First Ever Crime and Punishment Story Event - Official Support Thread

[NoTalentHack]

It's an open discussion and I offer what I feel is relevant to the discussion. I feel that this topic has significance because it is generally not well understood.

Maybe? But you typically take the most negative possible view. Both your and my interpretation of DeepThinkers comment are valid, I think. But yours requires a certain unkindness towards him in order to be the default choice, and it’s an attitude you’ve had towards others in similar circumstances.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

Maybe? But you typically take the most negative possible view. Both your and my interpretation of DeepThinkers comment are valid, I think. But yours requires a certain unkindness towards him in order to be the default choice, and it’s an attitude you’ve had towards others in similar circumstances.

If that's how you see it, that's your choice. I can't stop you.

 

[TheDeepThinker]

Can I link to this post every time someone flames me for suggesting that there are many authors here that are largely writing for the accolades rather than the craft?

Only 20 new followers? Only 4.5? Pfft. How dare these heathen readers not laud your brilliance!

I didn't say it was bad; I'm just saying it wasn't really worth it compared to the amount of time and effort I put into writing it.

All but one of my stories has 4.5 stars, and all have gotten me more than 20 new followers. I spent much, much more time on this story than on any of my others, which makes it hard to justify in terms of cost-benefit.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I didn't say it was bad; I'm just saying it wasn't really worth it compared to the amount of time and effort I put into writing it.

All but one of my stories has 4.5 stars, and all have gotten me more than 20 new followers. I spent much, much more time on this story than on any of my others, which makes it hard to justify in terms of cost-benefit.

I never disputed that. All I commented was that you are writing for accolades.

 

[joy_of_cooking]

I feel that this topic has significance because it is generally not well understood.

I'm not reading this so much as misunderstanding as disagreement.

But, you're right. This is an open discussion. If you want to try to convince people of your take, it's not my place to stop you.

 

[overwatcher]

It's an open discussion and I offer what I feel is relevant to the discussion. I feel that this topic has significance because it is generally not well understood.

Okay. So I'll take the bait. So, number 1 item: the discussion thus far is the relevance of favorites, scores, number of readers. Yes? And number 2 item is: Whether the writer writes for the accolades or the story. Yes?
If there is a significance, then I'd definitely like to hear it as the arguments from both sides are very relevant.
I don't think I've a specific question to ask but I'm trying to decide whether I'll move to opening up voting and comments on my stories or not. I do open comments on challenge stories and one other, have a good repour with my readers and encourage emails which come from both followers and anon. I only get trolls emailing when I write for one genre? and amount to maybe two or three at most.

 

[MillieDynamite]

I've never been able to write for a score, I have no tick-off list to follow. I have an idea, I know my beginning and pretty much the ending. I sit down, put my fingers on the keyboard, and take a journey. If the journey pleases others, great. If it doesn't, well, I still am happy with my story. That's the only way I can write for me.

Okay. So I'll take the bait. So, number 1 item: the discussion thus far is the relevance of favorites, scores, number of readers. Yes? And number 2 item is: Whether the writer writes for the accolades or the story. Yes?
If there is a significance, then I'd definitely like to hear it as the arguments from both sides are very relevant.
I don't think I've a specific question to ask but I'm trying to decide whether I'll move to opening up voting and comments on my stories or not. I do open comments on challenge stories and one other, have a good repour with my readers and encourage emails which come from both followers and anon. I only get trolls emailing when I write for one genre? and amount to maybe two or three at most.

 

[WifeWatchman]

I didn't say it was bad; I'm just saying it wasn't really worth it compared to the amount of time and effort I put into writing it.

All but one of my stories has 4.5 stars, and all have gotten me more than 20 new followers. I spent much, much more time on this story than on any of my others, which makes it hard to justify in terms of cost-benefit.

And only you can truly make that determination for yourself. I only ask that you revisit your situation later on, maybe even next year, and see if the scores improved or if things change for you.

We all write for our own reasons, some coincident and some divergent with the reasons others write. To each, his own; you do you and I'll do me.

As to the rest of the debates I'm seeing... a lot of it appears to be semantics.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Whether writing to gain approval from readers or writing solely for one's own satisfaction is more an exercise of ego is an open question. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, in my opinion.

I write primarily because it is personally fulfilling, whether anyone else appreciates what I produce or not. But I also find the act of story telling gratifying. The distinction is subtle, but it is significant. Writing does not require an audience, story telling does.

As a writer, my own satisfaction with my work is my primary concern, but as a story teller, I need some measure of feedback from readers to know if I have been successful. It's a false dichotomy to posit the two roles as incompatible.

 

[MillieDynamite]

To add to what Melissa is saying, I love research. I love finding out about what the 1940s were like. Researching what people wore, even though the odds are I won't get that specific in the descriptions of the clothes. What the cars were like, who was batting for the Yankees or Metts, and what play was hot on Broadway when the stories happening. I dig research when it's for me.

Whether writing to gain approval from readers or writing solely for one's own satisfaction is more an exercise of ego is an open question. Six of one, half a dozen of the other, in my opinion.

I write primarily because it is personally fulfilling, whether anyone else appreciates what I produce or not. But I also find the act of story telling gratifying. The distinction is subtle, but it is significant. Writing does not require an audience, story telling does.

As a writer, my own satisfaction with my work is my primary concern, but as a story teller, I need some measure of feedback from readers to know if I have been successful. It's a false dichotomy to posit the two roles as incompatible.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm not reading this so much as misunderstanding as disagreement.

No, I can tell that you are just not picking up what I am putting down. That's not your fault and not really mine either. It is a tricky concept that took me a long time to figure out myself (in life, not just writing), but once you understand it the logic is simple.

Here are some statements that we hear all the time around this forum.

When someone says "I don't write for scores but I like getting red Hs," that means that in some way they are writing for scores, whether they realize it or not. When they sit down to write, either in whole or in some small part, they are writing to get a red H. This cannot be denied, so obviously they don't understand what they have said.

When someone says "I don't care about the nasty comments. I just delete them," that means that they care about the comments whether they realize it or not. If they truly did not care then they would not delete the negatives. Obviously they don't understand what they have said.

When someone says "I think I'll quit writing because my scores suck and don't get any good comments," that means that they are are writing for high scores and positive comments.

So you can see, the topic is largely misunderstood.

When someone says "I was so happy this morning when my story was 4.8 and now I'm bummed that it has dropped to 4.3," that means that they were writing for a score all along whether they realize it or not. They're also using the score as a metric of the quality of their work. Which further means that they don't believe in the quality of their own work unless someone else validates it for them.

Now we all know that readers can often vote for the dumbest reasons. If someone voted your story a 1 simply because they found out that the lead character was a republican and completely disregarded all of your plot character development and world building would you dismiss that and hope that it gets swept out? Well have you ever thought about the 5s that you get that you may have gotten simply because the girl in your story had 34C tits, completely disregarding all of your clever dialogue, descriptive imagery and twist ending? You know that it happens. Look at all the poorly crafted sheets out there with red Hs. Would you want those false 5s swept out too?

No one ever says, "Hey wait! I wrote 2 cardboard people hooking up with no plot, no imagery and bad dialogue, and you gave me a 5? wtf troll?"

The scores and red Hs themselves tell us absolutely nothing as a metric of quality, with the possible exception of novels/novellas where actual story telling is expected and largely appreciated, and even there the scores tell scant little because a large number of people vote based on the absolute dumbest of reasons.

Then from time to time we find someone who will take it upon themselves to tear me a new one for mentioning these concepts, further proving that my assertion that writing for accolades (in whole or in part) is ego driven, since the notion that they themselves might be partly ego driven in their writing pisses them off. The truth hurts so they set out to lynch the messenger. Hasn't happened at all in this thread yet but we'll see.

 

[Voboy]

I don't think it's "misunderstood."

I just think people like to express themselves differently than other people do. And those other people respond by putting words in the first peoples' mouths.

I don't really care for that. I prefer to take posters at their word. What they say about why they write is more accurate than what anyone else can possibly say about why they write, surely.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

As a writer, my own satisfaction with my work is my primary concern, but as a story teller, I need some measure of feedback from readers to know if I have been successful. It's a false dichotomy to posit the two roles as incompatible.

Yes feedback definitely, but feedback and accolades are not the same thing. Don't confuse them.

 

[SimonDoom]

Here are some statements that we hear all the time around this forum.

When someone says "I don't write for scores but I like getting red Hs," that means that in some way they are writing for scores, whether they realize it or not. When they sit down to write, either in whole or in some small part, they are writing to get a red H. This cannot be denied, so obviously they don't understand what they have said.

When someone says "I don't care about the nasty comments. I just delete them," that means that they care about the comments whether they realize it or not. If they truly did not care then they would not delete the negatives. Obviously they don't understand what they have said.

When someone says "I think I'll quit writing because my scores suck and don't get any good comments," that means that they are are writing for high scores and positive comments.

So you can see, the topic is largely misunderstood.

Who cares? Why does any of this matter and why should it be a matter of discussion?

I personally do not care whether and to what degree others write stories for themselves or for others. IMO it's not something to get judgmental about, and the judgments offered are often mean, wholly speculative, and not based on anything other than the commenter's personal beef. I don't care what anybody's beef is.

There is a false dichotomy assumed in this discussion. You can write for yourself AND write for others. You don't have to choose, folks. It's also completely OK if you don't even KNOW why you write! It's not a "misunderstanding" that is worth clearing up or pointing out to someone to edify them. If you have fun with it, who is in a position to criticize you? Why is it necessary or in any way reasonable to pick at others because their motives for writing are different from yours?

A recurring pattern in this forum is that those who are most critical of the motives and talents of other authors are the ones who demonstrate the fewest credentials and least evidence on which to base their criticism. When you point this obvious fact out, they will tend to brush off credentials with a message that amounts to: "I'm above all that. I don't need credentials."

They live in a non-falsifiable mental universe.

So do crazy people.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

A recurring pattern in this forum is that those who are most critical of the motives and talents of other authors are the ones who demonstrate the fewest credentials and least evidence on which to base their criticism. When you point this obvious fact out, they will tend to brush off credentials with a message that amounts to: "I'm above all that. I don't need credentials."

They live in a non-falsifiable mental universe.

So do crazy people.

That's not what I said at all.

 

[overwatcher]

Who cares? Why does any of this matter and why should it be a matter of discussion?

I personally do not care whether and to what degree others write stories for themselves or for others. IMO it's not something to get judgmental about, and the judgments offered are often mean, wholly speculative, and not based on anything other than the commenter's personal beef. I don't care what anybody's beef is.

There is a false dichotomy assumed in this discussion. You can write for yourself AND write for others. You don't have to choose, folks. It's also completely OK if you don't even KNOW why you write! It's not a "misunderstanding" that is worth clearing up or pointing out to someone to edify them. If you have fun with it, who is in a position to criticize you? Why is it necessary or in any way reasonable to pick at others because their motives for writing are different from yours?

A recurring pattern in this forum is that those who are most critical of the motives and talents of other authors are the ones who demonstrate the fewest credentials and least evidence on which to base their criticism. When you point this obvious fact out, they will tend to brush off credentials with a message that amounts to: "I'm above all that. I don't need credentials."

They live in a non-falsifiable mental universe.

So do crazy people.

Well I guess that put us in our place. Sorry I managed to get stuck to the underside of your f---king shoe. Have happy day.

 

[MelissaBaby]

Yes feedback definitely, but feedback and accolades are not the same thing. Don't confuse them.

I guess that depends on how good a writer you are.