Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! ;) )

[tolyk]

I want to learn more about poetry, and I am hoping that the varying comments I get from an assorted group of poets will help me learn, at least something.

I have made some revisions to a poem of mine, and I would like some opinions, so I'll show the original version first. I had sought some help from Tarablackwood, and she was very helpful, but I think multiple viewpoints would be more enlightening.

Original version of "Love's Lost Face":

Love's lost face
Is found again.
Eyes that shine,
Brightly with tears
Come closer to mine.
Soft lips parted
Yearn for that
Sweet soft kiss.
Ever eternal bliss
Along with happiness.
Into those eyes
I stare again.
Promises so vast
Bury me deep.
I struggle not
To escape from
These loving bonds.


Modified version:

Love's lost face
is found again.
Crying eyes shining brightly
Come closer to mine.

Tender lips part
yearning
for that sweet, soft kiss,
Eternal bliss

Into those eyes
again I stare,
vast promises
bury me deep.

Love surrounds me
but I do not struggle
to escape these
loving bonds.


Thank you all in advance. -Tol

 

[tungtied2u]

I want to learn more about poetry, and I am hoping that the varying comments I get from an assorted group of poets will help me learn, at least something.

I have made some revisions to a poem of mine, and I would like some opinions, so I'll show the original version first. I had sought some help from Tarablackwood, and she was very helpful, but I think multiple viewpoints would be more enlightening.


Love surrounds me
but I do not struggle
to escape these
loving bonds.


Thank you all in advance. -Tol

One thing that hits me immediately..."surrounds" seems to me to be incongruous with "bonds".

 

[tolyk]

Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

One thing that hits me immediately..."surrounds" seems to me to be incongruous with "bonds".

Do you think "envelops" would be a good replacement for surrounds.

Or perhaps: entwines, enwraps.. or other similiar words such as that.

However, what I was stating about bonds has nothing to do with the surrounds, it has to do with the love itself.. Love is the bond, which I am surrounded by.. If that word doesn't portray that very well to others though, it obviously isn't a good choice.. Thanks for pointing it out.

 

[annaswirls]

Hi I want to learn more about poetry too. I have heard from several poets to avoid -ing verbs. See what it does if I cut them from your poem (as an exercize, I am not sure of the reason behind this suggestion.)

anna

Love's lost face
is found again.
Eyes that cry shine bright
Come closer to mine.

Tender lips part
(and?) yearn
for that sweet, soft kiss,
Eternal bliss

Into those eyes
again I stare,
vast promises
bury me deep.

Love surrounds me
but I do not struggle
to escape these
loving bonds.

hmm I don't know what cutting the ings out does for this actually. Let me try something else.


Okay you asked so I am just giving my midnight impressions
the seeds in this poem are good, they have their own natural scent, and I feel that there has been perfume sprinkled over them, masking their own phermones.

first, eternal bliss does not exist.
nor should it

I had trouble identifying which parts of the poem belonged together

for example:

Love's lost face
is found again.
Crying eyes shine brightly
Come closer to mine.

whose eyes are crying, the lost face or yours?
are the crying eyes saying "come closer"
to mine-- to my crying eyes? To my face?

just a little confusing to me.

I am sorry I am tired I am being all business not adding sweetener.

After reading both versions, I think you did a good job editing some of the perfume, (for example, if you have "come closer" and "soft lips, parted" yearning is implied..... not needed. I think I figured out the underlying message.

roughly translated, I interpreted the poem saying something like this to me:


loves lost face is found again
in eyes that shine bright with tears.

come closer
soft lips, parted


I stare into those eyes again,
this time I am buried deep in promises,
bound in love
without struggle.



okay I keep trying to edit my own intepretation and I gotta sleep, please do not think I think my version is better or anything like that. It is just my interpretation.

Keep on writing, you are a good man for asking for suggestions, not always easy.

And please know that we learn more than you do when you ask for suggestions, this is all about learning.

Hiope you dont mind me messin with your poem,

take care, sweet dreams,

~as

I want to learn more about poetry, and I am hoping that the varying comments I get from an assorted group of poets will help me learn, at least something.

I have made some revisions to a poem of mine, and I would like some opinions, so I'll show the original version first. I had sought some help from Tarablackwood, and she was very helpful, but I think multiple viewpoints would be more enlightening.

Original version of "Love's Lost Face":

Love's lost face
Is found again.
Eyes that shine,
Brightly with tears
Come closer to mine.
Soft lips parted
Yearn for that
Sweet soft kiss.
Ever eternal bliss
Along with happiness.
Into those eyes
I stare again.
Promises so vast
Bury me deep.
I struggle not
To escape from
These loving bonds.


loves lost face is found again
in eyes that shine bright with tears.

come closer
soft lips, parted

Into those eyes
I stare again
Buried deep in promises
without struggle.


Modified version:

Love's lost face
is found again.
Crying eyes shining brightly
Come closer to mine.

Tender lips part
yearning
for that sweet, soft kiss,
Eternal bliss

Into those eyes
again I stare,
vast promises
bury me deep.

Love surrounds me
but I do not struggle
to escape these
loving bonds.


Thank you all in advance. -Tol

 

[tungtied2u]

Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

Hi I want to learn more about poetry too. I have heard from several poets to avoid -ing verbs. See what it does if I cut them from your poem (as an exercize, I am not sure of the reason behind this suggestion.)

anna

Love's lost face
is found again.
Eyes that cry shine bright
Come closer to mine.

Tender lips part
(and?) yearn
for that sweet, soft kiss,
Eternal bliss

Into those eyes
again I stare,
vast promises
bury me deep.

Love surrounds me
but I do not struggle
to escape these
loving bonds.

hmm I don't know what cutting the ings out does for this actually. Let me try something else.


Okay you asked so I am just giving my midnight impressions
the seeds in this poem are good, they have their own natural scent, and I feel that there has been perfume sprinkled over them, masking their own phermones.

first, eternal bliss does not exist.
nor should it

I had trouble identifying which parts of the poem belonged together

for example:



whose eyes are crying, the lost face or yours?
are the crying eyes saying "come closer"
to mine-- to my crying eyes? To my face?

just a little confusing to me.

I am sorry I am tired I am being all business not adding sweetener.

After reading both versions, I think you did a good job editing some of the perfume, (for example, if you have "come closer" and "soft lips, parted" yearning is implied..... not needed. I think I figured out the underlying message.

roughly translated, I interpreted the poem saying something like this to me:


loves lost face is found again
in eyes that shine bright with tears.

come closer
soft lips, parted


I stare into those eyes again,
this time I am buried deep in promises,
bound in love
without struggle.



okay I keep trying to edit my own intepretation and I gotta sleep, please do not think I think my version is better or anything like that. It is just my interpretation.

Keep on writing, you are a good man for asking for suggestions, not always easy.

And please know that we learn more than you do when you ask for suggestions, this is all about learning.

Hiope you dont mind me messin with your poem,

take care, sweet dreams,

~as

Jeez, I gotta say... anna..that is a wonderful condensation.. no foul meant tolyk..but you have to admit...quite a rewrite.. thank you both.

 

[Liar]

Tolyk, let me see if my warped input can be of any use to you...

As always, take it or leave it, these are 'thought models' that works for me when writing, I dont give any guarantees that they will be of any worth to anyone else.

When I look over my own poems, I look for three things when I consider the purely technical part of it - what words and phrases I choose.

1. Metaphoric level
2. Relevance
3. Tone

With metaphoric level, I pretty much mean... How far fetched are your descriptions? If I want to say "Planet Earth", I can say that. That would be a low level of metaphor - no metaphor at all. Or I coukld say "Our Homeplanet" which is a higher level of metaphor. Or I can say "The third ping pong ball from the sun." Still quite to the point, but a little more far fetched. Or how about "A blue soap bubble of life in the cold and empty void." Now wer're beginning to talk far out metaphors. But really, aren't those more interresting to read?

You poem seems to me to consist on the first and second level of metaphors ("Tender lips part" - they are tender and they do part. "to escape these loving bonds" - nobody tied you up, but it's a pretty direct metaphor)


With relevance I mean that it is a good idea to see if your poetic formulations works in the context of the poem and together with each other. (The higher metaphorical level, the harder this seems to get, it's a bit of a delicate path to follow.) Does "Love's lost face" talk about losing face, as in embarrassment? If not, then what is the face reference about? If it is about losing face, you need to reconnect to that through the poem more - put in references to blushes and averting eyes...that kind of thing. And the vast promises that bury you deep...what do they bury you deep into...how, and by what means? Right now it's a statement that stands alone in a poem that talks nothing of things that it can relate to.

Try to connect several metaphors and themes... go with the lost face for instance, and use a reference to it in the middle somewhere , and especially in the end, to tie things together.

Here's a lame examlpe, but I hope you get the idea:
my aditions in italics

Love's lost face
is found again.

...

Again I stare into eyes
that only yesterday
did not dare
to meet mine.

...

to escape these
loving bonds.
Love is here,
afraid no more.


The third and last part is the tone. The general feel of the poem. Yours is very emotional, very pretencious. And I don't mean pretencious in a bad way, just stating that the tone in it is uncompromisingly serious - some poems are supposed to be. And I don't see why you should change that here, the mesage is serious as hell, soI think you have the right tone for it. The risk with this tone however is that the reader isn't in the same mindset as you were when you wrote it, and will only spot the obvoius references to the extremely value-heavy words like "eternal bliss", "crying eyes" and so on and go 'oh give me a break'. If you choose to write those thinds through the filter of metaphors and images you can get away with much much more romantic fluff.


There you have it. This might make nada sense to you or anyone else, but that's the way the Liar's mind works.

#L

 

[tolyk]

Liar, thank you for the information. It does all indeed make sense, but it might take me some time to be able to apply it all. Practice makes perfect they say.

Anna, I don't mind you messing with my poem at all. However, I find the version without the "ing"s much too abrupt. Your condensment of the poem isn't quite accurate for how I intended it. However, I was unable to sleep again today and I'm really kind of braindead at the moment, so I'll try to explain what I mean from my own poem a time where I'm more awake.

 

[annaswirls]

Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

Tolyk, let me see if my warped input can be of any use to you...

As always, take it or leave it, these are 'thought models' that works for me when writing, I dont give any guarantees that they will be of any worth to anyone else.

When I look over my own poems, I look for three things when I consider the purely technical part of it - what words and phrases I choose.

1. Metaphoric level
2. Relevance
3. Tone

With metaphoric level, I pretty much mean... How far fetched are your descriptions? If I want to say "Planet Earth", I can say that. That would be a low level of metaphor - no metaphor at all. Or I coukld say "Our Homeplanet" which is a higher level of metaphor. Or I can say "The third ping pong ball from the sun." Still quite to the point, but a little more far fetched. Or how about "A blue soap bubble of life in the cold and empty void." Now wer're beginning to talk far out metaphors. But really, aren't those more interresting to read?

You poem seems to me to consist on the first and second level of metaphors ("Tender lips part" - they are tender and they do part. "to escape these loving bonds" - nobody tied you up, but it's a pretty direct metaphor)


With relevance I mean that it is a good idea to see if your poetic formulations works in the context of the poem and together with each other. (The higher metaphorical level, the harder this seems to get, it's a bit of a delicate path to follow.) Does "Love's lost face" talk about losing face, as in embarrassment? If not, then what is the face reference about? If it is about losing face, you need to reconnect to that through the poem more - put in references to blushes and averting eyes...that kind of thing. And the vast promises that bury you deep...what do they bury you deep into...how, and by what means? Right now it's a statement that stands alone in a poem that talks nothing of things that it can relate to.

Try to connect several metaphors and themes... go with the lost face for instance, and use a reference to it in the middle somewhere , and especially in the end, to tie things together.

Here's a lame examlpe, but I hope you get the idea:
my aditions in italics

Love's lost face
is found again.

...

Again I stare into eyes
that only yesterday
did not dare
to meet mine.

...

to escape these
loving bonds.
Love is here,
afraid no more.


The third and last part is the tone. The general feel of the poem. Yours is very emotional, very pretencious. And I don't mean pretencious in a bad way, just stating that the tone in it is uncompromisingly serious - some poems are supposed to be. And I don't see why you should change that here, the mesage is serious as hell, soI think you have the right tone for it. The risk with this tone however is that the reader isn't in the same mindset as you were when you wrote it, and will only spot the obvoius references to the extremely value-heavy words like "eternal bliss", "crying eyes" and so on and go 'oh give me a break'. If you choose to write those thinds through the filter of metaphors and images you can get away with much much more romantic fluff.


There you have it. This might make nada sense to you or anyone else, but that's the way the Liar's mind works.

#L

Excellent Liar.
I hope you can do me I mean, my poem someday! Thank you for this lesson! I need to go back to school desperately or get a mentor or something.

~a

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

Excellent Liar.
I hope you can do me I mean, my poem someday! Thank you for this lesson! I need to go back to school desperately or get a mentor or something.

~a

You're kidding, right? I wanna take lessions from you.

 

[flyguy69]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

You're kidding, right? I wanna take lessions from you.

First it was zits on asses, now we're getting lesions from anna. I feel like put condoms on my fingers before logging on, here. You sure you want to learn poetry from these guys, Tolyk?

Seriously, Liar (why does that look odd?), your contributions are exceptionally helpful because of the academic slant you add. You illuminate the connection between the mechanics of writing and the desired effects upon the reader. I don't know what you're studying, but feel like I ought to pick up part of your tuition. Or at least the next beer.

 

[Reltne]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

. . .
Seriously, Liar (why does that look odd?), your contributions are exceptionally helpful because of the academic slant you add. You illuminate the connection between the mechanics of writing and the desired effects upon the reader. I don't know what you're studying, but feel like I ought to pick up part of your tuition. Or at least the next beer.

"I second the emotion!" Liar is always enlightening and insightful. And I am always doubly amazed because English is not his native language (I believe that is correct.)

Anna does not need poetry lessons, but if anybody teaches website creation (and especially finishing), she, Angeline, and Wicked Eve might be interested!

 

[Liar]

People, stop it. You're making me blush. Thank's for the confidence, I guess. I'm sure I can find a way to use it to deploy some evil scheme to take over the world some day.

But actually, I did teach website creation.

Got bored out of my shoes, so now I'm back in school. Rhetorics and rhetorical analysis. I very much recommended anyone involved in creative writing to get hold of some good book about the stuff that Aristoteles and Cicero modeled in them goode olde days. The rhetoric process steps, the eloquence devices, mnemonic techniques, I mean dayum...those guys were clever.

I only have stuff by Swedish gurus on the subject, but there should be some good ones in English out there. Here's one. I haven't read it so I can't say if it's good or not, but it sems to cover the right basic stuff, and the reviews are all good.

#L

 

[annaswirls]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

You're kidding, right? I wanna take lessions from you.

Thank you for the kind compliment, but I must protest:

Sir, I am the one who needs tutoring. I really am untrained, and have much to learn.

I can see what I like, but cannot explain why, I know when something doesn't sound right, but I am not sure how to fix it, and I can never figure out where to break my lines.... I do not want to become snooty but I would like to be able to have a half-way intelligent conversation about the thing that occupies my mind and time. Ya know?

like use the word enjambment without thinking twice (damn I don't know what it is and I bet you will have a link right there for me )

~anna

 

[annaswirls]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

Hey Mister, you better watch it, I am clean damn it! And pure! You will taint my good reputation if you are not careful.

(but those little finger condoms are so cute! I want a new AV of flyguy with finger condoms.)

edited to add: on his FINGERS

okay I wiggled my nose. I bobbed my pony tail... where is that av?

~annna

First it was zits on asses, now we're getting lesions from anna. I feel like put condoms on my fingers before logging on, here. You sure you want to learn poetry from these guys, Tolyk?

Seriously, Liar (why does that look odd?), your contributions are exceptionally helpful because of the academic slant you add. You illuminate the connection between the mechanics of writing and the desired effects upon the reader. I don't know what you're studying, but feel like I ought to pick up part of your tuition. Or at least the next beer.

 

[annaswirls]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

"I second the emotion!" Liar is always enlightening and insightful. And I am always doubly amazed because English is not his native language (I believe that is correct.)

Anna does not need poetry lessons, but if anybody teaches website creation (and especially finishing), she, Angeline, and Wicked Eve might be interested!

ooh I know I need help with my site, but I am dying to see what Angeline comes up with, and for the new Habit to emerge.

Hey, are you insulting my site?

Come on, if you don't like it, please, help me. I really don't know what I am doing, I just figured it out myself and might just start over knowing that I screwed up in so many ways. I didn't know it showed so badly

Wah!

now you are making me cry

lol! Why isn't there a sobbing smilie? We need more variety.


I am kidding about the crying but serious on the help or suggestions for my site. I will probably be updating after the winter holidays die down and would love feedback.

Take care!

~anna

 

[tolyk]

If you need help with the html aspect of your site, there is a wonderful tutorial at www.echoecho.com

If you are meaning layout help, I'm no good at that either, I just manage to create something that looks nice every now and then.

Good luck

 

[Reltne]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

ooh I know I need help with my site, but I am dying to see what Angeline comes up with, and for the new Habit to emerge.

Hey, are you insulting my site?

Come on, if you don't like it, please, help me. I really don't know what I am doing, I just figured it out myself and might just start over knowing that I screwed up in so many ways. I didn't know it showed so badly

Wah!

now you are making me cry

lol! Why isn't there a sobbing smilie? We need more variety.


I am kidding about the crying but serious on the help or suggestions for my site. I will probably be updating after the winter holidays die down and would love feedback.

Take care!

~anna

Now, Now! You know I love you, and probably at least a tenth of the hits on your journal and homepage are mine. (Hey! I'm hitting on Anna!)

But as I told you in the last e-mail, your homepage has a link to your poetry contest that doesn't work. But NEVER FEAR! you are in good company, NONE of Eve's click pages work, and as far as Angie is concerned, I have yet to even see a website!


PS: Does anyone else have a "View Submittions" page? I know it's getting cold and that there are a lot of BDSM fans out there, but. . . really!

 

[Liar]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

like use the word enjambment without thinking twice (damn I don't know what it is and I bet you will have a link right there for me )

I haven't got the foggiest idea what that thang means.

Realy, I'm just like you - write and read stuff on gut feeling alone. I guess there's something tagging along since my days as a junior high kids' drama teacher. To just say "that was good acting" when I felt it was didn't cut it

Practical webpage building is not my fielsd either. I did teach website stuff, but more about servers, databases and membership systems (lite Lit).

For website design and html guru-hood in the poet ranks, go see Lauren. She's da bomb.

Finger condoms?!

#L

 

[champagne1982]

This is a sweet poem about one person's love healing another and building a new partnership, I think. A solid effort.

Love's lost face
is found again.This is a good opening line, but, as noted by Liar, you need to reassociate us with it later in the poem, otherwise, this phrase is unneccessary and fills the verse with empty words.
Crying eyes shining brightly when you use the words shining brightly it usually denotes happiness and light, in this situation, maybe something like "awash with tears" would be more in keeping with the mood.
Come closer to mine.


Tender lips part
yearning This is a prime example of a gerund
n : a noun formed from a verb (such as the `-ing' form of an English verb when used as a noun). From all accounts, too many of these indicates a laziness on your part to find a better word, it also grates on the ear, if read aloud.
for that sweet, soft kiss,
Eternal bliss

Into those eyes
again I stare, Again? When did you stare into them the first time? It's an extra word that serves no purpose and doesn't move the narrative part forward.
vast promises
bury me deep.

Love surrounds me
but I do not struggle
to escape these
loving bonds. Blissed by kisses, buried by promises and bound by love. Your poem is too short to have all this activity. Maybe settling on one image and showing us in detail would make it a more effective piece.

 

[annaswirls]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

Now, Now! You know I love you, and probably at least a tenth of the hits on your journal and homepage are mine. (Hey! I'm hitting on Anna!)

But as I told you in the last e-mail, your homepage has a link to your poetry contest that doesn't work. But NEVER FEAR! you are in good company, NONE of Eve's click pages work, and as far as Angie is concerned, I have yet to even see a website!


PS: Does anyone else have a "View Submittions" page? I know it's getting cold and that there are a lot of BDSM fans out there, but. . . really!

Hey I fixed that link.... You sent me that email? I thought it was someone else... hmm are you in disguise or am I in a state of delerium.

Eve's sight will knock you out.

mine is a babe in the woods. but it is my babe.

I think I want a new hobby. This sex and poetry thing is just not paying out.

and my wrists are starting to hurt.

maybe take up Tai Kwan Do or Ballroom dancing.

 

[annaswirls]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

I haven't got the foggiest idea what that thang means.

Realy, I'm just like you - write and read stuff on gut feeling alone. I guess there's something tagging along since my days as a junior high kids' drama teacher. To just say "that was good acting" when I felt it was didn't cut it

Practical webpage building is not my fielsd either. I did teach website stuff, but more about servers, databases and membership systems (lite Lit).

For website design and html guru-hood in the poet ranks, go see Lauren. She's da bomb.

Finger condoms?!

#L

yeah, finger condoms. They are so cute!

 

[Reltne]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Feedback/Critique/Advice (AKA Help Me! )

Hey I fixed that link....

Eve's sight will knock you out.
. . .

It still doesn't work, and neither do any of Eve's sub-pages. Angeline's don't exist!

 

[annaswirls]

what? damn hold on, I dont believe you lol

 

[annaswirls]

omg!!! how funny. I fixed the other one that did not work, then decided to change my opening page and fucked up again!

okay

I need a tutor

no one ever took me up on the personal secretary position to get my poems organized, I guess I will be on my own with this too,


okay

I am off to fix it

I hate when you're right

 

[annaswirls]

okay fixed it Mister Smartie Pants

what is your URL?

my site is too cumbersome. I am going to trim it down.

diet.


ps note the sig line, if you are gonna fail, fail better.



ps sorry for hijacking this thread!