Finally! Help is on its way to the hardest hit.

[Pure]

Support is on its way to the hardest hit. Congress to finally act. President to tour the homes where there is the worst suffering.

http://swiftreport.blogs.com/news/2005/09/bush_to_tour_ma.html


September 06, 2005
Bush to Tour Mansions Ravaged by Estate Tax

President George W. Bush is encouraging Congress to focus on perhaps the most dire issue facing the nation today: the estate tax and its devastating impact on the richest Americans. Mr. Bush said that repealing the tax could aid tens, even dozens of Americans. Former FEMA chief and Arabian horse expert Michael Brown has been tapped to reach out to the victims of the tax.

By Deanna Swift

WASHINGTON, DC—President Bush is encouraging members of Congress not to delay in their efforts to improve the fortunes of some of the worst suffering Americans: those devastated by the estate tax. Mr. Bush said that repealing the tax could aid tens, even dozens of Americans.

A tour of devastated estates planned

President Bush plans to visit Bridgehampton, NY, Aspen, CO and Rancho Santa Fe, CA later this week, where he will tour the mansions of some of the Americans hardest hit by the tax. Aides to the President say that he will first survey the properties from the air in an effort to assess the impact of the estate tax on landscaping, pool maintenance and fleets of cars.

The death tax earns its name

While the surcharge on wealth is formally know as the “estate tax,” over time it has come to be known as the “death tax” due to its devastating impact on the nation’s wealthy. “These are people who have been forced to choose between unbelievably expensive works of art and other unbelievably expensive works of art,” explained one source close to the White House. “In the President’s view, no one should have to do without the necessities of life.”

In a sign of just how serious Mr. Bush is about helping victims of the tax, he has tapped former FEMA head Michael Brown to liaise with those most in need of help: the wealthiest 2% of Americans. Mr. Brown, known as “Brownie,” will join Mr. Bush on the tour of mansions and other properties upon which the estate tax has rained down wrath. “He’s the right person for the job,” said one source close to Mr. Brown. “He feels the pain of these people and he wants to make sure that they get what they need ASAP.”

On the ground, fois gras and veuve clicquot

Air Force One will be accompanied by cargo planes loaded with emergency supplies for the mansion occupants. On its way: individual servings of fois gras, chilled veuve clicquot with champagne flutes and an allotment of truffles for residents who have gone without them for as many as two days.

From Arabian horses to the horsey set


Mr. Brown’s admirers say that the former rules enforcer of the Arabian horse association should do well in his new position as the Arabian horse is popular among the wealthiest Americans. Experts say that Mr. Brown will also encounter some similarities between the horses he once oversaw and their owners to whose rescue he will soon be coming. Both are prized for their gleaming coats and endurance but have suffered mentally as a result of generations of inbreeding.

===
See the report at

http://rozius.blogspot.com/2006/06/paul-krugman-shameless-in-senate.html

analysis of the effect on charitable donations

http://www.ombwatch.org/budget/pdf/impactonnonprofits.pdf

 

[Rumple Foreskin]

Maybe it's the beaten down populist in me raising its head above the ooze, but that's too damn close to reality for comfort.

Thanks Pure.

Rumple Foreskin

 

[R. Richard]

Extremely amusing.

In the area where I live a Mexican man and his wife started a Mexican restaurant. They worked hard and built the place up into a very popular dining place for the area. Later, their children also worked at the restaurant and helped to establish the place with the younger generation. Sadly, the mother and father died in a car accident. To pay the estate tax, the family will have to sell the restaurant. Of course, since estate tax is a tax on the wealthy, the survivors are not to be given any sympathy.

Right.

 

[S-Des]

Extremely amusing.

In the area where I live a Mexican man and his wife started a Mexican restaurant. They worked hard and built the place up into a very popular dining place for the area. Later, their children also worked at the restaurant and helped to establish the place with the younger generation. Sadly, the mother and father died in a car accident. To pay the estate tax, the family will have to sell the restaurant. Of course, since estate tax is a tax on the wealthy, the survivors are not to be given any sympathy.

Right.

That's very true. My dad left us his business which came in a bit below the death tax (thankfully). Considering we were splitting it between four of us (all with families), we didn't exactly get rich. From what I've heard, this hurts farmers a lot too. It's just one of those things that politicians have used to polarize people (hate the rich, they're evil, we're your friends).

On the other hand, the post was so brilliantly funny, I spit water all over my monitor. Thanks.

 

[Guest]

 

[R. Richard]

Oh horseshit (sorry, Shang). The demonized estate tax is only applied to 2% of estates and is only a percentage of the NET value of said 2%.

The percentage is 46%. Admittedly, it is applied to only a small percentage of estates. However, most of those estates are owned by the first generation rich. The first generation rich do not know how to protect themselves from the death tax.

R.Richard, unless you could show me the estate tax returns for this "family business," I'd be more inclined to believe the family blamed the government for something that was their fault.

Of course it was "their fault." The parents were first generation Mexican immigrants. They started out in an old warehouse that they improved as the business expanded. They basically sunk every dime beyond their living into the expansion of a very successful business. The father was about 50 when he died. If he had lived longer, he undoubtedly would have gotten tax advice and protected himself and his family. Hey, the guy didn't even speak English when he started out!

And S-Des, it almost never happens with farms. Family farms rarely show a profit these days, and corporate farms don't have estate taxes to worry about. Urban legend.

Really? True, farms often do not show a profit. However, LAND values increase very rapidly if you are near a city. Thus, the 160 acres that Ma and Pa scratched a living from is suddenly worth tens of thousands per acre. Ma and Pa are not very sophisticated and they never got to the corporate farm stage. Suddenly Ma and Pa are gone and the kids can sell the farm for big bucks. Then the government swoops in and takes a big chunk of what Ma and Pa worked their whole lives for.

Does it have to be? No! A good tax lawyer can set things up so that there is no death tax. However, the people who developed the business have to be sophisticated enough to use the good tax lawyer. Many, many first generation rich are not sophisticated enough to use the good tax lawyer. The death tax is mostly a tax upon the unsophisticated. You know, the people the liberals are trying to protect!

 

[Guest]

 

[R. Richard]

Okay. I see that we're not going to get anywhere, despite the fact that I work for an attorney who does this kind of work for ordinary, "first-generation rich" folks, among others. You go right ahead and cling to your rightist scare stories and I give up. Obviously, it's most important to protect the cash assets of multibillion dollar estates.

lilredjammies:
I didn't mean to start a fight. I understand that you work for an attorney who does this "kind of work" for ordinary, first-generation rich folks WHO KNOW ENOUGH TO ASK FOR HELP AND AREN'T AFRAID TO TALK TO A LAWYER.

I realize that you think what I am saying consists of scare stories. I am going to make up a scare story:
There was a young negro lad, who called himself Joe Louis. He was gonna' get rich by punching other people in the face. He did. Then he pissed away most of the money because he had no idea of how people who had the kind of money he had lived. Then the IRS came in and took everything he had left.

Of course, the story is just made up. All Joe Louis needed was a good attorney.

 

[JamesSD]

Extremely amusing.

In the area where I live a Mexican man and his wife started a Mexican restaurant. They worked hard and built the place up into a very popular dining place for the area. Later, their children also worked at the restaurant and helped to establish the place with the younger generation. Sadly, the mother and father died in a car accident. To pay the estate tax, the family will have to sell the restaurant. Of course, since estate tax is a tax on the wealthy, the survivors are not to be given any sympathy.

Right.

Um, how much is that restraunt worth?

The first 2,000,000 of an estate is excluded from the estate tax. At least that's the number I got from the IRS website.

 

[Huckleman2000]

If R.Richard's anecdote is accurate, it's a highly unusual situation. Still, I doubt if there's any tax R. Richard wouldn't try to argue against. The following appears to be from a progressive organization (I'm guessing), but it quotes and links to reports from the CBO, which is supposedly apolitical, but currently operates under total Republican governmental control. From The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (emphasis added):

Myth 3: Many small, family-owned farms and businesses must be liquidated to pay estate taxes.

Reality: The number of small, family-owned farms and businesses that owe any estate tax is small — and shrinking rapidly.

Despite oft-repeated claims that the estate tax has dire consequences for family farms and small businesses, there is in fact very little evidence that it has an outsize impact on these groups. Indeed, the American Farm Bureau Federation acknowledged to the New York Times that it could not cite a single example of a farm having to be sold to pay estate taxes.

Most recently, an analysis by the Congressional Budget Office confirms that exceedingly few family farms and small businesses face the estate tax (http://www.cbpp.org/7-11-05tax.htm and http://www.cbo.gov/ftpdocs/65xx/doc6512/07-06-EstateTax.pdf). The CBO report found that if the current exemption level of $2.0 million had been in place in 2000, only 123 farm estates and only 135 family-owned businesses nationwide would have owed any estate tax. The number of taxable farm estates drops to 65 nationwide at a $3.5 million exemption level, the level that takes effect in 2009. The number of taxable family-owned business estates falls to just 94 under the $3.5 million exemption.

The CBO report also found that of the few farm and family business estates that would owe any estate tax, the vast majority would have sufficient liquid assets (such as bank accounts, stocks, bonds, and insurance) in the estate to pay the tax without having to touch the farm or business. For instance, of the 65 farm estates that would have owed tax under a $3.5 million exemption, just 13 would have faced liquidity constraints.

Analyses by the Urban Institute-Brookings Institution Tax Policy Center also find that that few small businesses and farms are subject to the estate tax (http://www.cbpp.org/3-16-05tax.htm).

There are eight more myths similarly exposed at the website.

 

[Huckleman2000]

Um, how much is that restraunt worth?

The first 2,000,000 of an estate is excluded from the estate tax. At least that's the number I got from the IRS website.

JamesSD, did you vote for Busby today?

 

[JamesSD]

JamesSD, did you vote for Busby today?

Not my district. But I did vote in the primary.

 

[Pure]

R. Richard,

your story is without documentation.

so i have to give it the same weight as a Christian's tale of someone she knows who cursed Jesus and found himself immediately savaged to death by wild dogs.

 

[Darkniciad]

your story is without documentation.

so i have to give it the same weight as a Christian's tale of someone she knows who cursed Jesus and found himself immediately savaged to death by wild dogs.

If this were on the GB, I would predict about 1.2 minutes before someone with a tag like "don't be stuck on stupid" in their sig line replied to this post with something about Dan Rather.

I find the idea of taxing the relatives of a dead person to inherit property that has had taxes paid on it for the entire duration of its existance, and will continue to have taxes paid on it for long as it continues to exist, plain and simple greed. I don't care if it's a cabin that used to be a school bus propped up on cinder blocks down by the river or Bill Gates' summer home on the ocean. It just feels like, "Hey, here's another way to fleece 'em!" to me.

To heck with left, right, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal... the whole concept of inheritance tax doesn't pass the smell test as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Huckleman2000]

If this were on the GB, I would predict about 1.2 minutes before someone with a tag like "don't be stuck on stupid" in their sig line replied to this post with something about Dan Rather.

I find the idea of taxing the relatives of a dead person to inherit property that has had taxes paid on it for the entire duration of its existance, and will continue to have taxes paid on it for long as it continues to exist, plain and simple greed. I don't care if it's a cabin that used to be a school bus propped up on cinder blocks down by the river or Bill Gates' summer home on the ocean. It just feels like, "Hey, here's another way to fleece 'em!" to me.

To heck with left, right, Republican, Democrat, conservative, liberal... the whole concept of inheritance tax doesn't pass the smell test as far as I'm concerned.

Yet another myth - double taxation.

Myth 7: The estate tax constitutes "double taxation" because it applies to assets that already have been taxed once as income.

Reality: Large estates have substantial amounts of "unrealized" capital gains that have never been taxed; the estate tax is the only means of taxing this income.

Income taxes on the appreciation of assets, such as real estate or artwork, are only paid when the asset is sold. Therefore, the increase in the value of an asset is never subject to income tax if the asset is held until a person dies. These "unrealized" capital gains can make up a significant share of an estate’s total value (http://www.cbpp.org/6-17-05tax.htm), especially among large estates — the ones likely to owe estate tax.

One reason the estate tax was created was to serve as a backstop to the income tax, taxing income that was never taxed under the income tax. That is, the taxation of this income is essentially deferred and ultimately taxed for the first time through the estate tax.

 

[Darkniciad]

Yet another myth - double taxation.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't convince me in any way because I've either seen that site or the information on it presented elsewhere before.

I've typed and backspace about thirty pages of text, but quite frankly there's little point in it. I see this as walking over a corpse to pick somebody's pocket. I don't care if they're wearing a double breasted suit or bib overalls, when you step on them, there's a footprint on either.

Difference of opinion and I'll leave it at that. Got no use for gettin' into a political argument here, I've got plenty of places for that. The primary purpose of my original response was to take a jestful poke at the silliness down in the GB and some dittoheads tendancy to shoot off on a tangent when they see a favored target specificlike, and I only added my personal thoughts on the matter so it wouldn't be a threadjack.

 

[R. Richard]

If R.Richard's anecdote is accurate, it's a highly unusual situation. Still, I doubt if there's any tax R. Richard wouldn't try to argue against. The following appears to be from a progressive organization (I'm guessing), but it quotes and links to reports from the CBO, which is supposedly apolitical, but currently operates under total Republican governmental control. From The Center on Budget and Policy Priorities (emphasis added):

There are eight more myths similarly exposed at the website.

Tell me, if it is just a very few instances where the death tax actuall applies, then what is the argument about? If we are talking about a hundred or so instances, it would seem to me like a selective tax. Taxes are supposed to apply to everyone. If we have selective taxes, where does it stop?

 

[3113]

Tell me, if it is just a very few instances where the death tax actuall applies, then what is the argument about? If we are talking about a hundred or so instances, it would seem to me like a selective tax. Taxes are supposed to apply to everyone. If we have selective taxes, where does it stop?

I'm not sure I understand how you see it as "selective." It's only selective because making that much money isn't common. But the estate of a anyone who makes that much money is taxed. In other words, a woman from a relatively poor family, who manages to end up owning a multi-million dollar coroporation (like, say Martha Stewart), well, her wealth will face the estate tax. It's not just old money, like the Hiltons, that face the estate tax.

As ANYONE, for just about ANY reason can suddenly find themselves that rich thanks to baking cookies (Mrs. Fields), software (Bill Gates), creativity (name a movie producer), ANYONE, the tax is not "selective." Anyone CAN face an estate tax if they make that amount of money.

If, however, you're saying that everyone should be taxed the same amount no matter if they're dirt poor or wealthy, well, that's an entirely different argument because taxation in the U.S. doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. A homeless person is not taxed. If it's selective unless all taxes apply to everyone, then the homeless person should have to pay out a percentage of the money he's earned recycling bottles. Otherwise, ALL taxes are selective.

 

[Pure]

r richard,

do you have any evidence that the very wealthy are overtaxed?

 

[FallingToFly]

Mr. Brown’s admirers say that the former rules enforcer of the Arabian horse association should do well in his new position as the Arabian horse is popular among the wealthiest Americans. Experts say that Mr. Brown will also encounter some similarities between the horses he once oversaw and their owners to whose rescue he will soon be coming. Both are prized for their gleaming coats and endurance but have suffered mentally as a result of generations of inbreeding.


http://www.ombwatch.org/budget/pdf/impactonnonprofits.pdf

I don't give a damn about the politics... but how FUCKING dare these twits compare MY baby to those over-stuffed prigs in their desperation dance around their multi-million dollar homes?

*Yes, Firefly owns an Egyptian Arabian*

 

[amicus]

Monday of this week when I walked a 10 and 6 year old to school, I stayed a few moments to listen to the Principal of the school deliver the regular Monday morning messages and announcements.

They also sang a song, the old Woodie Guthrie, Arlo Guthrie folk ditty, "This land is my land..."

And of course it set me off in a dither and I left after the 10th verse the teachers sang to the children, brainwashing the young about a populist mentality wherein the group supercedes the rights of the individual, everything is shared and nothing is owned by individuals.

'This Land', is NOT 'your land' Pure, and the rest of you simpering socialists, this little 90 acre patch is MINE, everything on it, beneath it and over it is MINE and if you even walk on it without permission, I'll personally blow your fuckin head off!



After I left the school, with a two year old in tow, we walked to a mall like area, browsed in a store and I stopped in a Subway for a chocolate chip cookie for the bubbity tagging along.

".49 cents each or three for a dollar..." said the hispanic counter person. "With tax...?' I questioned, "$1.09...." she said.

So to the assholes who say the poor are not taxed, that nine percent California State Tax, almost a 'tithe', ten percent, is much harder for a poor person to pay than a rich one.

And I offer a challenge to Pure and all the rest of you who feel you have a right to steal a portion of my accumulated wealth: Justify and defend your right to my labor and profit.

Look me right in the eye as you tell me you want to impose the 'death tax' on my property and investments, that I do not have a 'right' to property I created, worked for, maintained and wish to pass on to my children. Go ahead, tell me by what right, you, Pure, personally can justify stealing from me.

The oil under the ground in Pennsylvania and Texas, sat there for millions of years until a 'man with a mind' found a use for it and pumped it out of the ground. The minerals and other 'natural' resources were also left until a 'man with a mind' discovered uses for copper and iron and gold and timber.

'Man with a mind...' being the key phrase. All wealth is created by the individual and the greatest asset of all is the mind of man.

Those of you like Pure, who have no talent or skill are so green with envy of those who do that you justify theft from those who produce; go ahead, justify your actions.

The theme of Atlas Shrugged, in general, was a 'strike' like a union walkout of laborers, but in this case a 'strike' of men of intellect. Those who could produce, stopped and left all you parasites to exist without the benefit of rational thought. Just like intellectuals always leave an oppressive dictatorship, be it Stalin or Hitler or Socialist England, those left behind wither away into who can steal the most from whom.

Good luck!

 

[R. Richard]

do you have any evidence that the very wealthy are overtaxed?

Pure:
In general, the very wealthy are not overtaxed. In fact, as a general statement, it is practically impossible to overtax the very wealthy. If you try to overtax the very wealthy, they either game the system or leave the high tax area.

The exception to the general rule of overtaxing the wealthy occurs mostly among the parvenu. I gave the well known example of Joe Louis. There are several other examples, mostly entertainers or sports stars. Interestingly, most of the overtaxed wealthy are Negro.

 

[R. Richard]

As ANYONE, for just about ANY reason can suddenly find themselves that rich thanks to baking cookies (Mrs. Fields), software (Bill Gates), creativity (name a movie producer), ANYONE, the tax is not "selective." Anyone CAN face an estate tax if they make that amount of money.

Most people who "suddenly find themselves rich" are not subject to the "death tax." Bill Gates is one of the shrewest people on this earth. If the government gets money from Bill Gates, it is because he has to pay something and it was too much bother to avoid the tax. I don't know Mrs. Fields, although she makes a FINE cookie! Many of the noveau riche movie producers find themselves in deep tax trouble because they are artists and just can't be bothered with all the little financial details.

If, however, you're saying that everyone should be taxed the same amount no matter if they're dirt poor or wealthy, well, that's an entirely different argument because taxation in the U.S. doesn't work that way. It just doesn't. A homeless person is not taxed. If it's selective unless all taxes apply to everyone, then the homeless person should have to pay out a percentage of the money he's earned recycling bottles. Otherwise, ALL taxes are selective.

Homeless people are not taxed, because the cost of collecting the tax would be more than the tax collected. However, I believe that everyone above the level of the homeless should be taxed at the same RATE. If a citizen pays taxes, he/she/it has an interest in how those taxes are spent. This last is good.

Please note the diference between TAX RATE and TAX. President Bush cut the TAX RATE, however, the amount of TAX collected has increased since the much criticised TAX RATE cuts.

At one time I was "homeless," or at least I think you would have considered me homeless. I was living in and abandoned venetian blind factory. I paid no taxes and, in fact, had to shop lift supper. As fast as I could, I found out how to make money and got myself out of the abandoned venetian blind factory [a certain charm, nonetheless] and into a house. I now pay taxes. For my taxes, I get fire protection [Yes!] and police service [Not! the scumbags can kiss my ass,] road repair [more or less,] plus a Mayor I think is on drugs and a City Council I suspect are not on drugs as they are too stupid to leave the house with enough money to score drugs.] I have to wonder why the scum I see living in alleyways choose to live that way. I tried the lifestyle when I was too young to get regular work and I didn;t like it. Don't tell me the homeless can't work, I started jackrolling drunks when I was 12-years-old.

 

[FallingToFly]

Okay... am I the only one who thinks the original post is satire? As in... this whole damn thing is a poke at Bush? Because, well.. y'all seem to be getting a bit fired up.

 

[rgraham666]

Okay... am I the only one who thinks the original post is satire? As in... this whole damn thing is a poke at Bush? Because, well.. y'all seem to be getting a bit fired up.

We're talking taxes here, Falling. Which is exactly the same a theft to some people. People are not usually neutral of positive about being robbed.

Shrugs. A society has to provide services to its citizenry. And it has to pay for those services. It can only do this by taxing the citizens or by borrowing the money.

If the society can't raise enough funds, it must either cut services or run up debt. Neither of these is good for society. If enough services vanish, or the debt gets too large the society dies.

Happened lots of times in history. No reason for it to stop now.