Fifty Shades of Grey

[beatrice_dreams]

beatrice, it's not just you. I don't like first person POV either, and first person POV with present tense is even worse.

If first person POV is done well, I can handle it (see Jane Eyre!), but the present tense takes some getting used to I think.

 

[BONNIEBREA]

If first person POV is done well, I can handle it (see Jane Eyre!), but the present tense takes some getting used to I think.

Perhaps from the perspective of a reader.

As a writer I prefer first person because of the challenges it presents. First, you have to change tenses as appropriate (depending on whether the first person character is talking about something that happened in the past or in the present). I also use present tense when the narrator is describing the present or continuing attributes of someone being described.

In one story I have the first person narrator telling about events and feelings in her past - so past tense. But then she begins describing specific incidents she witnessed - incidents and scenes that had a very significant impact on her growth, so I shifted to her describing those incidents using present tense - as if, while she's recalling them, she's also living them again. I thought it worked very well. I also find a first person narrator using present tense in flashback scenes to be very effective.

The other problem I have with third person is that as a writer it seems to me like, well, cheating - or at least taking an easy path rather than a more challenging one. I mean, as the omniscient narrator you get to know everything, and can reveal anything (or not). So, I sometimes come to the point in the story (as a reader) where the big reveal happens and I as often as not think, 'well, geez, you knew that all along so why didn't you tell me before?' I feel manipulated.

But with first person the only things the narrator can reveal are things she personally knows (and maybe she doesn't have all the information, or maybe she's perceiving things in the wrong way, or she has prejudices or attitudes that color her perception, or any of a dozen other lackings in her perception). So it makes for much more of a writing challenge in getting from A to B when - instead of being able to say, 'well, I'll just let everyone know about this' (third person) - you have to figure out exactly how the narrator character is going to come on the information in the head of another character or learn of the actions or attitudes of another character. You can keep things secret in a much more natural way. And when it comes time to reveal, the emotional and narrative impact is much greater when the narrator suddenly makes whatever discovery is in play.

In one story, 'Martina's Bet', Martina comes on knowledge about another character who is an antagonist, and I thought that instead of being able to just write, 'Martina was the only one who knew this about Catherine!' (the exclamation mark is entirely gratuitous) it was incredibly more effective to have Martina REALIZE she was the only one who knew or who could act on the knowledge.

 

[lovecraft68]

hehe okay. Going by the way I used it, a "fuckwaffle" is someone who hops around waving their hands and shrieking their disapproval long after it's been established that there isn't really anything to disapprove of.

Oh, I get it!

It's like you when you're crying discrimination and racism where there isn't any!

When you whine about how downtrodden the lesbian/gay community is even though we live in a day where the damn president of the most powerful country in the world, publicly declared he supports gay marriage.

I understand now, thanks for clarifying.

 

[beatrice_dreams]

In one story I have the first person narrator telling about events and feelings in her past - so past tense. But then she begins describing specific incidents she witnessed - incidents and scenes that had a very significant impact on her growth, so I shifted to her describing those incidents using present tense - as if, while she's recalling them, she's also living them again. I thought it worked very well. I also find a first person narrator using present tense in flashback scenes to be very effective.

I can see what you mean by this - it goes with the context of the story and puts you more immediately into the mind of the narrator. I think I wouldn't have an issue reading something written with that purpose. Having read some of your work, I certainly never had trouble with the flow of it - quite the opposite! I think if it were an entire book written in that way, I'd have to work a little harder to get my head around it.

I'm actually trying out first-person POV in one of my stories at the moment, and while I occasionally need to go back and find/replace where I've slipped and said 'she' instead of 'I' (habits die hard!) in many ways it's faster to write.

At the end of the day, I expect that my issue is more that it's difficult to read anything that's not written well. A good writer will make any POV read effortlessly.

The other problem I have with third person is that as a writer it seems to me like, well, cheating - or at least taking an easy path rather than a more challenging one. I mean, as the omniscient narrator you get to know everything, and can reveal anything (or not). So, I sometimes come to the point in the story (as a reader) where the big reveal happens and I as often as not think, 'well, geez, you knew that all along so why didn't you tell me before?' I feel manipulated.

With third-person, I know for myself I always try to inhabit as much as possible the pov of the character I'm on at that time. They can still verbalise their thoughts and you can show all their emotions. I think I know what you mean about the narrator who floats up a little too 'high' and you start to feel somewhat patronised.

So far I like switching between the two main characters in third-person. That way you can actually keep some secrets while showing others - or at least putting your readers into some suspense when they know more than one of the protagonists. One of my favourite romance writers was able to swap (practically effortlessly damn her) from one character's pov to another from paragraph to paragraph and you never lost the thread. Practice makes perfect I guess.

It's a fascinating thing though - the effect of perspective.

In one story, 'Martina's Bet', Martina comes on knowledge about another character who is an antagonist, and I thought that instead of being able to just write, 'Martina was the only one who knew this about Catherine!' (the exclamation mark is entirely gratuitous) it was incredibly more effective to have Martina REALIZE she was the only one who knew or who could act on the knowledge.

I'll always have a soft spot for Martina - she's a great character!

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Oh, I get it!

It's like you when you're crying discrimination and racism where there isn't any!

When you whine about how downtrodden the lesbian/gay community is even though we live in a day where the damn president of the most powerful country in the world, publicly declared he supports gay marriage.

I understand now, thanks for clarifying.

Y'know, when I made up that faux dictionary definition for fuckwaffle, I fought really hard against including any Lit names at the bottom. But I was sorely tempted to toss in the names of those who seem to scan every forum entry so they can pick a fight against their nemesis fuckwaffle. Instead, I'm going to remove my fingers from the keyboard and pretend lovecraft68 (who I truly have no beef with) was being funny.

 

[BuckyDuckman]

Perhaps from the perspective of a reader.

As a writer I prefer first person because of the challenges it presents....

The other problem I have with third person is that as a writer it seems to me like, well, cheating - or at least taking an easy path rather than a more challenging one. I mean, as the omniscient narrator....

In one story, 'Martina's Bet', Martina comes on knowledge about another character who is an antagonist, ... it was incredibly more effective to have Martina REALIZE she was the only one who knew or who could act on the knowledge.

For years, I wrote from the 1st person pov because that's what the market demanded. Later, as I tried to develop a 3rd person pov, I struggled. I still do. My 3rd person pov stories tend to climb inside the head of a single character and stay there. Lately, I've been switching it up, moving back and forth between the two and falling back in love with 1st person. There's a sense of characterization that's possible with 1st person that I think can be distracting in 3rd person.

I completely get how a change in pov can strengthen or weaken a story point. Cool example!

 

[PennLady]

The other problem I have with third person is that as a writer it seems to me like, well, cheating - or at least taking an easy path rather than a more challenging one. I mean, as the omniscient narrator you get to know everything, and can reveal anything (or not). So, I sometimes come to the point in the story (as a reader) where the big reveal happens and I as often as not think, 'well, geez, you knew that all along so why didn't you tell me before?' I feel manipulated.

I'm sure it's a matter of preference, but I have to disagree here. You can write a 3d person POV story and still have a big reveal. 3d person doesn't automatically mean "omniscient." It can be limited. I've written 3P stories from only one vantage point, so the reader knows no more than the character does.

I think the manipulation idea can happen in first person as well. I mean, the narrator could hold something back from their "audience." We're only getting the narrator's take on things, after all.

I don't think either first or third person is any easier than the other. They can be used in different ways to get results and both present their own challenges. I much prefer 3P stories myself, although I don't rule out 1P stories. But when I read 1P stories, I'm often frustrated b/c I want to know what other characters are thinking or feeling and I can't get that, or I only get the narrator's take. I want to know from Joe what Joe is feeling.

Again, I know it's a personal thing -- a lot of times with first person, I find people just writing to the effect of "I did this. I did that." They seem to think that they are limited in sentence structure, things like that. Also, for some reason, I often feel like I the reader am supposed to be the narrator, or in their place or whatever, and I don't like that. I want to read about someone else, not myself (which is also my big problem with 2d person).

All that said, I am in fact working on a first person story, so we'll see how it goes.

 

[RjThoughts]

Today, @nookBN is accepting Twiiter questions for author E.L. James, using the hastag #50ShadesNOOK

 

[Stella_Omega]

this isn't over folks.
They've figured out that *gasp* MEN buy porn, too!

(actually, this is a month old-- but it's still cute)

http://pics.livejournal.com/metaphortunate/pic/0000hh91

 

[lance gt]

Now it's causing a controversy at the libraries across the States.
http://video.ca.msn.com/watch/video...-of-controversy/17yck3g4x?from=en-ca-infopane

 

[cntrygirl]

So, I am curious if anyone here has read this. I just started reading it because a friend mentioned it and because I found out that it was originally a Twilight fan fic. It's supposed to be VERY kinky and have some BDSM in it.

Thoughts?

I just started it and am on Chapter 5, but I have a friend who read it and she liked it. I also have some other friends who didn't like it. I think it's hard to get into.

 

[laceNlthrgrrl]

Comin' at this one a little late (typical).

I only ever read a few chapters of Twilight, that was all I could stomache. It was obviously for the YA crowd (do their moms know they read this tripe?). As a friend described it "prose as purple as an eggplant." Uh-huh!

So the Grey books. At first I was entertained, even chuckled out loud a few times. I like predicament mindfucks, and thought it had promise. Then the stupid bitch lost her nerve and it turned into a pretty disappointing romance. I gave up on the BDSM aspect completley by the middle of the 2nd book, but got snagged by the mystery (my fave genre) so read the 3rd book despite my misgivings. The mystery part was satisfying anyways.

I'm generally pissed about the BDSM distraction. I just can't swallow a Dom giving that up for "loooove." I'm sick of the subtext that only damaged people like DS/BDSM, ect. <insert bigas longwinded rant here>

They were a fun read, but the lead chick was too whiny for my taste and Grey had a lot of wasted potential. Disappointing.

 

[HabsFan33]

I wouldn't bet on that.

Consider that Tolkien's "Lord of the Rings" a truly excellent book with great writing breed copycats like "The Sword of Shannara," a pretty bad book. So, if a good popular book breeds bad copies, can you image the copies a bad popular book will breed?

The sword of shannara was a pretty bad book?

No, no it wasn't.

Was it Lord of the Rings? Hardly, but saying Sword was bad, is an insult to Mr. Brooks. IMHO.

 

[lovecraft68]

A good friend of mine who also writes some erotica (on sol though not here) forced herself to finish book one. She won't go any further. She said to post this as the cliff note version.

"Gray cocked his head and looked at me, as he did I felt myself turn several shades of crimson. I could feel my inner goddess rising and yearned for him to touch me down there. But only after he turns ten shades darker and cocks his head a dozen more times."

Now you guys are all set!

 

[THROBBS]

A good friend of mine who also writes some erotica (on sol though not here) forced herself to finish book one. She won't go any further. She said to post this as the cliff note version.

"Gray cocked his head and looked at me, as he did I felt myself turn several shades of crimson. I could feel my inner goddess rising and yearned for him to touch me down there. But only after he turns ten shades darker and cocks his head a dozen more times."

Now you guys are all set!

She wrote "COCKS"!!! darker ... cocks!!!!

 

[lovecraft68]

She wrote "COCKS"!!! darker ... cocks!!!!

Did she use cock? I won't touch the thing and never asked. She wouldn't use "pussy" and I do know she used penis.

anyway from what I heard that's about the gist of it. good for her being able to somehow drag that limited plot into a trilogy.

 

[RjThoughts]

this isn't over folks.
They've figured out that *gasp* MEN buy porn, too!

(actually, this is a month old-- but it's still cute)

http://pics.livejournal.com/metaphortunate/pic/0000hh91

Men buy porn, the stuff we can see.

Women buy porn, the stuff that allows their minds to join the written word.

 

[THROBBS]

Did she use cock? I won't touch the thing and never asked. She wouldn't use "pussy" and I do know she used penis.

anyway from what I heard that's about the gist of it. good for her being able to somehow drag that limited plot into a trilogy.

Yeah baby! use that penis!!!

(she used cock...as in tilt of head)

 

[lovecraft68]

Yeah baby! use that penis!!!

(she used cock...as in tilt of head)

Ohhhh, ohhhh, Mr. Gray! Stick that penis down there! Ohhh, I'm getting twenty shades more horny! Oh, stop cocking your penis and put it to me real hard down there!

 

[THROBBS]

Ohhhh, ohhhh, Mr. Gray! Stick that penis down there! Ohhh, I'm getting twenty shades more horny! Oh, stop cocking your penis and put it to me real hard down there!

Dude! You could really write this stuff!

I imagine, that for the audience, it feels a bit *safer* (and they obviously are the "safer" crowd) if the story is coming from a woman. Therefore your Lovercraft could work.

 

[THROBBS]

Write "Darker Than Grey".

I feel sure you could do better, but not likely to be as popular if it gets too real.

 

[lovecraft68]

Dude! You could really write this stuff!

I imagine, that for the audience, it feels a bit *safer* (and they obviously are the "safer" crowd) if the story is coming from a woman. Therefore your Lovercraft could work.

I have a published pen name of "laura Lovecraft"

That's safe! Laura wouldn't hurt anyone!

Actually I have written the Anti-shades a 575 page full length BDSM novel that is currently getting edited.

When its on Amazon I plan on giving away a few copies ot some litsters to get some feedback (and possibly garner some reviews)

 

[RjThoughts]

I have a published pen name of "laura Lovecraft"

That's safe! Laura wouldn't hurt anyone!

Actually I have written the Anti-shades a 575 page full length BDSM novel that is currently getting edited.

When its on Amazon I plan on giving away a few copies ot some litsters to get some feedback (and possibly garner some reviews)

Did you research BBDSM or do you have knowledge of the lifestyle? She had NO knowledge, did NO research, wrote a fanfiction

 

[Stella_Omega]

Men buy porn, the stuff we can see.

Women buy porn, the stuff that allows their minds to join the written word.

To continue with your sweeping generalisation, Women consume porn they can see as well -- usually not the same stuff that men consume, which means that they have to produce it and share it amongst themselves, which is why you mostly don't see it commercially.

And you are right, it's stuff that allows their minds to enter into the image. (Such as Yaoi manga from Japan --which can get incredibly hardcore, by the way)

She had NO knowledge, did NO research, wrote a fanfiction

yes... we all know ... everyone knows...

And lovecraft is in the lifestyle. I've just read a bit of his book, and what I read is very much cognizant of current practice-- I think I will be able to recommend it to anyone who wants to read hetero BDSM.

 

[lovecraft68]

Did you research BBDSM or do you have knowledge of the lifestyle? She had NO knowledge, did NO research, wrote a fanfiction

Yeah, that is pretty obvious she has no experience, hence Gray being such a pathetic dom.

I no longer "practice" bit of a weekend warrior now with the wife, but I've been there and bought the T-shirt. I'll be fine.

If anything the critique on me is too rough, I really push safe/sane/consensual sometimes.

I had the first chapter up on lit in early Jan. for some feedback. When I pulled it, it had a 4.92 on 100+ votes. And that is my target audience so I feel okay about "accuracy"