Feminist vs Feminine

[Cherry]

Can we have a mature discussion, sharing different viewpoints, without attacking opposing viewpoints, about the two?

In an attempt to fully understand each other's attitudes, agree or disagree, using examples to support theory, but without resorting to insults or namecalling, will you open yourself up to explain why you feel one way or the other?

It has been evident for some time, that there are two camps of thinking, a significant difference between posters, between the Feminist and Feminine posting style regarding sexuality.

Usually, when the differences become apparent, it evolves into a catty repertoire of bantering that never really answers how we each have arrived at our own beliefs, nor describes the full explanation of our arguement.

Take your time and express yourself fully ... I'm not looking for one-liners here. Let's get it out in the open once and for all, and discuss it like adults.

Tolerance comes with understanding, misconceptions fuel flame wars.

Both male and female contributions welcome. Who dares to go first?

 

[kotori]

I don't understand. It's not like they are mutually exclusive.

(Should I have used the Phil Donaghue AV for this one?)

 

[just pet]

Can we have a mature discussion, sharing different viewpoints, without attacking opposing viewpoints, about the two?

In an attempt to fully understand each other's attitudes, agree or disagree, using examples to support theory, but without resorting to insults or namecalling, will you open yourself up to explain why you feel one way or the other?

It has been evident for some time, that there are two camps of thinking, a significant difference between posters, between the Feminist and Feminine posting style regarding sexuality.

Usually, when the differences become apparent, it evolves into a catty repertoire of bantering that never really answers how we each have arrived at our own beliefs, nor describes the full explanation of our arguement.

Take your time and express yourself fully ... I'm not looking for one-liners here. Let's get it out in the open once and for all, and discuss it like adults.

Tolerance comes with understanding, misconceptions fuel flame wars.

Both male and female contributions welcome. Who dares to go first?

You first... I don't see that "evident... two camps"... I am in both.

 

[CarolineOh]

I don't understand. It's not like they are mutually exclusive.

(Should I have used the Phil Donaghue AV for this one?)

I agree. It is a false dichotomy.
I am a feminist. I am educated, empowered, own my own business and have control over my life in every meaningful regard. In no way does that negate my femininity. There is no point to feminism if it does.
There have been times that I rolled my eyes at some of the really out there sexual posts, and other times when my mood was such that I joined in the fun. I understand both the discomfort some women feel about the blatantly sexual posts, and I understand the liberating joy of parading one's sexuality openly on the board.
In the most recent dust up I saw the merits and the demerits of both sides. There are people posting here that I just can't stand, but there is no upside that I can see to pointing them out, or telling them so. There are too many posts to read every day anyhow, so it's not a problem to ignore them. At the same time I join in condemning the practice of anonymous flaming.
To maintain a successful community, the center must hold. Put me down as a militant moderate.

 

[*bratcat*]

You are the perfect moderator for this discussion, Cherry...

 

[AzureAngel]

Maybe it should've been phrased differently? I imagine that the split was based on a rather popular view that being a feminist means you're the next best thing to an Amazon. Heh. Perhaps I'm wrong.

 

[Cherry]

I don't understand. It's not like they are mutually exclusive.

Oh! but they are mutually exclusive at times on the GB.

What I'm asking about is the great divide that has been exhibited between posters who have frequently interjected strong beliefs in the form of 'hit and run' attacks, without expanding on their beliefs.

The different viewpoints, as I have tidied up to be Feminist vs Feminine, are often demonstrated through our online posting styles, by example in these recent threads:

http://literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=77763

http://literotica.com/forum/showthread.php?threadid=77809


From my own point of view, I see the Feminist attitude as one that takes offense to a "feigned" feminine sexuality or "sleaze", the insinuation being that others diminish respect or strength of women by portraying themselves as sexual beings; whereas, I see the Feminine attitude as one that revels in the expression and joy of their sexuality as part of their strength.

Occasionally, the two mindsets collide, but rarely is either side definitive about the strengths of their beliefs. We get close to discussion, but never really expand past sharp retorts.

 

[Willing and Unsure]

that's the thing Azure Angel.. the general stereotype/view of a feminist is like bratcat said.. bra burning chop off his balls type individual. only that's not true of all, if in fact most feminists. I for one am a feminist, I'm proud to say that as well. and all at the same time I am feminine (to a point) and am proud of that as well. It's things like the stereotype that is set that gets many people to not want to claim to be a feminist.

however, my beliefs as a feminist are that I do want to see everyone, and I do mean everyone, have equal rights in all aspects, not just some. and in order for that to happen, someone has to fight for it. Be it the women, the homosexuals, the other races and groups that are fighting. I just dont care to see the possibility of myself being oppressed in some way. Why should I want to see someone else feeling the same way that I could/would?

 

[Cherry]

I agree. It is a false dichotomy.
I am a feminist. I am educated, empowered, own my own business and have control over my life in every meaningful regard. In no way does that negate my femininity. There is no point to feminism if it does.

That's exactly what I am talking about, Caroline.

 

[seXieleXie]

god this pisses me off. cherry, you aren't starting this discussion off by "sharing different viewpoints, without attacking opposing viewpoints," obviously you're trying to put down what you view the feminist view point to be.

but to address the question, the two are NOT mutually exclusive. all of the feminists on this board revel in their sexuality. all of us take great joy and pride in our sexual selves. that is part of our strength. what lavy and others have said they take exception to is that some women are only that sexual side. however, they have explained this opinion time and again with great clarity and eloquence. it hasn't been "hit and run attacks."

christ i'm tired of being attacked for being a feminist.

 

[Paendragon]

Feminism has become a dirty word lately, and I think that's a shame. It's viewed as a group of man-hating proponents of castration and emasculation, which on the whole, is absurd. Yes, there is a small percentage, who seem to revel in pointing out the flaws of men, and blaming us for all the worlds ills.

I'm reminded of a poem we discussed in my Women in World Literature class, "From Eve to Her Daughters". It was just as the title explained, a poem writtin by the mythical Eve, to all the women of today. It basically railed against the the fact that women have shouldered the blame for getting thrown out of Paradise, and just about every evil since. I applauded the idea. My problem with the poem, was the author, in turn, blamed everything on men (most notably technology, and progress) as being the root of our downfall. I felt the poem was counter productive, and silly(the invention of the toaster doomed us to hell?); the same way I feel about extremist feminism.

On the other hand, feminism is necessary, as long as there is wage and sex discrimination. Someone needs to champion women's rights. It shocks me that we still have these problems, but we do.

As for the Feminine vs. Feminist debate, my SO is an extraordinarily sexy, incredibly feminine Feminist.

I hope i didn't go too far off topic. i tend to ramble.

 

[sexy-girl]

the only thing is most feminist aren't going to say they aren't feminine

and most feminine women wouldnt entirely admit to not being a feminist

however i do understand about what you are saying with i suppose the difference being is that some women use femininity as a tool and others prefer not too

 

[Cherry]

By jove! I think she's got it!

As you have BOTH going for you.

Well, thank you, kitty girl. I take that as a compliment.

I think the "old" school way of thinking - ie burn the bra, etc - showed an extreme view of feminism. Some posters here still relate to that school of thinking.

Yup, and I'm not criticizing their point of view entirely ... since, I understand it is beneficial to women. I just think they sometimes miss the JOY! aspect of being a woman.

You can be feminine while believing in a moderated form of feminism. I believe that is where I am.

I agree with you there, too. To me, sexuality is a gift to treasure ... I enjoy my own, I'm not at all offended when another woman displays hers.

I don't believe that you have to break someone's balls to get your point across. The same can be accomplished in a less aggressive manner.

Yup, why do I visualize combat boots when they do that?

Flirting can take place on both levels. I don't think that being feminine should automatically negate a person's mind. Just as I don't believe that being a feminist should automatically negate a person's sexuality.

It all boils down to being aggressive or assertive or a fine balance of the two.

(did that make sense?) [/QUOTE]

You done good, girlie! It makes perfect sense to me, too.

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[sexy-girl]

its a touchy subject years of feelings built up over this subject ... notice most men know best to stay away ?


cherry is brave for trying to start a serious discussion on it ... everyone should give her a break if they are bothered by way she phrased any of the questions because its not an easy thing to sum up in one post


by way i considor myself a feminist

 

[Paendragon]

its a touchy subject years of feelings built up over this subject ... notice most men know best to stay away ?

I've never been accused of knowing when to keep my mouth shut, lol.

 

[*bratcat*]

 

[JazzManJim]

There is a contingent here who seems to believe that a woman who posts mostly about sex and sexuality, especially her own, is below respect and has something wrong with her. I think that's bullshit. I also think it's a tad hypocritical.

I understand that every person here has a fully realized personality. It may be warped, twisted, cracked, or have some other eefect, but it exists in toto whether they reveal it fully or not. I have taked with a couple of these "hypersexual" (I'm going to steal that word, because I like it) posters in PMs and I've found, as I had suspected, that there's much more to them than just that. It happens to be that their sexuality is what they most enjoy featuring on the boards.

I can't believe that doing so is a refuation of femenism. In fact, I find that to do so, and retain your personality, and to garner respect for being a complete person, is exactly what feminism was founded to do. Women are complete people and everything about them, including their sexuality, is game to be displayed as they choose, in whatever forum they choose.

This is an erotic board. Of course people here are going to lead with their sexuality. Some may nearly exclusively lead with that, and leave most other parts of their personality hidden. That's their choice, but they're not acting out of character for the boards or the site itself. They certainly do not deserve derision, or to claim that they in some way harm the cause of feminism.

I'm going to toss out a couple examples. Rubyfruit is as open and honest a sexual poster as I've ever seen around the boards. I would dare to say that most of her posts, in some way, deal with sex - hers or someone else's. She's flirty, unabashed, and unashamed. juicylips is nearly exactly the same way. Very few of their threads are deep and philisophical. That's cool. Both of them, though, are complete people - and I treat them both as complete people. I see no reason not to. Neither of them, IMO, do anything to diminish my respect for them, or for women in general. In fact, I have more respect for them because they are comfortable with who and what they are than I do for a lot of other posters here. I think they're both feminine and feminist in the same person, and that's the way it should be.

 

[sexy-girl]

i did say i considor ... although others might think different


i thought more about it i guess what feminists dont like is when a woman uses her femininity as a tool when that perhaps lowers the image of herself as being a capable woman in the eyes of a man


by way im not claiming anyone around here does that personally i think most woman nowadays are feminist's even when they dont admit it or say they are

 

[tortoise]

Just dropping in to reiterate that JMJ rocks.

Carry on.

 

[Cherry]

god this pisses me off. cherry, you aren't starting this discussion off by "sharing different viewpoints, without attacking opposing viewpoints," obviously you're trying to put down what you view the feminist view point to be.

Nope, Lexie ... I started off by requesting a calm discussion of the different viewpoints. Your incorrect observation that I am trying to "put down" either side must have been read between the lines somewhere. Actually, I feel the differences have a lot of merit going for them on both sides of the divide. Don't get pissed off, interact with me here.

but to address the question, the two are NOT mutually exclusive.

I don't see them as being "mutually inclusive" either ... there have been too many threads with opposing viewpoints expressed to say that they ARE one in the same.

Frankly, it usually is the Feminist camp that feels the need to attack the women who express or portray themselves sexually ... rarely, if ever, do I see them attack men who are sexually flirtatious (except for the Jock thread which was hilarious).

all of the feminists on this board revel in their sexuality. all of us take great joy and pride in our sexual selves. that is part of our strength. what lavy and others have said they take exception to is that some women are only that sexual side.

Uh oh! Okay, there goes the "intolerant" flag waving again!

So, what you're saying is that it's alright for women to enjoy their sexuality, but not express it unless they also show another dimension of themselves? And ... that feminists are the monitors of this activity?

however, they have explained this opinion time and again with great clarity and eloquence. it hasn't been "hit and run attacks."

I disagree. I've yet to see the clarity and eloquence that you refer to ... there have been the beginnings of some discussion ... but, yet to be fulfilled entirely. That was the whole purpose of this thread, Lexie. To open a discussion to fully express the different attitudes regarding posting styles as they relate to feminine sexualtiy.

christ i'm tired of being attacked for being a feminist.

Strange, I never thought of you as one until now ... I had you more in the "enjoys being a girl and flaunting it" category.

Edited to add a smiley face (not to ruffle feathers)

 

[sexy-girl]

So, what you're saying is that it's alright for women to enjoy their sexuality, but not express it unless they also show another dimension of themselves? And ... that feminists are the monitors of this activity?

i think actually that is part of it ... feminists i guess dislike the idea of women portraying themselves as one dimensional


however i dont think anyone has right to tell anyone how to act on here ... or to monitor how someone acts on here either ... because here is'nt real life and its up to the individual of how many dimensions of their characters they wish to show here

 

[Hamletmaschine]

. . . JMJ rocks.

I second that. Nice post JazzMan, thanks.

Get your ass back in here, Tortoise, and we men will hijack this thread and straighten these women out once and for all. And my tongue was firmly in my cheek when I wrote the preceding sentence.

I agree with others who've said the dichotomy in the original proposition is a false one. Setting the terms of the debate in that fashion is only going to fuel some people's ire, as I see it. One is obliged to choose the feminist camp and deny one's femininity, or choose to be feminine and deny that one is a feminist. Otherwise, there's no debate. And, clearly, people aren't willing to go there.

Better perhaps to state the matter thus: given that feminism and femininity are not mutually exclusive, does foregrounding one aspect of a woman's identity in her online interactions necessarily entail sacrificing the other?

This might lead to an interesting consideration of styles of femininity--of femininity as style. Clearly, one can perform one's femininity in such a way as to conceal any feminist political leanings one might have. But the more interesting question is whether to do so also entails a regressive political move, one that works against the feminist political aims of gender equality.

Now . . . carry on.

 

[Cherry]

Back to this post ...

Originally posted by CarolineOh

I agree. It is a false dichotomy.
I am a feminist. I am educated, empowered, own my own business and have control over my life in every meaningful regard. In no way does that negate my femininity. There is no point to feminism if it does.

I agree with you wholeheartedly, that the two (attitudes toward Femininity and Feminism) should and can be the same. I'm glad that you made that distinction.

But, can you agree ... that when the Feminist militant viewpoint spoken overrides the Feminine tendencies of the woman posting, it leaves the reader with the opinion that the person speaking is hardened? Don't harsh and unwarranted criticisms of another's sexually eplicit postings or visuals only tend to diminish the feminine aspect of their own persona?

Is it necessary to defend an opinion by being critical of another poster's style? Do all women have to be card-carrying militants to preserve equality?

Discuss, please.

 

[Cherry]

Yeah ...

what Hamlet said, so much clearer ... that's what I was asking.