Fidelity, Monogamy and all that jazz...

[Vermilion]

- Why do they exist?
- Are they still relevant in today's society (with contraception, health protection etc)?
- Do you think they're a good idea/do you practice them?
- Is it the automatic end of a relationship if one partner looks elsewhere?
- How about for bisexuals - is it valid for them to have a partner of each sex, or is that just greedy?
- If you 'cheat' should you feel guilty? Why?
- If you cheat, should you ever tell your SO, or is it a case of 'what the eye don;t see...'?
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New Questions
- How do you define cheating? A kiss, a thought, a fuck?
- Would you rather your partner was physically faithful, but emotionally involved with someone else or emotionally involved only with you, but physically unfaithful?
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Commence discussion...

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PS- if you have any other relevant questions PM them to me and I'll stick 'em in this list so everyone sees them...

 

[TheeGoatPig]

-Why do they exist?
No idea.

- Are they still relevant in today's society (with contraception, health protection etc)?
I think that it always will be. Maybe not for everyone, but for enough people to make a difference.

- Do you think they're a good idea/do you practice them?
I would if I had a partner to practice with

- Is it the automatic end of a relationship if one partner looks elsewhere?
My girlfriend made out with someone else when we were together. I should have ended it there, but I didn't.

- How about for bisexuals - is it valid for them to have a partner of each sex, or is that just greedy?
GREEDY! I've heard about too many people who thought that just because they went under the "Bi" monicre that they were allowed to sleep with anyone and everyone that offered them a fuck.

- If you 'cheat' should you feel guilty? Why?
I would. But I feel guilty about everything I do.

And no one "should" feel any way about anything. Everyone is different. Your own reactions to everything are just fine.

- If you cheat, should you ever tell your SO, or is it a case of 'what the eye don;t see...'?
If you care about them you should. you don't trust each other much if you hide stuff like that from them.

PS- if you have any other relevant questions PM them to me and I'll stick 'em in this list so everyone sees them...

Did someone cheat on you recently? Is that why you are asking?

 

[R. Richard]

- Why do they exist?
- Are they still relevant in today's society (with contraception, health protection etc)?
- Do you think they're a good idea/do you practice them?
- Is it the automatic end of a relationship if one partner looks elsewhere?
- How about for bisexuals - is it valid for them to have a partner of each sex, or is that just greedy?
- If you 'cheat' should you feel guilty? Why?
- If you cheat, should you ever tell your SO, or is it a case of 'what the eye don;t see...'?

Fidelity and monagamy exist because our ancestors were farmers. It became very necessary to know who owned the farming land. Thus marriage was a contract to determine who would inherit the land. Yes, some hunter gatherers did have marriage, but many hunter gatherer bands did not. In fact, since you can't have a very large hunter gatherer band, it was normal for hunter gatherer bands to swap female children so that individual bands would not become inbred.

Fidelity and monagamy are still relevant in today's society for different, but somewhat similar concerns that our farmer ancestors had. Who owns the retirement plan? If one partner catches the other partner spending what should be common funds on another, secret partner why should the faithful partner pay for the other partners subsidised lover?

 

[Pure]

i think monogamy lives on... and so does cheating... and those in the former like to believe or pretend to believe that cheating is the exception, is fatal [one of your questions] etc.

FURTHER, among those, e.g. litsters, who have foresworn 'cheating,' one often finds rather idiosyncratic definition of 'cheating' or its opposite, 'fidelity'; such as, 'you're not unfaithful if you don't fuck' or 'you're not unfaithful if it's a pro, ' or 'i'm faithful but there was something 'just once' and it was some time ago.'

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

They both exist together at the same time. Why? Because there seems to be a newer definition of "cheating". For instance, I have a friend who is totally committed to his wife and would never "cheat", but cybers regularly.

Under the new definition, I guess that's not really cheating. Go figure.

 

[Pure]

cybering doesn't count if there are no plans for getting together

 

[TheeGoatPig]

It's not cheating if your partner joins in

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

cybering doesn't count if there are no plans for getting together

I can't agree to that, Pure. If the act of cybering would be hurtful to your partner if he/she knew then it seems to me, that's cheating - even if you have no intention of ever meeting the person with whom you cyber.

That, I believe, is the crux of the matter - the hurt or possibility of hurt between two people in a relationship.

 

[galaxygoddess]

Cybering has brought a whole new dimension to the world of cheating.

Some will argue that it is not, some will argue that it is, other still will argue that it CAN be, but only if you make it to be.

I believe it is a form, but not necessarily as heinous.

You are basically sharing yourself with someone different in a way that you would only share with your significant other.

 

[Vermilion]

- If you cheat, should you ever tell your SO, or is it a case of 'what the eye don;t see...'?
If you care about them you should. you don't trust each other much if you hide stuff like that from them.

But what if you were telling them just to salve your own conscience - wouldn;t the kinder thing be keeping your countenance and saving your SO from hurt (if they're not in any risk of finding out from someone else that is)

Did someone cheat on you recently? Is that why you are asking?

No, nobody, it's just a question that interests me.
Dammit. I thought of a couple more things I wanted to ask, wrote them all out, but then my internet died and I had to restart my comp to get it working again and lost my post. Bum.

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ETA: thatnks all, you reminded me what my other points were
- How do you define cheating? A kiss, a thought, a fuck?
- Would you rather your partner was physically faithful, but emotionally involved with someone else or emotionally involved only with you, but physically unfaithful?

I'll stick these in the original post, too...

 

[Adi87]

But what if you were telling them just to salve your own conscience - wouldn;t the kinder thing be keeping your countenance and saving your SO from hurt (if they're not in any risk of finding out from someone else that is)



ETA: thatnks all, you reminded me what my other points were
- How do you define cheating? A kiss, a thought, a fuck?
- Would you rather your partner was physically faithful, but emotionally involved with someone else or emotionally involved only with you, but physically unfaithful?

I'll stick these in the original post, too...

No. I dont think so. Also there is no such thing as 'no risk of finding out'
Also I think that when you cheat you have done wrong. If you have the least bit of respect for your SO then you should tell him/her and let them decide on how to move on...
If you don't have any respect for your partner then he/she is by no means your SO.


How do you define cheating???
When you really know what the boundary is and you've crossed it. Now you might say that boundaries differ for different people. Yes, they do but each and every person knows what is acceptable and what is not.
The is no such thing as "It was only for Sex" By saying that you are disrespecting your partner and lying to yourself. You know what the boundary is. Stay on the safe side of it. Curiosity kills the cat.

 

[CeriseNoire]

As far a cheating, I agree with JJ. If it would be hurtful to the other person, then it's cheating (and chances are, it you feel the need to hide it from your partner, it's because you know it would in fact hurt them).

As for the bi thing, it monogamy is what one choses, then orientation seems irrelevant to me because the choice was to be with one mate.

Regarding your last question, I don't think I could make a choice. The reason is that, to me, both would be a matter of dishonesty, based on what our expectations were within the relationship. As hurtful as it may be, I'd rather be left than be betrayed.

 

[Vermilion]

No. I dont think so. Also there is no such thing as 'no risk of finding out'
Also I think that when you cheat you have done wrong. If you have the least bit of respect for your SO then you should tell him/her and let them decide on how to move on...
If you don't have any respect for your partner then he/she is by no means your SO.


How do you define cheating???
When you really know what the boundary is and you've crossed it. Now you might say that boundaries differ for different people. Yes, they do but each and every person knows what is acceptable and what is not.
The is no such thing as "It was only for Sex" By saying that you are disrespecting your partner and lying to yourself. You know what the boundary is. Stay on the safe side of it. Curiosity kills the cat.

Jeez you have a bulky Sig...

OK... How about if you and your SO were breaking up anyway, because the relationship had broken down and, because of this break down, you'd been unfaithful... Would you still feel the need to disclose, or would that just be rubbing salt into the wound?
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[Recidiva]

- Why do they exist?

Simplicity. Easier to keep track of one person than lots.

- Are they still relevant in today's society (with contraception, health protection etc)?

Yes, because it's for those who value loyalty, possessiveness and teamwork.

- Do you think they're a good idea/do you practice them?

For me it's a good idea. I'm with someone who values them, who makes it worth my while to not go elsewhere. On my own, I'm not sure. I've tried open relationships, but they're unstable. In my experience, everyone wants to be "your one and only" at a certain intimacy level. It's hard to get past that ego wall of fire.

- Is it the automatic end of a relationship if one partner looks elsewhere?

No. Looking isn't forbidden. It's expected that other people will be attractive. It's the "sleeping with" without a heads up that's a problem. Tell me ahead of time and I can reassess what I want and maybe accomodate. Not sure.

- How about for bisexuals - is it valid for them to have a partner of each sex, or is that just greedy?

That's up to them. Four bisexuals together can be stable?

- If you 'cheat' should you feel guilty? Why?

Yes. It's dishonest. It fucks with your integrity and your trust in yourself. It means you can't deal with reality so you have to lie to get everything you want. Lack of self control, lack of emotional honesty.

- If you cheat, should you ever tell your SO, or is it a case of 'what the eye don;t see...'?

Yes. Because YOU know. And you will simply corrode yourself until you have redefined everything that matters into things that are meaningless. And that's not a service to yourself.

- How do you define cheating? A kiss, a thought, a fuck?

Not a thought. I'm not going there. A kiss, meh. Not so much. It's not a deal breaker, depending on how it came about and the results. A fuck, yes.

- Would you rather your partner was physically faithful, but emotionally involved with someone else or emotionally involved only with you, but physically unfaithful?

I'd rather he was happy with me and chose to be with me. I'd want him to tell me if that changed, and then I'd want him to seek his own happiness. I'd want to be the one who let him go so he could get it. Then I'd be free also to go find my happiness.

I can't really take any of those half scenarios. It'd be like asking me if I'd rather have food or water. I need both, and I need them pure and clear. I'd rather go without than drink or eat something poisoned.

 

[Adi87]

Jeez you have a bulky Sig...

OK... How about if you and your SO were breaking up anyway, because the relationship had broken down and, because of this break down, you'd been unfaithful... Would you still feel the need to disclose, or would that just be rubbing salt into the wound?
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If the relationship had broken down I wouldn't stay in it for that long...

But... since you've asked

I would tell her everything. Since it was a mistake on my part she deserves to know everything. It might hurt her a bit but it would at least make her realize that there were no shortcomings from her side... and that it was the fault of me and my character and that I am so weak that I couldn't accept that we were breaking up.

ETA: sorry bout the sig... but it sorta describes a part of me in a song.

 

[CeriseNoire]

Jeez you have a bulky Sig...

OK... How about if you and your SO were breaking up anyway, because the relationship had broken down and, because of this break down, you'd been unfaithful... Would you still feel the need to disclose, or would that just be rubbing salt into the wound?
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That's the part that bothers me (in my view of cheating at least). What's wrong with breaking up first, and then seeking what it is you need?

 

[3113]

-Why do they exist?
Various reasons. Initially, monogamy was culturally and legally for women--and still is a woman-only thing in chauvinistic lands where men can have multiple wives, but women have not sexual rights or freedoms. The purpose there is simply the man's way of displaying his alpha-ness just as men have always displayed it: having lots of the best--house, car, women, off-spring, etc. He gets the women and they don't want any other man, hence, he's top man. If the woman cheats, however, that wounds the male pride and manliness and that's hard for a man to forgive. Later on, as said, it also had to do with making sure the that guy's offspring was his, because a man wants all that stuff to go to his kid and no some other guy's kid.

Which is not to say that all men/women are into multiple partners. I do think, in a lot of people. that monogamy exists simply as a preferred, personal lifestyle or, perhaps, like being gay or bi, there are degrees of a natural, sexual inclination toward being monogamous.

- Are they still relevant in today's society (with contraception, health protection etc)?
It's relevant in regards to legality. Imagine if the laws were dropped and anyone could have multiple legal partners. So, you and your husband could have a second husband and/or second wife. No problem, really, but things get sticky with legal issues. Who gets what if there's divorce? How about kids? Who gets to make medical decisions on a partner needing an operation? Monogamy is always relevant between partners--you can't have one who doesn't want it and one who does--but, no, it isn't relevant by way of law or society except that it simplifies property ownership, custody rights, etc.

In the old days when the man owned everything, and his multiple wives had no rights or ownership of anything, multiple legal partners were easy. Multiple legal partners in the here and now would be a legal nightmare.

- Do you think they're a good idea/do you practice them?
I practice monogamy and so does my husband. That's a personal choice. I think it's a good idea because human emotions are complicated enough. Resentment, jealousy, guilt, feelings of inadequacy...it's hard enough to deal with that stuff with one partner, do you really want to deal with it from more than one? What a headache!

- Is it the automatic end of a relationship if one partner looks elsewhere?
It is if there isn't honesty about it. Sneaking around doing anything that you can't be open and honest with your partner about--and get them onboard with--is always the end of a relationship. It's the end in that you're lying to them, and it's the end in that you can't be whoever you are. If you marry someone who wants you committed only to them, and you can't do it, then you'd better not marry them. There are men/women out there who are "swingers" and will happily let you fool around with others so long as the sex is safe.

- How about for bisexuals - is it valid for them to have a partner of each sex, or is that just greedy?
You marry a person, not a sex. And that goes for everyone.

- If you 'cheat' should you feel guilty? Why?
Absolutely I'd feel guilty. Because my partner has given his all to making me happy and if there is something I need, I should go to him first to get it, not try to find it from someone else. Things can be worked out--and if they really can't (like a bisexual really, really needed sex with a different gender than that of their partner), well that goes back to being open and honest with the other person. Cheating involves lying and sneaking around. And it just is never a good idea.

- If you cheat, should you ever tell your SO, or is it a case of 'what the eye don;t see...'?
If that were to ever happen (and I honestly can't see it happening), I'd never tell my SO. He wouldn't want to know...unless I cheat with a woman, in which case, he'd want pictures

 

[Pure]

//If it would be hurtful to the other person, than it's cheating//

that's pretty stringent; i couldn't agree. regarding the past it's often best not to recount certain things.

here's a better example: i'm reading another AH thread here and it's about Joe S and Emily Watson, so I look up her picture on the 'net, and yes she is foxy. i think of fucking her-- after a few more years, of course; i know lit rules.

i think that might be hurtful if told, but it's not cheating, IMO. and, it probably should not be told.

 

[Recidiva]

//If it would be hurtful to the other person, than it's cheating//

that's pretty stringent; i couldn't agree. regarding the past it's often best not to recount certain things.

here's a better example: i'm reading another AH thread here and it's about Joe S and Emily Watson, so I look up her picture on the 'net, and yes she is foxy. i think of fucking her-- after a few more years, of course; i know lit rules.

i think that might be hurtful if told, but it's not cheating, IMO. and, it probably should not be told.

I will never be able to avoid hurting my partner. I can't promise I will never do anything to hurt him. Nor is hurting him a capital offense.

I think that my husband knowing I might be achingly attracted to other people, but that he outweighs that and I wouldn't act on it because he's worth that sacrifice to me...has its own benefits.

 

[CeriseNoire]

//If it would be hurtful to the other person, than it's cheating//

that's pretty stringent; i couldn't agree. regarding the past it's often best not to recount certain things.

here's a better example: i'm reading another AH thread here and it's about Joe S and Emily Watson, so I look up her picture on the 'net, and yes she is foxy. i think of fucking her-- after a few more years, of course; i know lit rules.

i think that might be hurtful if told, but it's not cheating, IMO. and, it probably should not be told.

Actually I was referring to what might be cheating as far as kissing, cybering, etc (as per her question). Besides she asked what we individually considered cheating.

For me it's simply those things (in the context of a relationship) that are done despite knowing one's partner would consider them cheating. So maybe I should have said instead that if you do something that you know your partner sees as cheating, then you've cheated.

 

[Recidiva]

Actually I was referring to what might be cheating as far as kissing, cybering, etc (as per her question). Besides she asked what we individually considered cheating.

For me it's simply those things (in the context of a relationship) that are done despite knowing one's partner would consider them cheating. So maybe I should have said instead that if you do something that you know your partner sees as cheating, then you've cheated.

I think that if you're a couple, you need to behave as a couple and act as a couple.

You're right in that if you don't bring something up that you think might be a problem, you're liable.

Husband and I used to be online sluts. Lots of cyber. This is a perfect spot for cyber, which I consider to be creative writing. He doesn't like that idea and believes strongly that I shouldn't. But I did have to ask him. I considered it sorta no big deal, but I did ask. He was insulted I had to ask. I asked him would he rather I assumed it was no big deal and did it anyway? But I didn't really argue, and I don't cyber. Sometimes you just get a pass on the things you feel strongly about.

 

[3113]

For me it's simply those things (in the context of a relationship) that are done despite knowing one's partner would consider them cheating. So maybe I should have said instead that if you do something that you know your partner sees as cheating, then you've cheated.

That's a very good point. But going the other way, I think both parties need to be upfront about what they consider cheating before the vows are said. It isn't really fair to spring it on someone that, now that you're married, they can no longer have drinks with friends of the opposite sex because you consider that cheating.

 

[CeriseNoire]

I agree with both of you 3113 and Recidiva. That's why I think it's knowing what you did would be a problem before hand. I can't expect anyone to read my mind, but if you know that your mate considers kissing cheating for example, and you go out and kiss someone else, then you've cheated.

 

[Jeanx2storm]

That's a very good point. But going the other way, I think both parties need to be upfront about what they consider cheating before the vows are said. It isn't really fair to spring it on someone that, now that you're married, they can no longer have drinks with friends of the opposite sex because you consider that cheating.

3113, so true. Communication is the key and you have to keep doing it because everything's always changing! (I know I am).

 

[WRJames]

- Why do they exist?

It's interesting you don't mention marriage. For me the formal commitment of a marriage is very important -- it means that you and your SO have made a rational, deliberate commitment to the relationship -- something that can get you through those (hopefully) temporary moments when the person you love most is the one that you are angriest at. As the double standard thread has pointed out in gory detail (yes, I have been reading it but there is no way I am going to post there!) fidelity has been imposed more upon wives than husbands, and monogamy is certainly not a universal social custom. But in many marriages, including mine, it is something each partner expects of the other.

- Are they still relevant in today's society (with contraception, health protection etc)?

I think the threat of HIV makes fidelity a very relevant health issue.

- Do you think they're a good idea/do you practice them?

Yes/ yes

- Is it the automatic end of a relationship if one partner looks elsewhere?

I had other serious relationships prior to marriage that were not as restrictive. They survived a few side trips (at least temporarily)

- How about for bisexuals - is it valid for them to have a partner of each sex, or is that just greedy?

In my novels I have a few three way and four way arrangements.

- If you 'cheat' should you feel guilty? Why?

Isn't the definition of cheating that it makes you feel guilty?

- If you cheat, should you ever tell your SO, or is it a case of 'what the eye don;t see...'?

When my wife read Texas Mermaids she asked my how much of that was true. This is at least fifteen years after the fact(?).
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New Questions
- How do you define cheating? A kiss, a thought, a fuck?

If it's a thought, all males are in deep yogurt. What kind of kiss?

- Would you rather your partner was physically faithful, but emotionally involved with someone else or emotionally involved only with you, but physically unfaithful?

Either would be unsettling in my current relationship. In the old days, I did have relationships that survived physical infidelity without too much damage.
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