Flirting, and Hurting

[~ Emmeline ~]

If you’re involved in an ‘exclusive’ relationship, when does flirting with others cross the line from being something playful – to being something hurtful? For some there are feelings of jealousy, others might feel betrayal in their heart. Some might feel inadequate because the partner is seeking attention elsewhere.

In a D/s relationship, so much emphasis is placed on trust. Can you truly trust a partner that flirts if you’re hurting inside? A Dominant might be angered by incessant flirting. A submissive, who gives themselves entirely to their Dominant, may feel crushed if they think their devotion is being taken for granted. What submissive wants to share the attentions of their Dominant? They want to feel owned, treasured, revered in all ways.

People that flirt seek attention. Some try to tell you that flirting is a personality trait, as if they just can’t help themselves. Isn’t that only an excuse so that they feel justified continuing this behavior? Should it be a love me or leave me characteristic, or should the flirt be considerate of the feelings of his or her S/O and work on a resolution? Is there any middle ground if one partner feels hurt by the others flirting?

Indeed, some partners may have discussed flirting, and agree that flirting is ok for them. They have communicated their desires and needs to each other, and hopefully have an agreement that harms neither party. That’s only good if both feel the same way about flirting.

How do you and your partner deal with flirting, when posting to board such as Lit, chat rooms, or in public?

Would you engage in flirting with someone else’s partner even if you knew your behavior was hurting someone? Why?

What do you do when flirting hurts? Do you:

* Shrug it off, I can live with it
* Suffer in silence, and not say anything
* Comment on it nicely, hoping that it will stop
* Comment on it again, and again, and again
* Join in and pretend to not be hurt
* Give up, and promise yourself to never get involved with another flirt




Emme

 

[Guest]

 

[T.J. Jackson]

When we first came to Lit, my SO and I made a conscious decision not to flirt. We felt it would be in our best interests as a couple to not do it because it is hard to not cross an arbitary line in the sand. What one person views as harmful, the other might not. So far we've had one discussion about what turned out to be innocent posts, on my part , but it works great for us to have this rule. I think it makes it harder to get noticed on the boards though because half the posts by others are flirt posts, but I think we are content with where we are now in our relationship. We have no need to seek attention elsewhere.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

I think the key is communication, and mutual respect. There is nothing wrong with saying "I can't do this", and leave a relationship if it hurts you. It is also fair to demand respect. If your partner and you can't agree on it, it is time to move on. A quick shot of pain in splitting is better than years of torture.

 

[majka]

I've always said I'm a flirt by nature, but truth is, i definitely seek the attention...My husband is NOT a flirt and probably wouldn't notice if a girl were giving him the eye. It doesn't hurt him that I "look" nor does it hurt me if he "looks", but if he knew the extent to which I flirted, it would probably make him question my fidelity...something I was beginning to question myself... However - a recent epiphany reminded me that we have this mutual respect thing going on (not to mention trust!) and there's nothing wrong w/ me TELLING him I want more attention...or more of anything...whether I get it - or not - will naturally lead us to the next level.

as for flirting - I just can't give it up, say, when I'm driving to or from work...a quick smile or glance to the person in the other lane seems perfectly harmless...Plus, if they're the ones smiling first, should I really be so RUDE and NOT smile back?

*****************

"For some men and some women, one person will never be enough. It's harsh, but it's life and it's the truth.

You can mean the world to each other, you can love each other to bits, but if you're with a flirt, or with someone who's not monogomous by nature, you're gonna have to deal with it, get over it, or leave the relationship because leopards *never* change their spots. "

*****************

I really, REALLY agrees with the Fox's post....just not sure if "dealing" with it is an appropriate answer for me. We all "deal" with things on a daily basis, but I would love not to have to JUST 'deal' w/ my husband. I would hope to either get over it (but that can connote compromise, something I'm NOT above, but it's hard to compromise your inner being/soul/TRUE self), or worst case scenario, leave the relationship.

Mayberry said it well - "If your partner and you can't agree on it, it is time to move on. A quick shot of pain in splitting is better than years of torture." Try like hell to keep it from getting to that point, but don't ignore the potential of inevitability.

 

[lark sparrow]

Mistress is pretty strict regarding flirting. We can't really control other's behavior, but encouraging flirtation or flirting back with intent is a line that has been drawn in the relationship... what is excessive can be a bit blurred and subjective. Communication is always open if one of us is really bothered. From Her to me, it means stop and do not repeat, from me to Her it means She will consider my feelings.

 

[psiberzerker]

Flirting is a good way to make your partner jealous. As I've posted in a similar thread, jealousy is a way to exersize controll in a relationship. It goes straight to the core issues of abandonment, and disposability that the Ds relationship fosters.
As people have posted, there are some that say they are incapable of fidelity. Phagh, I'm not naturally monogamous, but I sure don't have trouble with it in an exclusive relationship. People who are incapable are either too weak to controll themselves, or seeing what they can get away with.
Dominants can overcome this in submissives by controlling it for them. Submissives have a bit more of a challenge, because the dominant will usually rebel at any efforts in that direction. The last resort is leaving entirely, if only temporairilly. If the eye wanders, so should you. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

 

[FungiUg]

I think trust is important in every relationship, D/s or otherwise.

Like all things, flirting is something that has to be discussed and decided on within the relationship. There are no hard and fast rules -- what works in one relationship wouldn't work in another.

For example, when I was married, my (now ex-) wife got jealous of me walking home past a coin booth show. I never went in (and had no intention of it either), but just walking past made her jealous. There was no way I could have flirted in that relationship.

With my current partner, we both flirt, we both babe-spot (even if half the time I'm only doing it to point them out to her), and we both enjoy that. Admittedly it wouldn't be the end of the world (or relationship) if it went further than flirting, but mostly that's all it is.

So... it just depends on the two (or more) people in the relationship. Discuss, and see what works for you.

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

<snip>

If I was the significant other of someone who flirted or had a fling now and then, all I would ask is that he did it discreetly.

Hi, foxinsox... Thank you for posting.

I think using discretion could be a good resolution for some. If both parties are ok with this, why not restrict flirting to E-mails or PM's? This way, the non-flirting partner wouldn't have to deal with the emotional aspect of flirting posts in the public eye.

I think that there's a 'double whammy' when online flirting occurs. Not only may the non-flirting partner be hurt by the content of the post, but the one doing the flirting gives the impression that they don't care about the other partner. Doesn't respect them as they should. I might tend to lose respect for someone (in an exclusive relationship) that flirts constantly with others. Granted, some may have an agreement that flirting is all right... but the way that I feel about it, personally, colors the way I percieve them to be.

In public, using discretion seems almost too easy. Leave the room, make a phone call or send an E-mail. If your partner is easily hurt by your flirting nature, then make a conscious decision to not subject them to it. It may take some work, but so does maintaining all aspects of the relationship.

The only problem that I see, when exercising discretion, would be if the flirting partner pursues his or her flirting without the knowledge of their significant other, or spouse. That, of course, could prove to be destructive in the long run.


Emme

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

When we first came to Lit, my SO and I made a conscious decision not to flirt. We felt it would be in our best interests as a couple to not do it because it is hard to not cross an arbitary line in the sand. What one person views as harmful, the other might not. So far we've had one discussion about what turned out to be innocent posts, on my part , but it works great for us to have this rule. I think it makes it harder to get noticed on the boards though because half the posts by others are flirt posts, but I think we are content with where we are now in our relationship. We have no need to seek attention elsewhere.

I think that it's wonderful that the two of you established 'rules' before you started posting together as a couple. And yes, how true - "what one person views as harmful the other may not." If we could only see through the eyes of others, and experience their feelings, too.

I especially liked this statement of yours: " ...I think we are content with where we are now in our relationship. We have no need to seek attention elsewhere." How lucky you are to have reached that point in your relationship. So many never make it past the BS to that place where they feel truly secure.

By the way, your avatar is a hoot! It's wonderful!

 

[emer]

as for flirting - I just can't give it up, say, when I'm driving to or from work...a quick smile or glance to the person in the other lane seems perfectly harmless...Plus, if they're the ones smiling first, should I really be so RUDE and NOT smile back?

majka,

Were you raised in the South? That's not flirting (imho), just being friendly. I do that and more, always have ... address men as Sir and women as Ma'am. I never equated this with my sexuality ... just remember the swats I got from mom if I didn't remember my manners. (second thought ... maybe it does have something to do with my sexuality!)

If I know I'm loved and cherished, jealousy never enters the picture ... doesn't matter if he's just flirting or has been "with her". When that ugly monster does rear its head I know I need to rethink the relationship ... something is wrong and we need to talk.

emer

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

I think the key is communication, and mutual respect. There is nothing wrong with saying "I can't do this", and leave a relationship if it hurts you. It is also fair to demand respect. If your partner and you can't agree on it, it is time to move on. A quick shot of pain in splitting is better than years of torture.

Thank you for leaving your thoughts, Johnny. Yes, moving on is always an option. If the two involved don't posess the same level of emotional maturity, there's little hope for the relationship anyway.

Would you mind if I asked you a question? Hypothetically, of course... I'm picking on you because you are a guy. *grins*

If you were the partner whose flirting was affecting your relationship, what would you see as the best approach for your partner to take when demanding your respect? Losing one's temper, whining and crying is obviously not constructive. In the real world, how would you like to see a discussion about your flirting opened for dialogue?

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

I've always said I'm a flirt by nature, but truth is, i definitely seek the attention...My husband is NOT a flirt and probably wouldn't notice if a girl were giving him the eye. It doesn't hurt him that I "look" nor does it hurt me if he "looks", but if he knew the extent to which I flirted, it would probably make him question my fidelity...something I was beginning to question myself... However - a recent epiphany reminded me that we have this mutual respect thing going on (not to mention trust!) and there's nothing wrong w/ me TELLING him I want more attention...or more of anything...whether I get it - or not - will naturally lead us to the next level.

as for flirting - I just can't give it up, say, when I'm driving to or from work...a quick smile or glance to the person in the other lane seems perfectly harmless...Plus, if they're the ones smiling first, should I really be so RUDE and NOT smile back?

Thank you for your reply, majka. You've brought something up that I may have missed in the opening post. Is someone that flirts simply asking for more attention than they are receiving from their partner? Or are the motivations for flirting as varied as the reasons why some are hurt by it?

I think it's great that you were able to tell your husband of your need for more attention. Life itself can be a very hectic, and remembering to give your partner the attention that they need can be easily overlooked when you come home from work exhausted. Especially if the two of you have children to deal with every day. "Thou shalt make your partner feel needed and loved on a daily basis" should have been scratched into that stone tablet as the 11th Commandment.

I'm with emer, I don't see what you described in your last paragraph as flirting. The looks, the smiles that you flash at the stranger in the next car are just a part of the way in which you enjoy life. Sometimes, something as little as a smile from a stranger can brighten your entire day.

Emme

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

Re: Re: Flirting, and Hurting

Mistress is pretty strict regarding flirting. We can't really control other's behavior, but encouraging flirtation or flirting back with intent is a line that has been drawn in the relationship... what is excessive can be a bit blurred and subjective. Communication is always open if one of us is really bothered. From Her to me, it means stop and do not repeat, from me to Her it means She will consider my feelings.

Thank you for sharing how you and Mistress deal with flirting, lark sparrow.

So, what works for the two of you is drawing the line at encouraging others to participate, or flirting with the intent of starting or pursuing another relationship, be it emotional or physical. It's wonderful that the two of you are able to communicate, and that both of you are able to consider each others feelings when dealing with the issue of flirting.

You brought up something very important, the word 'intent'. What is the intent of the flirting? Is it only to seek attention? Are they engaging in flirting to fill an emotional void?

What if the partner is flirting with the intent to pursue a new, or an additional relationship? They may say that their flirting is harmless and means nothing, but there are some people out there that lie about it. They may not want to lose one partner until the new one is a done deal... having your cake, and eating it too. They are pretty sorry individuals, but they do exist and being aware of this type of behavior is important.

Forgive me, I'm not trying to take this discussion in a negative direction. I'm only trying to cover different motivations, find the different ways in which people deal with flirting, and explore the many solutions that work for others.

Emme

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

Flirting is a good way to make your partner jealous. As I've posted in a similar thread, jealousy is a way to exersize controll in a relationship. It goes straight to the core issues of abandonment, and disposability that the Ds relationship fosters.
As people have posted, there are some that say they are incapable of fidelity. Phagh, I'm not naturally monogamous, but I sure don't have trouble with it in an exclusive relationship. People who are incapable are either too weak to controll themselves, or seeing what they can get away with.
Dominants can overcome this in submissives by controlling it for them. Submissives have a bit more of a challenge, because the dominant will usually rebel at any efforts in that direction. The last resort is leaving entirely, if only temporairilly. If the eye wanders, so should you. Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.

You've made a really strong post here. One thing stands out is attempting to control the relationship by making the other partner jealous - and doing so on purpose.

You'd think that we'd all be adult enough to not have to play those childish games, but you see it all of the time. Maybe even moreso at Lit, where hundreds of couples, in various stages of their relationships, post every day.

Flirting with the intent to make another jealous is like playing Russian roulette. It's only a matter of time until you shoot your yourself in the heart, and lose everything because of it.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Thank you for leaving your thoughts, Johnny. Yes, moving on is always an option. If the two involved don't posess the same level of emotional maturity, there's little hope for the relationship anyway.

Would you mind if I asked you a question? Hypothetically, of course... I'm picking on you because you are a guy. *grins*

If you were the partner whose flirting was affecting your relationship, what would you see as the best approach for your partner to take when demanding your respect? Losing one's temper, whining and crying is obviously not constructive. In the real world, how would you like to see a discussion about your flirting opened for dialogue?

Hypothetically? I expect my partner to approach me about it as an adult. "Johnny, can we talk for a minute? I know you do this, and I don't think you mean it to hurt me, but it does. Can we work on this together?" Something that really does help when approaching someone like me about this is to emphasize your feelings, rather than my actions. Don't make it about how I'm doing wrong, make it about how you are hurt by it, and I'm alot more likely to listen, and care.

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

I think trust is important in every relationship, D/s or otherwise.

Like all things, flirting is something that has to be discussed and decided on within the relationship. There are no hard and fast rules -- what works in one relationship wouldn't work in another.

For example, when I was married, my (now ex-) wife got jealous of me walking home past a coin booth show. I never went in (and had no intention of it either), but just walking past made her jealous. There was no way I could have flirted in that relationship.

With my current partner, we both flirt, we both babe-spot (even if half the time I'm only doing it to point them out to her), and we both enjoy that. Admittedly it wouldn't be the end of the world (or relationship) if it went further than flirting, but mostly that's all it is.

So... it just depends on the two (or more) people in the relationship. Discuss, and see what works for you.

Thank you for joining the conversation, FungiUg. I'm glad that you posted, especially because you've offered the first situation where you and your current partner are fine with flirting, and even have fun doing it 'together'. You've demonstrated that with enough trust, flirting can be enjoyable, instead of destructive. Just curious... did you and your current partner sit down to discuss the issue, or did you just luck out and find someone that mirrored your own comfort level with flirting... no discussion necessary?

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

<snip> If I know I'm loved and cherished, jealousy never enters the picture ... doesn't matter if he's just flirting or has been "with her". When that ugly monster does rear its head I know I need to rethink the relationship ... something is wrong and we need to talk.

emer

Hi emer, thank you for posting! It sounds as if you are able to communicate well with your partner, and aren't at all afraid of approaching him on these matters.

I think that half of the battle is recognizing why one might feel jealous, or why one is hurt by behavior such as flirting. What are the circumstances? Why did the flirt choose to engage in the behavior at that time, and why with that specific person? If you're uncomfortable with their flirting, why? Only then can it be discussed rationally with the other partner involved.

 

[~ Emmeline ~]

Hypothetically? I expect my partner to approach me about it as an adult. "Johnny, can we talk for a minute? I know you do this, and I don't think you mean it to hurt me, but it does. Can we work on this together?" Something that really does help when approaching someone like me about this is to emphasize your feelings, rather than my actions. Don't make it about how I'm doing wrong, make it about how you are hurt by it, and I'm alot more likely to listen, and care.

Thank you, Johnny, I appreciate that you are sharing your thoughts once again. You make sense by saying that an understated, non-confrontational approach might be the best way to start off a discussion about flirting - or any other delicate subject. Making accusations wouldn't serve any purpose if the evidence of flirting already exists. I'm also glad to see that you are willing to listen to your partners feelings about how it affects them emotionally. I think that everybody wants to be heard, some just know how to go about it better than others. I can see your post helping others approach their partners with dignity and grace. Thanks!

 

[lektra]

I post and read lit and my partner does not, but he knows that I flirt here and somethimes chat. I bring it up now and then to make sure that he is still okay with it and we can talk about it any time. I have also said that if it became sonething that was hurtful to him, I would stop. I think that communication and trust are key to this issue. I would never do anything that was hurtful to my partner...and we have a relationship where we can share honestly.

 

[emer]

Hi emer, thank you for posting! It sounds as if you are able to communicate well with your partner, and aren't at all afraid of approaching him on these matters.

I think that half of the battle is recognizing why one might feel jealous, or why one is hurt by behavior such as flirting. What are the circumstances? Why did the flirt choose to engage in the behavior at that time, and why with that specific person? If you're uncomfortable with their flirting, why? Only then can it be discussed rationally with the other partner involved.

Communication ... lol ... we do that well in most respects. I'm still getting up the nerve to be more specific about my sexual desires.

In our relationship, I can only recall being insanely jealous once and that was due to my vulnerability at the time, not any specific action on his part. Luckily we are both flirts and like this about each other.

What is the definition of flirting? I really don't consider what I do to be flirting, its just the way I am (learned or not). Eye contact, body language, cocking my head, lowering my eyes, light touch on the arm (now, if I touch his back or leg i've passed the flirt stage!) ... basically just showing that I'm paying attention. Speaking of touching and to relate my reply to D/s, I read something months ago admonishing submissives for touching Dominants without permission. Gracious! I guess I'll just have to sit on my hands!

emer

 

[FungiUg]

Thank you for joining the conversation, FungiUg. I'm glad that you posted, especially because you've offered the first situation where you and your current partner are fine with flirting, and even have fun doing it 'together'. You've demonstrated that with enough trust, flirting can be enjoyable, instead of destructive. Just curious... did you and your current partner sit down to discuss the issue, or did you just luck out and find someone that mirrored your own comfort level with flirting... no discussion necessary?

I don't think we ever discussed the acceptibility of flirting. We have mentioned in discussion that we both do it and enjoy it.

On the other hand, we have had a great many discussions about our relationship. We have a "semi-open" relationship, and that's taken a lot of thought and painful discussions to reach. Honesty is hard sometimes.

So flirting (and more) is covered under that.

 

[Croctden]

I tend to flirt a little when I'm single, but almost never when attached. This is not necessarily a conscious desicion, I sort of think of myself as off the market. I've had girlfriends who do and don't, basically it all just rolls off fo me. I know some tops who order their subs to flirt, but I've never gotten into that.

 

[Wizard]

I think as many have said ,.....Communication is the key.
I have been married 15 going on 16 years and she and I both belong to this board and many others . I flirt every so often and she could care less. It has alot to do with trust. I flirt in board forums,e-mails, pm's etc. Never been an issue to either of us.

She don't spend much time on the boards and don't flrit much these days but it changes nothing between us........