on and on. For me, the nastiest stuff came via email. I guess some people are willing to be cruel, but not to be open about it, lol. If it were not for a few poets here who were very kind to me--offering friendly words and support (hi JUDO and smithpeter ), I probably would have fled.

I have said this before on this board, and I stand by it: there are plenty of ways to be critical in a review without being meanspirited. I know. I am an editor in the real world and I'm also a pragmatist: I'm not going to get good revisions from an author if I take a tone that belittles. There are people here who would say "don't be thin-skinned--you asked for a review." True, but to my thinking there is a big difference between "This image doesn't work" or even "Your poem is full of typos and you need to correct them," and "This isn't poetry" or "Just give it up." People are vulnerable. Why would you want to hurt them? What is gained from that? I can tell you eveything that's wrong with your poem without humiliating you.

And true HRose, some people just write for themself and are happy with the effort, no matter who else thinks it's terrible. There's nothing wrong with that. But if you're perfectly satisfied with what you wrote, why post it here and ask for feedback?

 

[alwaysawake]

Being a rookie poet, I expect to get criticism...both good and bad. I don't take any of it personally--I just look at what is being said and evaluate it from there. Usually the person making the point has a valid opinion. I was taught by my dad at a young age--the only way to avoid criticism is to say nothing, do nothing, and be nothing. AA