Family Law Advice

[S-Des]

I need help. We have tons of people from varying backgrounds (men and women) who've gone through the court system and know how difficult, unfair and expensive it can be. Someone close to me is going through an incredibly difficult time and needs advice. She has custody, but is being threatened by an ex who is planning on remarrying (to a real peach ), and is already making veiled threats (their custody agreement isn't even finalized). He is a terrible father (not giving necessary medication, refusing to pay for things he agreed to, lying about his salary to the court, being abusive towards her, alternately threatening the kids then spoiling them to keep them quiet, etc...).

This is not a plea for civility, the situation is beyond that. She needs to protect herself and do it now, before it's too late (for her sake and the kids). The ex's new girlfriend is abusive towards her own kids, and has a history of drug and alcohol abuse. This might be able to be used to establish a danger to the kids, but a lot of it will come down to she said/she said.

The biggest problem is lawyer's fees. My "friend" was a stay at home mom and has very little money. In Florida, there is evidently a law that a person isn't entitled to a public defender if their spouses income exceeds the limit (despite the fact that they're divorcing and she isn't entitled to alimony if they weren't married for the necessary length of time). It's an ass-backwards law and I'm astounded by the idiocy, but I've been around long enough to know you have to play the hand you're dealt. If anyone has real advice (not generalizations, but specific suggestions she can try), please leave a comment or PM me. Obviously knowing a good attorney in the state she could talk to would be ideal, but I'll settle for any practical advice.

Please take my word for it, this is a situation that needs to be addressed very quickly. There is no hope to deal with the person, if I detailed all of the astonishing things he's said and done, I don't know if I'd be believed. The woman is a wonderful, loving mom who has managed to raise two kids despite him, not with his help. The fact that he's thumbing his nose at her now, exposing the kids to this whack-job (who isn't even divorced yet), and threatening that the kids will have a "real mom" soon enough is enough to cause me great concern for what will happen next. He makes a very good living (which as I've said, he lied about to the court), and can afford very expensive attorneys if she doesn't nail his ass to the wall now.

 

[yevkassem72]

Hugs. I have no children, but am going through a very bitter divorce myself.

 

[slyc_willie]

Does the new gf in the soon-to-be ex-hubby's life have a criminal record? If so, your friend should have her lawyer get a copy. It could be very pertinent if a new marriage license has already been applied for. That would establish an imminent danger toward the children.

Social Services would definately want to know about it . . . .

 

[Zeb_Carter]

I need help. We have tons of people from varying backgrounds (men and women) who've gone through the court system and know how difficult, unfair and expensive it can be. Someone close to me is going through an incredibly difficult time and needs advice. She has custody, but is being threatened by an ex who is planning on remarrying (to a real peach ), and is already making veiled threats (their custody agreement isn't even finalized). He is a terrible father (not giving necessary medication, refusing to pay for things he agreed to, lying about his salary to the court, being abusive towards her, alternately threatening the kids then spoiling them to keep them quiet, etc...).

This is not a plea for civility, the situation is beyond that. She needs to protect herself and do it now, before it's too late (for her sake and the kids). The ex's new girlfriend is abusive towards her own kids, and has a history of drug and alcohol abuse. This might be able to be used to establish a danger to the kids, but a lot of it will come down to she said/she said.

The biggest problem is lawyer's fees. My "friend" was a stay at home mom and has very little money. In Florida, there is evidently a law that a person isn't entitled to a public defender if their spouses income exceeds the limit (despite the fact that they're divorcing and she isn't entitled to alimony if they weren't married for the necessary length of time). It's an ass-backwards law and I'm astounded by the idiocy, but I've been around long enough to know you have to play the hand you're dealt. If anyone has real advice (not generalizations, but specific suggestions she can try), please leave a comment or PM me. Obviously knowing a good attorney in the state she could talk to would be ideal, but I'll settle for any practical advice.

Please take my word for it, this is a situation that needs to be addressed very quickly. There is no hope to deal with the person, if I detailed all of the astonishing things he's said and done, I don't know if I'd be believed. The woman is a wonderful, loving mom who has managed to raise two kids despite him, not with his help. The fact that he's thumbing his nose at her now, exposing the kids to this whack-job (who isn't even divorced yet), and threatening that the kids will have a "real mom" soon enough is enough to cause me great concern for what will happen next. He makes a very good living (which as I've said, he lied about to the court), and can afford very expensive attorneys if she doesn't nail his ass to the wall now.

Same thing has happened to someone close to me too.

The only advice I can give is to stay ahead of the game, document everything that is said and done. Get video and/or audio of everything he says, if possible.

Fortunately, most courts see the mother as the one the children should be with even if dad has remarried, even if the mother is abusive and/or negletful.

In most states the Dad can only expect to get custody if the mother is caught in the act, per say, of abusing the children...if Family Services is called and they make a determination that the children are in danger with the mother then, maybe the father will get custody, maybe.

So whatever he is threatening may just be bluff too see if she will follow through on her side or back down. But just to be sure get her attoney to see if he can get the thing finalized as soon as possible.

 

[S-Des]

Does the new gf in the soon-to-be ex-hubby's life have a criminal record? If so, your friend should have her lawyer get a copy. It could be very pertinent if a new marriage license has already been applied for. That would establish an imminent danger toward the children.

Social Services would definately want to know about it . . . .

She is working on that as we speak. Every state has different laws about the situation, which is why I'm asking. The lawyer is pretty much an impossibility at this point. She's trying to find a lawyer who will give a free consultation so she can run some things by him/her for advice. She is broke (more or less) and the ex isn't paying for things like medical bills, which keeps her broke. She recently lost her job because the kids got sick and he refused to help (she missed too many days at work, so was let go). There simply isn't money to hire a lawyer (even though it could make a very large difference in the amount she recieves).

The situation is completely fubar'd, and I'm out of ideas to help. The laws are completely different here, so I don't know what she can do.

 

[The_Fool]

Might do some checking around for agencies that offer free or reduced rate legal services. I was thinking there was one of those here in Kansas.

 

[cloudy]

Might do some checking around for agencies that offer free or reduced rate legal services. I was thinking there was one of those here in Kansas.

Yep.

Also, who filed? If he was the one that filed, some lawyers will take the case, and put in the papers that HE pays lawyers fees/court costs.

Have her or her lawyer request a hair drug test, not a urine test. Urine tests are only good for about thirty days back. A hair test (depending on the length of the person's hair, of course) can check back YEARS.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

One quick thought -

The problem with the minor criminal violations (including pot) and non-physical abuse is that the judges and family services stuff see a good deal of really horrific stuff, so their bar is really high as far as this sort of thing affecting their determinations. I'm not saying don't gather what you can conveniently, but don't put a lot of energy or hope into the effort.

 

[Selena_Kitt]

Yep.

Also, who filed? If he was the one that filed, some lawyers will take the case, and put in the papers that HE pays lawyers fees/court costs.

Have her or her lawyer request a hair drug test, not a urine test. Urine tests are only good for about thirty days back. A hair test (depending on the length of the person's hair, of course) can check back YEARS.

And a hair test is harder to get someone to drop for you! They take the hair right off your head...

I hate to say call in Social Services... on *anyone*... sigh. But I understand fighting fire with fire. But I want you to be aware that calling in social services will ALSO bring to light ANYTHING the mother does (your "friend.") Meaning, if she has sex toys, or naked pictures, or anything that could even be perceived as suspicious, she needs to GET RID OF IT before she calls. Because often calling social services can backfire on a parent, esp if the social worker gets the idea that it's a "revenge" kind of call.

I would suggest she get a free consulation with a lawyer asap. And look into low/reduced cost lawyers in her area. There have to be resources like that, considering the law in the state... have to be... *crossing fingers*

 

[Pure]

//She has custody, but is being threatened by an ex who is planning on remarrying (to a real peach ), and is already making veiled threats (their custody agreement isn't even finalized). He is a terrible father (not giving necessary medication, refusing to pay for things he agreed to, lying about his salary to the court, being abusive towards her, alternately threatening the kids then spoiling them to keep them quiet, etc...).

This is not a plea for civility, the situation is beyond that. She needs to protect herself and do it now, before it's too late (for her sake and the kids). The ex's new girlfriend is abusive towards her own kids, and has a history of drug and alcohol abuse. This might be able to be used to establish a danger to the kids, but a lot of it will come down to she said/she said.//

If she (F) has anything solid about abuse of the other woman's (OW's) kids, why not speak to child protection or whatever they call it in FL. In most cases if there is a reasonable suspicion there is a duty to report. Further, we are talking about 'protection', not prosecution, so the standard of proof is lower; the 'word' of the right people may suffice (indeed it does, often, in court; 'he said; she said' is NOT always a stalemate; judges decide who to believe.)

The OW's future contacts with your friend's kids might also be raised as an issue, i.e. "i think the kids need protection from her." That would complicate the father's efforts for custody, and again the state should do the investigating.

If the father's treatment of his own kids amounts to abuse, same thing.

The child protection people work 'for free' as it were, being paid by taxpayers.

I might add that liars do, in the long run, often get caught--i.e., detected by the family court judges. So your friend should document all the slips, lies, false promises etc.

She might talk to the Law Society of FL or whatever it's called and see if there is any way to get representation in this family court matter. (It can be tricky, since some areas only feel obligated to provide counsel for criminal matters.) Other than that she would have to get a mortgage or come to an arrangement with a lawyer for time payments spread out, say, over the next five years.

 

[Guest]

You'd think that if She could document the lie about salary, then perjury might come into play. Or at the very least, the court would be sufficiently ticked off at Him to have a valid bias against him.

 

[S-Des]

Yep.

Also, who filed? If he was the one that filed, some lawyers will take the case, and put in the papers that HE pays lawyers fees/court costs.

Have her or her lawyer request a hair drug test, not a urine test. Urine tests are only good for about thirty days back. A hair test (depending on the length of the person's hair, of course) can check back YEARS.

He filed, and it's in the paperwork that if he takes her back he pays the fees (which I hope is ironclad). The thing I'm hoping is for her to get everything done before the completion of the process and cover all her bases (which is coming very soon). I don't think you can request a drug test on someone else without going to court and fighting about it first, but I'm not a lawyer. That's the biggest problem here...he's got her maneuvered into a place where she literally doesn't have the money to pay for a lawyer's visit to get advice. I've been on her to go through the yellow pages and find lawyers who do 1 hour consultations for free so they can let her know if there is anything else she has to do to protect herself. My goal is to have things so overwhelming on her side, that the ex has no option but to go along with her. My friendship aside, she really does make all the important decisions for the kids. I would fear for their safety if he did so (not even abuse, just utter neglect).

 

[S-Des]

I hate to say call in Social Services... on *anyone*... sigh. But I understand fighting fire with fire. But I want you to be aware that calling in social services will ALSO bring to light ANYTHING the mother does (your "friend.") Meaning, if she has sex toys, or naked pictures, or anything that could even be perceived as suspicious, she needs to GET RID OF IT before she calls. Because often calling social services can backfire on a parent, esp if the social worker gets the idea that it's a "revenge" kind of call.

You have hit the nail right on the head. I have advised her (telling her over and over that it was, "her decision") that she should stay away from that until all other options have been exhausted. I know a case where the custodial parent lost custody because her claims of abuse weren't believed. Additionally, it's hard to prove someone is a crappy parent (other than documenting things they do, which can be disputed in court). It's so easy for someone to lie and act like a little angel for a while.

I would suggest she get a free consulation with a lawyer asap. And look into low/reduced cost lawyers in her area. There have to be resources like that, considering the law in the state... have to be... *crossing fingers*

That was really my hope with this thread. To find out anything that could be useful about inexpensive lawyers or loopholes she could find. I'm just shocked that someone with almost no income, who has lost their job could be turned down for a public defender because their adversary in the divorce makes a bunch of money (that she isn't entitled to). It's not that way here. Anyone is entitled to a public defender if they say they can't afford a lawyer. They're not the best usually, but they do know the law.

She does have the power in this situation, I know that. The thing is to make sure all the I's are dotted before the final paperwork is signed. She has tax returns for the last 5 or 6 years, proving his annual income (which hasn't changed), so she should be ready. I am just worried that there is something else she might need that should be done before the court date. Judges are notoriously finicky. If he/she decides that my friend doesn't have enough evidence, he/she could order the case closed, which would mean she'd have to pay for lawyer's costs to reopen it.

Money isn't really the largest issue in the situation. Once she gets a new job, she'll be fine. The problem is establishing a pattern of behavior with the ex and his new girl so if something happens, DCF can swoop down immediately instead of having to start a brand new investigation. If the ex understands what a short leash he's on, I'm hoping he'll make sure things don't get messed up. This weekend alone, there three very scary incidents with the kids. This was their first weekend with the new girlfriend and it was a mess on all fronts.

 

[sophia jane]

A couple of things on the financial spectrum:

(and note that this doesn't relate specifically to the divorce)- she should apply for every form of aid possible. Food stamps and Medicaid for the kids particularly. Many states have an emergency process for when the cutodial parents loses their job, so that aid can begin immediately. Yes, it's very embarassing to have to go through that kind of crap but it'll help immensely with some financial stress relief. If she has no income and is only able to claim her child support as income, she ought to get a nice amount for food stamps and full insurance coverage for the kids. AND- Medicaid asks if you have unpaid medical bills so if she still has lingering bills, they might be covered by Medicaid. Definitely a really good thing to check into.

Also check into organizations like legal aid. There are resources out there for women with kids; and there are definitely free or low cost organization out there to protect women from this kind of thing. Another thing, that may have already been done, is just to start calling attorneys in the phone book and telling the basics of the story and see if they're willing to help using a payment plan or if they know someone who will. It seems impossible, but there are good lawyers out there; it might just take some diligence to find one.

As for documentation, record everything. If she can somehow tape conversations with the ex, that would help. Any threats would be great. If the kids ever complain about abuse, whether emotional or physical, get a witness and get it on record. Does the kids' school know of these problems? Have they ever had issue with the ex? Witnessed anything? Any person(s) who may have seen or heard the ex or his new woman being shitty can be a potential witness for her to prove that it's an unfit environment. In regards to his lies about financial records, is there any proof of that? Like in their joint financial records? Bank statements? Tax forms? Any proof she can come up with will help her case, but will also help encourage an attorney to take the case, particularly if recouping some of the costs from the ex is a possibility.
Additionally, his refusal to pay child support or any other thing that he's agreed to pay ought to be documented. If it's in writing that he's supposed to pay the medical bills, but he didn't, then she can take that to court as well.
My last tip would be to call the courthouse and find out what the procedures are for this kind of thing and if they know of any resources for her to use.

 

[S-Des]

A couple of things on the financial spectrum:

(and note that this doesn't relate specifically to the divorce)- she should apply for every form of aid possible. Food stamps and Medicaid for the kids particularly. Many states have an emergency process for when the cutodial parents loses their job, so that aid can begin immediately. Yes, it's very embarassing to have to go through that kind of crap but it'll help immensely with some financial stress relief. If she has no income and is only able to claim her child support as income, she ought to get a nice amount for food stamps and full insurance coverage for the kids. AND- Medicaid asks if you have unpaid medical bills so if she still has lingering bills, they might be covered by Medicaid. Definitely a really good thing to check into.

Also check into organizations like legal aid. There are resources out there for women with kids; and there are definitely free or low cost organization out there to protect women from this kind of thing. Another thing, that may have already been done, is just to start calling attorneys in the phone book and telling the basics of the story and see if they're willing to help using a payment plan or if they know someone who will. It seems impossible, but there are good lawyers out there; it might just take some diligence to find one.

As for documentation, record everything. If she can somehow tape conversations with the ex, that would help. Any threats would be great. If the kids ever complain about abuse, whether emotional or physical, get a witness and get it on record. Does the kids' school know of these problems? Have they ever had issue with the ex? Witnessed anything? Any person(s) who may have seen or heard the ex or his new woman being shitty can be a potential witness for her to prove that it's an unfit environment. In regards to his lies about financial records, is there any proof of that? Like in their joint financial records? Bank statements? Tax forms? Any proof she can come up with will help her case, but will also help encourage an attorney to take the case, particularly if recouping some of the costs from the ex is a possibility.
Additionally, his refusal to pay child support or any other thing that he's agreed to pay ought to be documented. If it's in writing that he's supposed to pay the medical bills, but he didn't, then she can take that to court as well.
My last tip would be to call the courthouse and find out what the procedures are for this kind of thing and if they know of any resources for her to use.

I will tell her immediately. I didn't know that about the food stamps/medicaid...it would be really helpful. It's so wrong, but by him not paying for medication (he'll have to eventually, but he's dragging his feet), she has to pay for everything, which is why she's broke. The kids have a couple of medical problems so the bills are substantial.

The court is a washout. She already filed for legal aid and was turned down. Calling a lawyer to ask about a payment plan is a good idea though. I've never heard of that, but I'll bet there are lawyers who do it (not everyone can afford the $5000 retainer up front). Her youngest told her that the new girlfriend "is really mean" to her youngest child (a toddler), saying she spanks him all the time. I told my friend to immediately get him into a couselor so he could relate that to an authority. That worries me a lot. As messed up as the guy is, the girlfriend is even worse. A couple of the stories I've heard are utterly shocking. Like I said, I want her to establish a pattern of behavior, so the first time there's a problem, she can get the kids the hell out of there.

Thanks.

 

[Zeb_Carter]

One other thing....

In most states the non-custodial parent can not have the initial custody order changed, once it has been determined by the court (signed off by the Judge), for a period of two years.

There is usually a clause about emminate danger but that usually means someone got arrest for beating on the child and any case of he said/she said is frowned upon by the court.

Just thought I'd let you know. Good luck.

 

[S-Des]

One other thing....

In most states the non-custodial parent can not have the initial custody order changed, once it has been determined by the court (signed off by the Judge), for a period of two years.

There is usually a clause about emminate danger but that usually means someone got arrest for beating on the child and any case of he said/she said is frowned upon by the court.

Just thought I'd let you know. Good luck.

Thanks Zeb. I knew about that, but it's a good point. Like I said, although I'm worried about him messing with her by using the court, I'm more concerned with her not getting screwed around in other ways (he already is in violation of a number of the points they agreed to, but some of the wording in the agreement is vague). I know firsthand what it's like to have an ex use the soft points of an agreement to screw you over, but in her case the well-being of the kids is honestly a question. She's going lawyer hunting tomorrow, so I'm hopeful that she can at least get someone to look at the agreement and make suggestions before it's finalized.

 

[jakebarnes06]

I'm a family law attorney with twenty years experience. Sorry, wrong state so I can't help your friend. Here's a few observations that may help.

First, the husband's statement that he will file for custody upon his remarriage sounds like nothing more than a threat designed to get your friend to do something stupid. In my experience, the party who attempts to create action by lies and threats, usually loses. That said, she should not complain about the future step-mother's conduct unless she has conclusive proof of that conduct. The step-mother will simply deny the conduct and with no proof, your friend will be branded as the troublemaker. Further, your friend should not withhold the children from him during his visitation times.

Second, the husband's income should be no problem. As a party to her divorce, I'm certain she has subpoena power. Simply obtain a subpoena from the court and send it to his employer requesting all income for whatever year is in question. Keep in mind, if he is in sales, his past income (tax returns) may not be representative of his current income. Further, if he has voluntarily reduced his income, many states will impute prior, higher, earnings to him.

Third, has she asked the court to order the husband to pay her attorney fees? In my state, the court would issue such an order under the circumstances you've described.

Fourth, if her agreement is not written in concise language and contains loopholes, she should not sign it.

Fifth, in most states, in order to change a custody agreement, it is necessary to show a substantial change of circumstances. His remarriage is unlikely to meet that standard because it was known to and anticipated by each of the parties at the time they made their agreement awarding her custody.

Sixth, many legal aide organizations use spousal abuse as a criteria for taking on a client. Was she abused? If so, did she make that fact known when she applied for an attorney? If not, perhaps she should reapply with all the facts.

Seventh, if the husband is not making court ordered medical payments, your friend should apply to the local friend of the court for relief. Sometimes they're helpful and sometimes they're too overworked to be of much use. Maybe it will work for her. When she applies, she should provide the FOC with copies of all the medical bills she has received and evidence of the payments she has made. If she hasn't kept those, then she should begin keeping them.

Eighth, there is an abundance of law from the State of Florida on the internet. If your friend is incapable of finding it, then perhaps you can help. She should become acquainted with both substantative law and the court's procedures. Many county courts actually have their own website that contains extremely helpful information. If you have difficulty finding law, you might try googleing (or whatever you use) individual family law attorneys' websites. Frequently they will contain links to family law websites.

Divorces are difficult. I wish your friend the best.

 

[Roxanne Appleby]

One minor addendum to all the good stuff here - SJ said, "If the kids ever complain about abuse, whether emotional or physical, get a witness and get it on record."

Key phrase there, "get a witness." In other words, do not grill the kids and make them partners in your efforts to demonize dipshit. Courts have this funny idea that the kids should have a relationship with dipshit, and they look down on attempts by the other partner to poison that. (Actually, the problem is, not being there they can't tell for sure which person is the dipshit, so their protocols are designed to cut babies in half as a work-around.)

 

[S-Des]

I'm a family law attorney with twenty years experience. Sorry, wrong state so I can't help your friend. Here's a few observations that may help.

Thank you very much. The advice is helpful, there are a couple of things we hadn't thought of.

 

[wishfulthinking]

Holy moly, either US familys laws are skewered, or your perception of family law is, or both! I mean that in the nicest possible way.

If you lived in Oz, I'd say the following:

* parents have duties, children have rights - children have the right to know and have a meaningful relationship with both parents if it is in their best interests

* saying he has a drug problem does you no favours unless you can prove it -criminal history, school records saying he dropped the kid off intoxicated etc. Depending on the type of drug, you won't catch the hard stuff unless he does a random test, and has taken drugs in the past 24 hours. Pot's a better deal, because you can pick it up months down the track. But, if he (and you) took drugs while you were together, it may be in good faith that you ask for an order that both of you do drug testing.

* it sounds like a threat. Him remarrying isn't enough to satisfy a "material change in circumstances" to warrant a change in parenting orders.

* sometimes when all things are equal between parents to care and protect their children, the only thing that gets one parent over the line in terms of 'custody' is the willingness to promote the child's relationship with the other parent.

* domestic violence between parents only really has weight if the child was exposed to it. Otherwise, orders can be put in place to minimise conflict between parents - changeover at a neutral place (eg petrol station with cameras)

* parent's have a duty to provide financially for their children - one of our aspects of best interests - but is by no means the most important one. Unforunately, it is not the case of "don't pay child support, don't get to see your kid."

* keep a parenting diary - write down what you talked about, if anyone was late for changeover etc. Limit your conversations to your kids. This helps a couple of ways, namely - if he ever tries to get a domestic violence order against you and naming his new partner in it as a person to be protected, you can look at your diary and say what happened that day, and photocopy it to give to court. not the be all and end all, but if it is a case of he said she said, it may give you the leverage on credibility.

* tape recording is only good generally if he is threatening you or the kids. Otherwise, it may support a case you are alienating the kid from him, or you are neurotic.

* don't expose the kid to conflict between you

* don't bag the father out to the kid, even if he does

* encourage the kid to spend time with the father -even if you or the kid doesn't want to - kids do what they are told, and courts over here view it as kids tell parents what they want to hear.

* If he is talking to the kid about legal proceedings, send him a non-confrontational letter saying your concerns. sign it, date it, and keep a copy. you may need an order that neither parent discuss court proceedings with the kid.

* bend over backwards in the effort to appear reasonable to the court - if the kid is sick, let him know as soon as possible, get a doctor's certificate, and tell him you will make up the time (when and where) and write to him telling him this, enclosing a copy of hte medical certificate, keep a copy and thereby starting your paper trial to nailing his arse.

* if the kid is confused and seeing a school counsellor, subpoena the school records or get them to write a report. But don't take the kid off to a specialist if the matter is in court without either getting the father's written consent (ie write him a letter asking him to reply) or raising it with the court to get their permission or direction.

This stuff may not apply where she lives, though. Good luck.