Father-Son Naming (junior, etc.) Help?

[3113]

I'm sure I could find this on-line, but probably not the answers to all my questions in one place like here

You've got John Smith. He names his son John Smith. So that's John Smith, jr. John Smith, jr. names his son John Smith. Is grandson John Smith already John Smith III or does he have to wait till grandad dies to become that? Is John Smith, jr. John Smith II or does he have to wait till dad dies to become that? And if John Smith, jr. doesn't name a son John Smith...does he remain "jr." and never II?

Why do we refer to MLK, jr. and Sammy Davis jr. as junior rather than II?

Next question: John Smith has John Smith, jr. but junior names his kid Thomas Smith. Thomas Smith has a kid and names him after dad: John Smith. Is Thomas' kid (John Smith, jr.'s grandkid) John Smith III? (I know the numbering isn't sequential with royalty or Popes but that seems more a matter of keeping historical records straight, not quite the same as a member of the family being able to say, "I'm John Smith III").

Last question: John Jacob Smith names his son John Jacob Smith (jr.). But John Jacob Smith, jr. names his son John Thomas Smith. Is John Thomas Smith still "John Smith III" or does the alteration of middle name exclude him from taking on that number?

Any info to clear these all up much appreciated!

 

[PennLady]

In my family we had many Johns. I suppose II and Jr may be interchangeable, so that may be a choice.

Here's the way it worked in my family:

My great-grandfather was John Smith. His son, my grandfather, was John Smith, Jr., and that made his father John Smith, Sr. When JS Sr. died, my grandfather became John Smith until my uncle was born.

Then my grandfather was John Smith, Sr., and my uncle was John Smith, Jr. When my uncle had a son, he was John Smith, III.

After my grandfather died, they all moved back a degree, if you will. My uncle is now John Smith, Sr., and my cousin John Smith, Jr. If my cousin does not have a son, or does not name his son John Smith, my cousin will remain "Jr." until his father dies, and then he will just be John Smith.

I have never, or rarely I guess, seen "II" in cases like this. Only with royalty -- Queen Elizabeth II, e.g.

I realize that's not a final authority, but it is a real world example, and the one I've always encountered.

 

[3113]

My great-grandfather was John Smith. His son, my grandfather, was John Smith, Jr., and that made his father John Smith, Sr. When JS Sr. died, my grandfather became John Smith until my uncle was born.

Oh, geeze. That's another twist I hadn't considered. Nephews and grandnephews.... Oy!

 

[Saxon_Hart]

OK here's how it works. Archibald Vernon Barasol has a son and names him Archibald Vernon Barasol Jr. Years pass and Jr has a son and names him Archibald Vernon Barasol III. Jr, stays Jr,
Now. Archibald Vernon Barasol as a son or daughter and decides not to hang his moniker on the kid. Later the kid has a son and out of love for daddy names the kid Archibald Vernon Barasol II.
Jr is always next in line, but a shared name with a grandfather makes the kid the 2nd.

 

[PennLady]

Oh, geeze. That's another twist I hadn't considered. Nephews and grandnephews.... Oy!

Well those aren't really a twist; by "my uncle," I meant "his son," which is what I should have said. It's just one line of the family. (A slightly interesting thing here is that although my dad was both the firstborn and the first son, he was not the junior.) Don't forget, my cousin is also my grandfather's grandchild, so it's a direct line from him, as opposed to a sort of sideways line for me.

Even if the son is not an only child, he will probably be the only one named after the father, so it's not that big a deal. I mean, unless you're George Foreman you probably won't name any more of your children after yourself.

 

[PennLady]

OK here's how it works. Archibald Vernon Barasol has a son and names him Archibald Vernon Barasol Jr. Years pass and Jr has a son and names him Archibald Vernon Barasol III. Jr, stays Jr,
Now. Archibald Vernon Barasol as a son or daughter and decides not to hang his moniker on the kid. Later the kid has a son and out of love for daddy names the kid Archibald Vernon Barasol II.
Jr is always next in line, but a shared name with a grandfather makes the kid the 2nd.

Thanks. I wondered if something like that might apply.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Rank is by order of birth.

Henry Ford II was the grandson of old Henry Ford. If Henry had a son named Henry, the son would be Henry the Junior regardless of his birth order, Junior identifies the lineal descendent. I II III IV etc identify birth order. Remember, Junior isn't a title, so theres no comma between Junior and the name.

The label doesn't change with death.

I also do cousin relationships.

200 years ago we recycled names when children died. My ancestor, Venables Bond, MD, was the second Venables child in his family, the first Venables died before #2 was born.

 

[SandraMustard]

Along comes a man who thumbs his nose at conventions; meet George Foreman - all of them.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Along comes a man who thumbs his nose at conventions; meet George Foreman - all of them.

Don't forget Larry and his brother Daryl, and his other brother, Daryl.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yyB06HvAjI

 

[MSTarot]

I know a guy who is a third. He goes by Tray.

Also problems can come up by several family members having the same name. i knew a guy, his son, and grandson. All three had some sort of injury, (hip surgery, car wreck, football-torn muscle) the pharmacist saw three sets of pain meds, coming from three different doctors, to the same name.

He called in to somewhere and they all had their meds canceled. Took quite a bit to get it fixed, by which time the pills they had been taking were gone.

It's simple things like that when used in a story that can help pull off that same name different gen character story.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

I know a guy who is a third. He goes by Tray.

Also problems can come up by several family members having the same name. i knew a guy, his son, and grandson. All three had some sort of injury, (hip surgery, car wreck, football-torn muscle) the pharmacist saw three sets of pain meds, coming from three different doctors, to the same name.

He called in to somewhere and they all had their meds canceled. Took quite a bit to get it fixed, by which time the pills they had been taking were gone.

It's simple things like that when used in a story that can help pull off that same name different gen character story.

My family takes it to the extreme. My great grandmother was Cornelia James Grant Johnson but called Jemmy Johnson. Her daughter was Jimmie Grant Johnson. My father was James Ward Johnson. I'm James Benjamin Johnson. And my grandson is a James.

 

[Weird Harold]

Oh, geeze. That's another twist I hadn't considered. Nephews and grandnephews.... Oy!

A lot depends on how the parents count Jr. and numbers.

For all numeric/relational purposes, the whole name must be the same; different middle names (or even different spelling) generally serve the same purpose as appending Jr, Sr, or a number.

Junior is generally reserved for a father/son relationship. Senior is generally assigned to the original holder of the name and only the original holder.

A nephew named for John Jacob Smith Sr would be John Jacob Smith II. The nephew's younger brother or cousin would be John Jacob Smith III, in order of birth -- except for John Jacob Smith's son, John Jacob Smith Junior, no matter how many cousins might precede him.

John Smith Sr's second son could be either John Jacob Smith III, IV or V, depending on family traditions. That might well result in two "John Jacob Smith III" living at the same time.

To further bend your mind, there is no legal bar (in the US) to naming a child "Louis Bourbon XVI" (regardless of gender.)

 

[3113]

OK here's how it works. Archibald Vernon Barasol has a son and names him Archibald Vernon Barasol Jr. Years pass and Jr has a son and names him Archibald Vernon Barasol III. Jr, stays Jr,
Now. Archibald Vernon Barasol as a son or daughter and decides not to hang his moniker on the kid. Later the kid has a son and out of love for daddy names the kid Archibald Vernon Barasol II.
Jr is always next in line, but a shared name with a grandfather makes the kid the 2nd.

Um...so if Archibald Vernon Barasol II has a kid and names hims AVB then he's AVB jr.?

 

[Weird Harold]

Um...so if Archibald Vernon Barasol II has a kid and names hims AVB then he's AVB jr.?

Could be, but probably would be AVB III

 

[sr71plt]

Um...so if Archibald Vernon Barasol II has a kid and names hims AVB then he's AVB jr.?

My guess is that the kid is changing his name as soon as he can.

 

[WifeWatchman]

I have a cousin who is a "II" as in "Jack Jones II". Usually a son is "Jr.", but a nephew named directly after an uncle, or a grandson after a grandfather may be a "II" instead of "Jr."
Someone who is a "II" and has a son of the same name, the son would be "III", not "Jr." Likewise, if a "Jr." names his son after him, it would be "III".

 

[Tyro999]

As an individual who had Ogden Johnson III stuck on him at birth [Grandfather was the first OJ, Father was OJ Jr, and I was OJ Jr's first borne] I have watched this thread with interest and not a small amount of amusement.

[The III has been less a PITA than the fact that I have no middle name/initial. Drove the military crazy - I had to be Ogden [NMI] Johnson III in all official documents]

[I had a birth nickname of "Jeep", OJ Jr, "Bud" was in the Army, commanding an AAA, battery, knew I would need a nickname and always maintained that it was a choice among Jeep or Bofers or Oerlikon - the latter two being AAA cannons.]

 

[GorgeousGeekGirl]

Senior and Junior are specifically a father/son relationship. The reason it isn't a mother/daughter relationship is because when the daughter gets married, her name will change so the term jr will no longer apply. There have been occasional exceptions; actress Joan Crawford named her daughter Joan Crawford jr.

Senior and junior can be either nicknames, legally acceptable name modification, or legal birth name. With nicknames, it is just that, and as with all nicknames, there aren't any rules per se. My uncle and cousin are sr and jr even though they have different middle names. The legally acceptable name modification is similar to when a woman gets married; a man can assume the title sr or junior without a court hearing, and showing the child's birth certificate is sufficient documentation for government agencies to justify the assumption of the title(s) sr or junior. Jr can also be a legal name, entered on the birth certificate or being granted at a court hearing. The intention of the titles sr and jr is to differentiate between father and son who share the same name.

George Foreman is another example of exception to the rules.

Roman numeral titles, III, IV, etc, are to identify descendants or later inheritors of a title. John smith has a son, Robert smith, who has a son, John smith II. Because the name skipped a generation, II is used instead of jr. In my family, great grandpa was sr, grandpa was jr, dad is III, bro is IV, nephew is V, and I'm quite sure my mom is already programming 2 year old nephew that his son will be VI. The Roman numerals can also show inheritance/assumption of a title with or without family relations, such as in the case of kings or popes. Queen Elizabeth II is not descended from Liz I, and is at most a distant relation, and pope John Paul I was no relation at all to John Paul II.

In cases of family branching, such as with a man having multiple sons, each branch is theoretically numbered independently of other branches, but that certainly won't stop inflated and offended egos from bickering at family reunions as to which kid deserves seniority in the numbering. At that point, drink heavily and turn on loud music until the egos finally shout themselves hoarse.

 

[slyc_willie]

[I had a birth nickname of "Jeep", OJ Jr, "Bud" was in the Army, commanding an AAA, battery, knew I would need a nickname and always maintained that it was a choice among Jeep or Bofers or Oerlikon - the latter two being AAA cannons.]

A friend of mine was a "III" and everyone called him "Trip," as in triple (or triplicate, whatever). He liked the nickname because it gave him something of a separate identity other than "the third guy to have this name."

Another guy I new when I worked in a restaurant around here was the fourth in his family (great-grandfather, grandfather, father, and him) to have the same name. He went by the nickname "Quattro." Personally, I thought that was pretty cool.

 

[3113]

In my family, great grandpa was sr, grandpa was jr, dad is III, bro is IV, nephew is V, and I'm quite sure my mom is already programming 2 year old nephew that his son will be VI.

This is what confuses me. Why wasn't grandpa II? Why wasn't grandpa moved up to sr. and dad to jr.? When are numbers used rather than jr. and sr.?

 

[Weird Harold]

Why wasn't grandpa II?

Because he was named for Great-Grandpa in direct line of descent. That makes him "Junior," not "Deuce" (II).

 

[robertreams]

The person doing the naming decides, Jr. or II, etc. I could name myself John Smith Jr. even if there never was a John Smith. Yo are making it too difficult. The namer decides.

 

[PennLady]

The person doing the naming decides, Jr. or II, etc. I could name myself John Smith Jr. even if there never was a John Smith. Yo are making it too difficult. The namer decides.

The namer may decide, but you don't usually find someone with Jr after their name unless there is a senior namesake. This is one of those things that does have a common usage, and that's how most people are familiar with it.

 

[sr71plt]

The person doing the naming decides, Jr. or II, etc. I could name myself John Smith Jr. even if there never was a John Smith.

But apparently only if some judge didn't think there were too many John Smiths and certified your name as Martin instead.

 

[Neonurotic]

Jr is listed on a birth certificate as part of the child's name and wouldn't change to Sr if senior died unless Jr had an official name change.