For any men seeking to understand their potential impact on women…

[EmilyMiller]

I’d read about Kitty Green’s movie, Royal Hotel, but hadn’t got round to watching it until this week. We saw it over two nights, finishing last night.

It’s about two female American backpackers, who run out of cash in Australia and have to take the only jobs available, as bartenders at a remote mining community. If this set-up is seen as fanciful, it’s actually adapted from a documentary about two Finnish backpackers who had the same thing happen to them IRL, plus the director / co-writer’s own experiences.

Without getting into spoilers, the entire movie is about how women act around men and men act around women. Obviously as it’s a remote mining community, the guys are a bit rough at the edges (though not tropey IMO). Green goes out of her way to not make any of the men 2D villains. Even the most obvious “bad guy” has redeeming features and may just be misunderstood. Not understanding intention is a big theme.

Neither of the women are sure how to respond to the situation. Are some comments jokes, or are they meant to demean? Are the women in any danger, or are the guys just drunk and lonely? Is the banter and crude conversation just guys letting off steam, or something more sinister? This is compounded by cultural aspects, is this normal in Australia, when not so much in American? As if on cue for Lit, the use of the word “cunt” is one such area of potential misunderstanding.

One of the women reacts to the circumstances by shutting people out. Does that only encourage them to go at her harder, does this approach make things worse? The other embraces things and goes with the flow. Is that just asking for more of the same treatment? The movie doesn’t take sides. While the women’s growing unease is real, it’s never clear whether it is wholly warranted.

The movie is laced with a sense of dread, that the two FMCs are doomed and on a path to some awful ending. It’s almost Hitchcockian. But is that real, or their misunderstanding of how things are in this place and culture?

Taking to one side the foreign (speaking as an American) setting and the exaggerated (somewhat) behavior of the men, it resonated with me. We spend a lot of time trying to be safe. But it’s never clear if safety is best achieved by being a fun girl, or a cool bitch. Which is less likely to provoke a negative reaction? Which is less likely to lead to people misunderstanding what we want and don’t want?

In some social circumstances, it can feel like the hamster is on steroids, calibrating and recalibrating in real time.

I’m not in the least saying men are bad, or even that a significant minority are. But, you have to be careful, because a small minority are not good guys, and it’s not like they have a stamp on their forehead identifying them. Any guy might be a threat, which leads some women to often treating all new men (and some familiar ones) with some caution.

I’m not trying to demonize anyone. But if – in your writing and personal life – you want to better understand the female condition and maybe why some women (me included) react how we do here and IRL, then watch this movie.

Oh, and Julia Garner is amazing in it.

Emily

Note for Americans: I think it was free on Hulu, but I may have misremembered

 

[AchtungNight]

Thx for the recommendation. My advice to people in such a situation- learn to stand up for yourself and what you believe in. Trust others but trust and rely on yourself first. Accept that some people’s values may be different from yours. Be cautious and ready for trouble rather than afraid of it. If you can do that, it doesn’t matter how Hitchcock a situation is. You can win.

Also, Hugo Weaving (aka Agent Smith and Elrond) and Jessica Henwick (aka Marvel’s Colleen Wing) are in the film so that’s additional reasons to watch it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The director (who is Australian) speaking about the movie in an Atlantic article:

—

Green noticed deep contrasts among audience reactions, depending on their cultural background. Australian viewers, she told me, considered the men on-screen “really kind and warm,” whereas American viewers felt dramatically differently. “I screened it here [in America] for some friends,” she said, “and they were like, as soon as Hugo Weaving arrives, ‘He’s deranged. The place is crazy.’”

 

[THBGato]

The comment from Green above reminds me a bit of what happens to the husband in Chanel by @Cagivagurl where the husband moves from New Zealand to mining operation in Australia and gradually changes. What is clearly acceptable there is not for his wife back in New Zealand.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

Shroedinger's rapist

 

[intim8]

if safety is best achieved by being a fun girl, or a cool bitch

Are those the only two choices? I get that maybe they were in the movie, or the only two portrayed, since there were only two women to make that choice. But IRL, are those the only two choices?

 

[intim8]

if – in your writing and personal life – you want to better understand the female condition and maybe why some women (me included) react how we do here and IRL, then watch this movie.

I'm not sure I'll be able to watch it, but is it based on a book?

I tend to idealize things in my writing, at least here, so these things are not issues. I realize I am idealizing it, I want to get at other things. But I have a story working where this kind of thing probably needs addressing. Either way, it would be good to have a better feel for it, not to mention IRL.

 

[Britva415]

IRL, are those the only two choices?

What if that weren't the point, and that the point were that no choice is optimal?

 

[intim8]

What if that weren't the point, and that the point were that no choice is optimal?

That could be. Still curious if they're the only choices, or the only ones anybody consider. It feels like a false dichotomy, like there are more proactive approaches possible, but I don't know.

I mean, yeah, having to choose at all is non-optimal, it's non-optimal, to say the least, that there are enough guys around that make women have to strategize that.

 

[AchtungNight]

The film’s resolution is probably the best choice under the circumstances in my opinion. No, I’m not saying what that resolution is. Go watch the film or read Wikipedia.

For women in real life, I think being able to put yourself in a headspace that simultaneously can accept you enjoy sex and will gladly seek it out while also respecting the fact that you do not enjoy nonconsensual relationships and are willing to deter them with every fiber of your being to the best of your ability is a good first step to avoiding such situations as the film portrays. Drinking responsibly, recognizing friends vs enemies, and developing self defense skills are other good steps. Stashing extra cash and setting a budget is also a good idea. Living on three continents in my childhood taught me that.

 

[EmilyMiller]

Are those the only two choices? I get that maybe they were in the movie, or the only two portrayed, since there were only two women to make that choice. But IRL, are those the only two choices?

No, it’s a constant recalibration, as I say. How did he react, was that OK? Do I dial up or down? How do I get away if it goes badly. What does he seem like? Any warning bells?

Add on top of that the things that are on guy’s minds, does he like me, am I into him? I doubt many guys think about safety when talking to a woman in a bar.

It’s kinda exhausting. Probably one reason I hooked up with a colleague of two years and something of a known quantity.

Emily

 

[SimonDoom]

I'm intrigued. I'll look for it.

 

[EmilyMiller]

I'm not sure I'll be able to watch it, but is it based on a book?

I tend to idealize things in my writing, at least here, so these things are not issues. I realize I am idealizing it, I want to get at other things. But I have a story working where this kind of thing probably needs addressing. Either way, it would be good to have a better feel for it, not to mention IRL.

It’s based on a documentary, a fictionalized version. Not a book as far as I know.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

That could be. Still curious if they're the only choices, or the only ones anybody consider. It feels like a false dichotomy, like there are more proactive approaches possible, but I don't know.

I mean, yeah, having to choose at all is non-optimal, it's non-optimal, to say the least, that there are enough guys around that make women have to strategize that.

It’s a spectrum and also it’s not just one spectrum. There are many factors.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

I'm intrigued. I'll look for it.

It’s a good piece of filmmaking. And it’s not “on message” more saying it’s hard to know how to deal with situations. It’s not proselytizing, just human.

I felt like giving one of the guys a cuddle FWIW. If you watch it, you can guess who.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

No, it’s a constant recalibration, as I say. How did he react, was that OK? Do I dial up or down? How do I get away if it goes badly. What does he seem like? Any warning bells?

Add on top of that the things that are on guy’s minds, does he like me, am I into him? I doubt many guys think about safety when talking to a woman in a bar.

It’s kinda exhausting. Probably one reason I hooked up with a colleague of two years and something of a known quantity.

Emily

I should say, maybe not all women have all this going on, but I suspect most who have experienced some prior issue will think along these lines.

Emily

 

[intim8]

I doubt many guys think about safety when talking to a woman in a bar.

Oh, we do. Not just talking to women, but generally in an environment like that, and obviously not from the women directly. We're nothing like as vulnerable as women nor in the same way, but still.

Am I going to look weak? That could lead to the kind of attention that might, in the worst cases, become threatening. And if I work with these guys, it could have ramifications for income and working conditions. Am I going to talk to the wrong girl and piss off the wrong guy, one who might not even be there at the moment? Am I going to get humiliated when I approach a girl? Pretty big fear in any case, since we usually have to make the first move, but in a rough environment can also lead to looking weak, etc.

Am I going to say the wrong thing to a guy in there? Will we be busting balls and I misjudge where the line is? (google "am I a clown goodfellas" and watch the 5 minute video clip) Or will I not approach it closely enough, or react the wrong way, make the wrong facial expression or gesture? Cue weakness again. Will I react the wrong way when one of the guys challenges me, say by claiming it is his turn at the pool table even though I know it is mine? There's no a-priori answer to what the safe option is there, what he's looking for.

The easy opition is to join in the behavior of whichever set of guys seem the toughest, most influential. And that plays into the issue you're discussing.

 

[EmilyMiller]

The easy opition is to join in the behavior of whichever set of guys seem the toughest, most influential. And that plays into the issue you're discussing.

That’s so very sad.

Emily

 

[intim8]

That’s so very sad.

Yeah, like anything damaging or toxic, it metastasizes, and creates collateral damage.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

It’s the human condition, I guess. It’d be nice to move past it.

 

[MyBareTorso]

It's a very good film...it could be played as a double feature with "Wake In Fright" to keep tourists *away* from Australia. Also, the men in the film were not exaggerated too much at all...there are a lot of blokes like that in Australia...and I'm sure in America too.

 

[Djmac1031]

I'll have to add the film to my list.

 

[EmilyMiller]

It's a very good film...it could be played as a double feature with "Wake In Fright" to keep tourists *away* from Australia. Also, the men in the film were not exaggerated too much at all...there are a lot of blokes like that in Australia...and I'm sure in America too.

Yeah - it was compelling.

Never been to Australia. But richer and supposedly well-educated Frat Boys can be awful in my experience.

Emily

 

[EmilyMiller]

to keep tourists *away* from Australia

It wasn’t exactly endorsed by the Australian Office of Tourism

Emily

 

[Cagivagurl]

I’d read about Kitty Green’s movie, Royal Hotel, but hadn’t got round to watching it until this week. We saw it over two nights, finishing last night.

It’s about two female American backpackers, who run out of cash in Australia and have to take the only jobs available, as bartenders at a remote mining community. If this set-up is seen as fanciful, it’s actually adapted from a documentary about two Finnish backpackers who had the same thing happen to them IRL, plus the director / co-writer’s own experiences.

Without getting into spoilers, the entire movie is about how women act around men and men act around women. Obviously as it’s a remote mining community, the guys are a bit rough at the edges (though not tropey IMO). Green goes out of her way to not make any of the men 2D villains. Even the most obvious “bad guy” has redeeming features and may just be misunderstood. Not understanding intention is a big theme.

Neither of the women are sure how to respond to the situation. Are some comments jokes, or are they meant to demean? Are the women in any danger, or are the guys just drunk and lonely? Is the banter and crude conversation just guys letting off steam, or something more sinister? This is compounded by cultural aspects, is this normal in Australia, when not so much in American? As if on cue for Lit, the use of the word “cunt” is one such area of potential misunderstanding.

One of the women reacts to the circumstances by shutting people out. Does that only encourage them to go at her harder, does this approach make things worse? The other embraces things and goes with the flow. Is that just asking for more of the same treatment? The movie doesn’t take sides. While the women’s growing unease is real, it’s never clear whether it is wholly warranted.

The movie is laced with a sense of dread, that the two FMCs are doomed and on a path to some awful ending. It’s almost Hitchcockian. But is that real, or their misunderstanding of how things are in this place and culture?

Taking to one side the foreign (speaking as an American) setting and the exaggerated (somewhat) behavior of the men, it resonated with me. We spend a lot of time trying to be safe. But it’s never clear if safety is best achieved by being a fun girl, or a cool bitch. Which is less likely to provoke a negative reaction? Which is less likely to lead to people misunderstanding what we want and don’t want?

In some social circumstances, it can feel like the hamster is on steroids, calibrating and recalibrating in real time.

I’m not in the least saying men are bad, or even that a significant minority are. But, you have to be careful, because a small minority are not good guys, and it’s not like they have a stamp on their forehead identifying them. Any guy might be a threat, which leads some women to often treating all new men (and some familiar ones) with some caution.

I’m not trying to demonize anyone. But if – in your writing and personal life – you want to better understand the female condition and maybe why some women (me included) react how we do here and IRL, then watch this movie.

Oh, and Julia Garner is amazing in it.

Emily

Note for Americans: I think it was free on Hulu, but I may have misremembered

Having worked in several remote Iron ore mines in Australia.
It is creepy as fuck. There are some very odd people, not just men who work out on those mine sites.
It's also a weird thing seeing people on long rotation rosters. Some people work 4 weeks on 2 weeks off.
Companies have tried to reduce hours spent on site but it still exists...
When people first start on their shift. They are bright and affable. By the 4th week they are reclusive, grumpy and hard to deal with.
Thankfully now there are limitations on how much people are allowed to drink. Most mine sites restrict alcohol consumption to 4 standard drinks / person, and the drinks are low alcohol....
I worked on one site. 1800 people, 1750 of them males. There are some men who expected, yes expected that women would actually want to sleep with them...

It was an eye opening experience.

Cagivagurl