first bdsm story

[wolf2002]

Dear bdsm-fans,

Probably having disregarded all the (un)written laws of bdsm and right now also the rules of this forum, I nevertheless would like to have a short moment of your attention.

I just published my first bdsm story on Literotica and got a really good review today by a lovely editor, so I am sort of in the winning mood. I would like to invite anyone to read it and give his/her honest opinion. It would really help to improve my future efforts...

Now don't you be too easy on me...

 

[superlittlegirl]

I read it.

It fuckin' flipped me out. Not in a good way. I don't know why it disturbed me so-- perhaps it was the nonconsensuality of the sex act. Her sudden transformation at the end from rape victim to glad-to-be-fucked did nothing to
make it more appealing for me. I actually thought the ending was a rather cheap shot, and very difficult to believe. I don't think non-consensual scenes, no matter how filled with kink and pervy equipment, are really classifiable as BDSM.

Maybe I'm just being a prude. I don't know.

I do know that if I see one more story about a guy who fucks a woman's ass without lube, blows his load almost immediately, and still miraculously makes her cum, I'm gonna scream.

I regret that I'm so harsh, but I don't think it would be productive for me to soften my words. That wouldn't be truthful. But hey, you did evoke quite a dramatic response in me, so you've done your work as a writer. It's better to have a disturbed reader than an indifferent one, I guess.

--Freya

This thread really belongs in the Feedback forum.

 

[wolf2002]

Thanks a lot for your honest review, I really appreciate it...
Actually I hadn't expected the story would have such an effect on those who read it - I mean, your the second one which is really disgusted by the main character and his acts...

I sort of intended that though. One of my favorite American authors is Brett Easton Ellis (I guess everybody had heard of American Psycho), who always succeeds to confuse me deeply with his unemotional, sedative style... Of course my story doesn't even remotely comes near his work...

I probably agree with you that it isn't really BDSM, at the least it's a very bad example. Bdsm is all about controll but this guy actually loses his controll and doesn't seem to care a bit about his partner... He hasn't earned his power, he has just taken it without permission.

I'd better qualify it as a violent rapist story, a werewolf story perhaps...

I take your criticism very seriously and think I probably should have build in some cliffhangers in the story so the end would not be so unexpected. Next time I'll work on that...

Thanks once again, if I ever can return the favour, let me know.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Actually, BDSM is not all about control. BDSM is all about trust and transference of power. Control is too easily a part of the realm of "abuse."

Your story is BDSM, but only because of the ending. It's non-consent. It's poorly foreshadowed.

Mechanically:

Hyphens(-) go between words, dashes (--) go between parenthetical phrases.

New speaker, new paragraph. This a rule and breaking it is never correct.

Run-on sentences. Not good.

Story wise:

You've got a laundry list of I did this, then I did that. She's a bitch. She did this, she did that. Then I did this and I did that. I wouldn't call it pedantic, but it wasn't enough to engage my attention. I did not like the content and I was not compelled to read it, though I did anyway.

The ending caught me entirely by surprise, bad foreshadowing. It was also cliche and trite. Why? Neither the protagonist or antagonist did any palpable change. They learned nothing from the experience. The last statement is an attempt to rectify that, but it falls flat because it is disconnected with the whole. Take the last two paragraphs out and your story shows no change.

Rather than teaching the lesson here--a very unbelievable one at that--you're coming across as he abused her for the whole story, but it's okay because the slave is the master. Your moral was not borne out by your story. It didn't actually do anything in the story itself.

Your characters were cardboard. Your protagonist was vaguely developed and your antagonist more so. They didn't come across as completely real.

No doubt you'll get tons of positive feedback and get a lot of high votes. Our local audience is into this stuff. Especially if they get what they think is a feeling of truism at the end.



Check the feedback section if the thread goes missing. Read the stickies at the head of this forum.

 

[wolf2002]

Thank you KillerMuffin for your honest comment. You brought me back to earth, just where I belong...

Can't say I am happy now but I have to agree with most of your comments. Besides, I just read one of your stories (Watch me) and indeed that has everything mine lacks. You truly are a master and this time I mean it in a literotic way... -lol

After I have recovered from the devastating review, I'll definitely take up your suggestions and use them -- sadder and wiser --
in my next project... I know I can do better.

Once again thanks, you really helped me a lot.

PS: When I say controll in BDSM I actually mean self-controll. I think that's very important in finding the balance between lust and pain - a paradox I have tried to describe in my story. But I agree it lacks a clear moral on that part - it's just about violence and liking violence I guess.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Your problem is that you rushed the story and that you did it in first person.

This is totally backward to what personal experience tells you, but first person is harder to do well than third person. Simple really. It's all about developing character. It's muy difficult to develop any character beyond "I" in first person. To write accomplished first person you must get the reader to see other characters, particularly the antagonist, through their own eyes and not through "I." Why is this so hard? Everything comes from "I."

You've got a character study on your hands. If you intend to do something like this in the future--I don't suggest redoing this one, the readers will love it--then I would suggest that you do it in third person and you work hard on making the characters say and think things that are not carried out by their body language.


"I love you," he lied.

"I love you." He refused to look at her.

Same thing, one is development and one isn't.

The purpose of a character study is generally to point out a fatal flaw in the character.

 

[wolf2002]

Next time I'll dump the the '' I ".

Of course, just like most Literotica writers must have created their virtual personage, I created Wolf as my alterego, the savage & sexual me, who does and say things I wouldn't easily say and do in Real Life. I don't mind him being dislikable, he should be mean, disgusting - after all, he represents my darker self

Writing literorica in this way serves two purposes: trying to reach out & touch the reader, but also: living out a personal sexual fantasy. I guess that's why so many stories on this site are in the "I" form and are usually flat characters the wirter already knows them so well..

Losing the first person would mean I'd have to take some distance from Wolf. That won't hurt... I agree it will be easier to describe him as a 'he', giving him more dimension.
If I really want to improve my writing I'd have to think a little more about the reader and a little less about myself...

One question: wouldn't you agree that stories on this site better not be too long? I notice it's quite hard to keep my attention to a story reading from a screen.

Again, thank you so much for your comment. I am actually quite flattered that you have taken the time to help me improve my writings...

 

[porphry]

Your problem is that you rushed the story and that you did it in first person.

This is totally backward to what personal experience tells you, but first person is harder to do well than third person. Simple really. It's all about developing character. It's muy difficult to develop any character beyond "I" in first person.

I very much agree with KillerMuffin. You can broaden the viewer's perspective with multiple viewpoints.

 

[Guest]

Lots of points. I read your story and I agree with a lot of what the critics said. Some points I disagree:

Actually, BDSM is not all about control. BDSM is all about trust and transference of power.

Read the mainstream BDSM novels, for instance those on www.BDSMbooks.com, and then tell me that. (PS Not just my books)

The ending caught me entirely by surprise, bad foreshadowing.

Sorry, Killer, I like surprise endings.

Your problem is ... that you did it in first person.

This I agree with. First person is difficult.

Originally posted by Wolf2002
Of course, just like most Literotica writers must have created their virtual personage, I created Wolf as my alterego, the savage & sexual me, who does and say things I wouldn't easily say and do in Real Life.

Really? I just write novels that I think will sell. I have never even smacked or slapped anyone to hurt them (other than my kids as a punishment for a real offence) and the one woman who rather wanted that turned me off. I still write hard-core BDSM books successfully (I.e. people buy them). Writing is a craft exercised for pleasure, profit, or both; it is not, for most authors, a vocation, still less a crusade.

Originally posted by porphry
You can broaden the viewer's perspective with multiple viewpoints.

The tip I always give beginners is to be a fly on the wall and a telepathic fly at that. eg,

"Who are you?" he asked, thinking that he would love to run his hands through that gorgeous blonde hair.
'Who's this idiot?' wondered Buffy, 'Doesn't he watch BtVS?'

A constructive suggestion would be to try various other things and then, when you've got the writing going well (don't ask me how, but you'll know) come back to it and write the same story again. I think you could become a better writer than some on this board.

If you want more ?unwelcome? advice, email me.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I get my BDSM info from the locals and through various links that they've provided me. These are conclusions I've drawn through interviews and research on a variety of different people.

I don't read fiction or one person's non-fiction for information. Novels engage something less than reality, they can't be relied upon for information. I think my professors would laugh at my thesis if I used novels for reference.

However, I do admit to vast BDSM ignorance. I'm going to post that particular issue as a question here, to see what real BDSMers think.

 

[KillerMuffin]

I must have missed this the first time around.

There is a difference between surprise endings and being caught completely by surprise.

You should do some research on foreshadowing, it's tres cool stuff. I know you don't understand what I posted originally, or you wouldn't have said "Sorry Killer, I like surprise endings."

 

[Guest]

I'm going to post that particular issue as a question here, to see what real BDSMers think.

Good!

But word your question carefully. I believe that there is a world of difference between what people do and what they want to read about.

I was talking about what they want to read about. We all want our writing to be read, don't we?

IMHO people want to read about things thay wouldn't actually do. Hence the popularity of adventure books, sci-fi, whodunits, and (on here) incest.

 

[KillerMuffin]

Thanks for the unnecessary caveat.

I think people want to read about what they can't do as well. However, it must also reflect as much truth as possible.

You saw the reaction one of our locals had to wolf's story. It wasn't BDSM to her, it was rape. I don't think she read the ending. I think it's BDSM because of the end. Because he didn't foreshadow it--there was absolutely no hint that she thought otherwise (oh the failings of first person)--the ending didn't actually feel like a part of the story. It came as a tremendous shock and I thought that he only tacked on a preachy cliche to make the rape "okay."

*shrugs*

I think we're a lot in agreement here, though.

 

[RisiaSkye]

What bothers me about this story is the utter lack of trust and choice in it.

Even if the rape victim is allegedly in control, there is no discernible warmth between the characters, which makes it very tough for me to buy as a BDSM tale. In my experience, even those who play together very casually have a basic trust and respect established--in order to be safe, it's essential to do so. If he intends to hurt her and use her against her will, no amount of twist ending undoes that intent and makes it into a consensual BDSM story.

To me, this is a Non-Consent story with a twist ending, one which attempts to redeem the thin development with mild surprise. This story and others like it are exactly what bothers me about 90% of allegedly BDSM erotica--few writers seem to understand the issue of consent, or else they choose to ignore the submissive's equal importance in and devotion to the power shift. Exploitation is not BDSM.

Sorry to be so frank; no offense intended.

 

[superlittlegirl]

KillerMuffin,

<snip>
You saw the reaction one of our locals had to wolf's story. It wasn't BDSM to her, it was rape. I don't think she read the ending. I think it's BDSM because of the end. Because he didn't foreshadow it--there was absolutely no hint that she thought otherwise (oh the failings of first person)--the ending didn't actually feel like a part of the story. It came as a tremendous shock and I thought that he only tacked on a preachy cliche to make the rape "okay."

I think I may be the local of which you speak. I did read the ending. I just thought it was too weak to unseat my previous impression that this was essentially a non-consensual scene, with the "surprise" (very pedantic) ending. I say that if a person's going to write NC, that's fine, but to just tack on an ending to shift the genre is clumsy.

I understand that it can be justified as BDSM because of the ending, but for that to work, I think the ending has to mesh seamlessly with the feel of the piece. It also has to be a strong, compelling piece of writing. It would take tremendous effort to write an ending that could successfully convey the BDSM in this story in an effective way (as in more than surface BDSM). The ending throws the story into limbo because of its indecision. It makes a NC story seem weak because it's appearing to seek justification in the mind-sex of BDSM, but it also makes BDSM look pretty grim and dark when it's used in this loose (and primarily fictional) sense.

The ending was little more than a post script, in my opinion. And a hastily scribbled one, at that.

I'm not trying to be harsh to the work again; I just wanted to let you see behind my earlier thoughts. A rehash of my earlier criticism was necessary to my explanation. (Why do I always feel that I should apologize or explain?)

--Freya

(Edited to ferret out a comma splice, to fix atrocious punctuation, and because I'm picky about wording.)

 

[wolf2002]

As said, I really appreciate all comments very much (so RisiaSkye: no offence taken). I totally agree with the most of you that the story is quite poorly written. It’s all very mechanic, the characters indeed are flat, it definitely lacks colour and dimension.

I don’t want to defend myself, all I’d like to say is that it’s my first fiction attempt and that English is not my mother tongue. That means my painters palette is somewhat limited. However, I am convinced that even with just basic vocabulary it is possible to write a good story. It all depends on a firm plot.

I still think the plot of Tears from Hell is pretty good. Besides from the stylistic quality, I feel the problem is that I labelled it BDSM. Some of the readers seem to be disappointed, a little offended even cause in the story most of BDSM rules are broken.

Now did that particular fact make the story bad? Actually I doubt it. I can’t really imagine why there should be any rules in sex (including BDSM) – apart from the rule that all involved should like it. In my story both characters do. She likes to be tied up, dominated, humiliated and hurt. He likes to have absolute power, to be cruel, to possess. I guess I just numbered the basic elements of BDSM – the rest is just rules. And all rules can be broken. If you’re looking for a moral in the story, there you have it.

I am very glad I labelled it BDSM though cause – looking at your comments - I guess BDSM’ers are a lot more conscious and thoughtful about sex & literotica than others. This will definitively improve my future writing efforts. Thank you all and thanks Literotica!

PS My next story won’t be about BDSM, it’s really warm and soft actually. Don’t think you scared me off, I’ll be back with more of the hard stuff as well…

 

[cymbidia]

1. Control vs. trust vs. power transference: http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=87918


2. From my perspective, when i read (or begin to read) so-called BDSM stories that do not ring true, i sneer and discard them.

All such bullshit writings do is further injurious stereotypes against us and make it just a little bit more difficult for us to be understood by the wider mass of non-BDSM society as a legitimate love style.

I have a succint response to such writers: fuck you.

I despise the gains you make at my expense - my expense, not some faceless individual - me. Me, the person right here behind these words. You benefit by trying to push me down with your untrue and patently false words because so many will read your words and believbe them true, because all the gains we're making are made a little less by each of your lies.

You represent the worst of such liars, Charm Bright, because you don't understand us enough to know what makes us tick in a most basic manner. You understand enough to know what sells books, what makes money so you can buy your corn flakes. That's all you care about.

There are people - lots of us - who livew in our real lives a version of the twisted trash you write about. We do it differently, however, than your "emphasis on power" writings would have it. We find immense and joyous satisfaction in our relationships with each other, happiness that goes for lifetimes, just as with any other group of people. We love differently then you do, certainly, adhering to different guidelines for our interactions with each other - but we love. Oh yes. We love, we feel, we rejoice, we ache, we cry; we delve deeply into our individual motivations and weunderstand who we are within our primary love relationships. We never stop experimenting. We are open and honest about our needs.

We trust each other.
We communicate.
We engage in a transference of power.

Despite your limited understanding of who we are and your glee in writing books that people pay money to read, we remain stubbornly dignified within the skin of our lives, your dirty words about us and intimations of sickness to the contrary.

~~~~~~~~~~~

I'm really disliking the sudden flood of writers to this forum announcing thier new BDSM sotries and soliciting feedback. There's a whole forum here at Lit for that. Go there with this stuff.

 

[Trinka]

I'm going to swim against the tide in this. I liked your story. I will agree with some of the comments the others have made - I think it is really more of a non-consent story than a bdsm story. I agree with KM about the grammatical and character development aspects she pointed out. And I agree that sometimes its good to read things what we might never do in real life.

Congratulations on writing a story in a language that is not your native tongue. I speak several languages and can appreciate how hard this can be.

I liked your story. Maybe I am not as sophisticated as the rest of the people who posted and thats fine. We are all different people with different tastes.

 

[Guest]

I would normally ignore an ad hominem attack such as the one by cymbidia, but there is one point I would like to emphasise, which is where cymbidia and I agree.

... many will read your words and believe them true, ... You represent the worst of such liars, Charm Bright, ...

I did say that I write novels which are by definition lies. I did say that I make money by this endeavour. The readers of fiction know it is lies and try to pretend to themselves that it could be true. The technical term for this is "suspension of disbelief".

I shall continue to write BDSM fiction, all set in the future and much of it in the next century. I am actually proud of the fact that people enjoy my books enough to buy them, and to recommend them to their friends. If being the worst of such liars means that I am the best of such novelists, I am sure that isn't true.

 

[CarolineOh]

I don't doubt at all that Charm Bright's type of fantasy novels are quite popular, but by his (forgive me if I'm mistaken on your gender) own description of his readership, it is comprised of people who would never do the things he describes in them.
It should come as no surprise then, when those who actually engage in bdsm practices are not receptive, or even hostile, to your work.
I believe cym's point is valid, that unrealistic depictions of bdsm contribute to the stereotyping and marginalization of real people.
I wonder, Charm Bright, if you would argue that portraying gay men, for example, as ruthless predators of young boys is justifiable, because it is a misconcetion popular among some segments of society?

 

[Guest]

... his (forgive me if I'm mistaken on your gender) ...

You are correct.

... It should come as no surprise then, when those who actually engage in bdsm practices are not receptive, or even hostile, to your work ...

It doesn't.

... if you would argue that portraying gay men, for example, as ruthless predators of young boys is justifiable ...

I would agree that such a portayal is justifiable, since it can serve as a warning about some who behave thus, and because a significant number do so.

Simply because a finite number of characters in a book (even the whole cast) are red haired, this does not mean that the author is implying that all humans are red-haired, nor that all red-haired people behave like those characters.

Even the most ardent protagonist of personal freedom in life-style choice has to realise that not all people are as they are. The calm sensible person who enjoys playing BDSM games as part of their loving relationship has to admit that real sadists exist. There are enough authenticated cases of officially sanctioned torture in the world today (ask Amnesty International) to prove that, I write about such people. All the sadism and violence in my books is strictly legal in the societies in which it happens.

 

[CarolineOh]

You are correct.


It doesn't.


I would agree that such a portayal is justifiable, since it can serve as a warning about some who behave thus, and because a significant number do so.

Simply because a finite number of characters in a book (even the whole cast) are red haired, this does not mean that the author is implying that all humans are red-haired, nor that all red-haired people behave like those characters.

Even the most ardent protagonist of personal freedom in life-style choice has to realise that not all people are as they are. The calm sensible person who enjoys playing BDSM games as part of their loving relationship has to admit that real sadists exist. There are enough authenticated cases of officially sanctioned torture in the world today (ask Amnesty International) to prove that, I write about such people. All the sadism and violence in my books is strictly legal in the societies in which it happens.

I disagree with you on several points. First of all, I dispute that "a significant number" of gay men prey on children. certainly there are some, but they are not representative of gay men, and should not br presented as such.

Redheads are not a despised or disrespected group within society, and so your analogy falls flat. As a budding author myself, I would wonder what the point of making your characters redheads would be. I assume that details are not chosen at random, but have significance.

You are trying to have it both ways. If your books are not about BDSM, then they ought not be marketed as BDSM books. If you labeled them "real sadism" or "torture books" then they would not sell as well, and therefore, you are open to the charge that you are defaming the BDSM community for self gain.

 

[Guest]

First of all, I dispute that "a significant number" of gay men prey on children. certainly there are some, but they are not representative of gay men, and should not br presented as such.

I don't want to argue about the meaning if "significant" or "representative". I do claim there are such men (which you do not dispute) and therefore it is not unreasonable to write about them.

Redheads are not a despised or disrespected group ...

You miss the point. I used "redheads" as a non-controversial example of what I was trying to say, which is that you, and cymbidia, are trying to argue that because I write about a small number of fictional individuals, that implies that I believe what I write to be true of a whole class of perole,. That is known as "arguing from the particular to the general" and was dismissed as a fallacious argument by Plato. ALso I write fiction and what I write does not necessarily represent my personal beliefs.

... If your books are not about BDSM, then they ought not be marketed as BDSM books ... therefore, you are open to the charge that you are defaming the BDSM community for self gain.

I didn't call my books BDSM, the literary community puts that label on anything involving domination and physical abuse. As to the "defaming" charge, see my previous point.

 

[porphry]

I guess BDSM’ers are a lot more conscious and thoughtful about sex & literotica than others.

BDSM is Graduate Level Sex....

 

[cymbidia]

BDSM is Graduate Level Sex....

Darlin', that one goes here: http://www.literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=84843


And are you a geologist?