Feminism and submission

[Elle_Charlotte]

So I was wondering about something. I earlier talked to another woman in the BDSM community, and she told me that you couldn't be submissive to men and still be a feminist. I think you can, because you don't need to want to be "equal" in a relationship to support women always being able to choose. If a woman chooses to be her boyfriend's bimbo, and makes this decision because she wants this, I think it empowers her. More than a career woman that makes that choice under pressure of society.

Do you have to choose to be a career women domme to be a feminist (extreme example )?

 

[CutieMouse]

Submission doesn't mean not equal. A lot of people in D/s relationships view it as "equal but different". A common metaphor is that of a coin - is heads better than tails? Does the coin lose value if it lands tails up instead of heads up? PYLs are one side of the coin; pyls, the other.


PYL = dominant, master, top, etc
pyl = bottom, submissive, slave, etc

Feminists fought for the right for women to have the same (or at least similar) options as men. If you look at the history of feminism in America, it boiled down to voting rights and post-marital rights. Single women had the right to own property, businesses, act as legal executors, and make 99% of their decisions. Male land owners were allowed to vote; female land owners were not. Women also lost the right to own property, businesses, etc upon marriage - at which point everything was legally transferred to the husband.

When I hear "you can't be a feminist and...", I presume the person saying that doesn't really understand the history and intent behind the feminist movement. I also question their contribution to "the cause", given that at its core their argument (you have to do X to qualify as a feminist) IMO contributes to the social construct that controls what women can and can't do... The entire reason for the feminist movement, in the first place.

 

[Raingirl85]

If you choose to be submissive, what does that have to do with feminism or lack there of? Being submissive is part of my personality. I would still be submissive if I were a man. I am bi and enjoy being sub with a Dominant woman as well. I also consider myself a feminist. I also hate ice cream and love tarantulas. These things are not mutually exclusive.

 

[Blue]

_____

 

[LadyDystopia]

In my humble oppinion it shouldn't be essential there is a feminism. Feminism was the not quite perfect answer to a world where men were by far considered of more worth as a human being than women. The perfect answer to a culture like it would be that humans i generel should be considered as equal. Without any restrictions. Just like that. Everyone can do, be and believe what they want with a guaranteed right to live this in every aspect in their life.

So, if you ask me, I am for everyone to do whatever makes them happy. And if someone wants to give up their rights or change everything he or she is to look like another person wants them to- as long, as it makes everyone happy, they should. Without any limits but respecting all around them. Even if they have completely different beliefs or wishes for themselves. Respect for everybody from everybody. What a beautiful thought, huh?

 

[Tommybowler]

Submission doesn't mean not equal. A lot of people in D/s relationships view it as "equal but different". A common metaphor is that of a coin - is heads better than tails? Does the coin lose value if it lands tails up instead of heads up? PYLs are one side of the coin; pyls, the other.


PYL = dominant, master, top, etc
pyl = bottom, submissive, slave, etc

Feminists fought for the right for women to have the same (or at least similar) options as men. If you look at the history of feminism in America, it boiled down to voting rights and post-marital rights. Single women had the right to own property, businesses, act as legal executors, and make 99% of their decisions. Male land owners were allowed to vote; female land owners were not. Women also lost the right to own property, businesses, etc upon marriage - at which point everything was legally transferred to the husband.

When I hear "you can't be a feminist and...", I presume the person saying that doesn't really understand the history and intent behind the feminist movement. I also question their contribution to "the cause", given that at its core their argument (you have to do X to qualify as a feminist) IMO contributes to the social construct that controls what women can and can't do... The entire reason for the feminist movement, in the first place.

This this this 100% this. My reply would had carried the same meaning only would not have been expressed as well.

Case. Fucking. Closed. Tom

 

[Tommybowler]

In my humble oppinion it shouldn't be essential there is a feminism. Feminism was the not quite perfect answer to a world where men were by far considered of more worth as a human being than women. The perfect answer to a culture like it would be that humans i generel should be considered as equal. Without any restrictions. Just like that. Everyone can do, be and believe what they want with a guaranteed right to live this in every aspect in their life.

So, if you ask me, I am for everyone to do whatever makes them happy. And if someone wants to give up their rights or change everything he or she is to look like another person wants them to- as long, as it makes everyone happy, they should. Without any limits but respecting all around them. Even if they have completely different beliefs or wishes for themselves. Respect for everybody from everybody. What a beautiful thought, huh?

You made the subject broader. And I agree totally. Do as you will as long as it does no harm to others.

 

[cookiecat]

I struggled a bit with this as I was discovering bdsm and how submission fit in to my life.

Did it mean I was "less than" or unequal in a relationship if I wanted to give up control and have someone else make decisions for me?

For a very short time, I felt I had to think of myself as not as smart because there were some things I didn't want to control anymore. I thought of myself as a hot mess who needed fixing.

Ugh. Those hot mess things are just things, not defining character flaws. I'm late a lot, I'm an emotional eater, I can be unorganized. I'm responsible for me and it just works better with his help. I will admit, it took me a little time to figure that out.

I realized being in service to my guy really doesn't mean I can't have strong political beliefs, make a ton of dough at a job I love, express my opinion and be heard.

It is, as CM said, two sides of the same coin. I like the complementary aspects of Dominant / submissive. Within a relationship, one doesn't work without the other. We're good at different things.

I can't speak to M/s relationships. In the OP's example of becoming a bimbo, I'm unsure how that fits in to the conversation. If it's the fact it's her choice? Same with slavery? It's her choice so it fits under the feminist umbrella?

 

[Farawyn]

I see many feminists in this forum, in particular, both female and male.

 

[Penuche]

As I understand it, feminism is about choice, and has the core value of not allowing anyone's choices to be limited by what's between their legs.

If, as an adult of more or less sound mind, I freely choose to take a submissive role some of the time, or choose to occasionally wear something which isn't entirely practical - IMHO that's as valid, empowered, and feminist a choice as any other.

 

[Farawyn]

As I understand it, feminism is about choice, and has the core value of not allowing anyone's choices to be limited by what's between their legs.

If, as an adult of more or less sound mind, I freely choose to take a submissive role some of the time, or choose to occasionally wear something which isn't entirely practical - IMHO that's as valid, empowered, and feminist a choice as any other.

Agree.
Sometimes we women are our own worst enemies, though. I also like to think feminism is about supporting each other, rather than the teardown.

 

[desertslave]

I've long maintained that I'm not a feminist, I'm a humanist. I believe that everyone, regardless of gender, should be treated equally and have equal options and choices. Therefore, being submissive to my beloved Master is perfectly reasonable, because it is a choice that I have made, which brings me joy and fulfillment. It doesn't make me weaker, or 'less than' in any way. It simply allows me to be the best me that I can.

 

[La damnee elle la licorne]

 

[SpunThings]

I was taught that feminism is about both genders having equal choice in life, at its most basic. I consider myself a feminist. I get to choose to be a submissive. I get to choose to be a stay at home Mom. I get to choose to to go out in the workforce and my husband choose to be a stay at home dad if he likes. I get to choose to let him make decisions. He gets to choose to let me make decisions. We are both equals, even when one of us is in charge. We both have equal stake in the relationship. We both have equal say in how our relationship plays out. Despite getting significantly different treatment in some cases, we both have our needs equally met.

 

[LadyDystopia]

(Thank you, Tommybowler .)

 

[richard_daily]

Anyone who tries to tell you that you can't be a feminist and submissive is trying to take away your agency, which isn't very feminist of them.

 

[gretchenmilliner]

Re-reading the original post the phrase as written, 'you couldn't be submissive to men and still be a feminist,' is open to several interpretations. If it was intended to mean that 'you couldn't be submissive to all men and still be a feminist,' I could not argue with that. If it meant 'you couldn't be submissive to one particular man and still be a feminist;' I think that is complete nonsense, that's like saying you can't eat chocolate and remain slim. Finally it could have been intended as 'you couldn't be submissive to some men and still be a feminist,' which obviously covers all the shades of grey in between. At least for once everyone who voices an opinion can be right.

 

[Etoile]

Anyone who tries to tell you that you can't be a feminist and submissive is trying to take away your agency, which isn't very feminist of them.

Well said.

 

[malefica]

Feminism is having the right to choose what role one takes. So a feminist who submits to a man and be his slave in a 24/7 TPE relationship is still a feminist, the same as a feminist who dominates men is still a feminist. What dynamic one takes has zero effect on wanting equality, as it strictly orientates around choice and the right to make that choice.

 

[Deacon13]

Feminism is having the right to choose what role one takes. So a feminist who submits to a man and be his slave in a 24/7 TPE relationship is still a feminist, the same as a feminist who dominates men is still a feminist. What dynamic one takes has zero effect on wanting equality, as it strictly orientates around choice and the right to make that choice.

I agree whole heartily

 

[headdoctor]

I've known plenty of feminists (academic, radical, third wave, fourth wave, eco, etc) who are submissive. As one poster said, don't make assumptions about someone else's agency. Perhaps a more interesting question is to reverse it: can a (hetero male) dom be a feminist? The answer, I assume, is yes, by all the logic above. But it becomes more interesting when we add some color to the canvas: can a dom humiliate/degrade a woman and still be a feminist? Can a man have fantasies about being the aggressor in a non-consentual or rape scenario and still be a feminist? Etc.

 

[Netzach]

A couple of flies in the ointment -

Part one:
if we had a less inherently fucked up relation to gender as humans, would be even be interested in power differentials, sexually, to the extent that we are?

Would I be a dominant woman? Can you be a dominant woman and a feminist? Nobody's asking that question, but it's just as relevant.

I'm not sure that we would - I actually think that the anti-sex factions have a point.

Part two:

Here's where I split off. I don't care. I don't think anyone should care. I don't think private sexual activity is going to liberate or fuck over the rest of the world. I don't think images that reflect our baser tropes are going to hurt anyone as much as *actual* enslavement and I don't think representation is the same as reality.

So let's say my sexuality IS NOT some utopian expression of my healthiest self, let's say it's what I've got to work with in a fucked up world, and I join my dysfunction with compatible people for catharsis and doing the best we're going to be able to do.

Is anyone able to claim they're doing better than that? Nope? Good. Then stfu and leave everyone alone. I'm feminist with a small f, and my sexuality isn't any more or less feminist than my jacked up immune system. I didn't pick it.