Fake it until you make it?

[AngelicAssassin]

And you never get away with it again. ;->

Newp, you "trap" them with the real thing the next time betting the exact same way and watch their face crumple.

Everything is presentation ... right up to the point you get to the meat of the matter.

So, on the scale of rare to well done?

 

[bridgeburner]

Newp, you "trap" them with the real thing the next time betting the exact same way and watch their face crumple.

Ah, but the difference is the next time you have the goods. Certainly there are those who always fall for the lie no matter how many times. Depending on the person it's either pitiful or oddly humbling. When you've truly blown your credentials, however, you're better off moving on to new marks.

Think Valmont could really have won back de Tourvel as completely as he held her before he betrayed her?

So, on the scale of rare to well done?

Not sure exactly what you're asking so I'll take it at face value and answer bloody.

-B

 

[AngelicAssassin]

... Depending on the person it's either pitiful or oddly humbling. When you've truly blown your credentials, however, you're better off moving on to new marks.

Depends on the mark. Some like humiliation, and therein lies yet another layer; faking faking. How do you like peeling onions?

Think Valmont could really have won back de Tourvel as completely as he held her before he betrayed her?

Ooo ... nice question. Let me counter with if he did, after she put him through Hell, would she ever doubt him again? Would he ever think much less act on a betrayl?

Not sure exactly what you're asking so I'll take it at face value and answer bloody.

-B

i prefer my steak medium well at the very least. i only eat one thing bloody on presentation. i've stated my proclivity on getting things bloody in other ways.

 

[bridgeburner]

Depends on the mark. Some like humiliation, and therein lies yet another layer; faking faking. How do you like peeling onions?

We're talking about two different things here --- I'm speaking about this as it pertains to relationships and interactions outside a D/s context. Within one, the rules are different because presumably the bottom expects and desires these kinds of games. That gives one a lot more leeway for the seeming appearance of abuse of trust.

Ooo ... nice question. Let me counter with if he did, after she put him through Hell, would she ever doubt him again? Would he ever think much less act on a betrayl?

I don't think he could, though. She might take him back and agree to be with him and trust him in many ways, but he destroyed that part of her that was fearless. He would never be able to get back her unblemished trust because he killed not only her faith in him but her faith in herself as well. You can't unring that bell.

i prefer my steak medium well at the very least. i only eat one thing bloody on presentation. i've stated my proclivity on getting things bloody in other ways.

So you have. ;->

 

[AngelicAssassin]

We're talking about two different things here --- I'm speaking about this as it pertains to relationships and interactions outside a D/s context.

Wait a second, what forum is this again?

... but he destroyed that part of her that was fearless. He would never be able to get back her unblemished trust because he killed not only her faith in him but her faith in herself as well. You can't unring that bell.

Your pragmatism is showing again. i like to think nothing is cast in stone. Despicable, yes, but i believe most could see his casting her away a charade. i don't believe in a one way trip for anything. Worse case, turn it around and drive in reverse.

 

[bridgeburner]

Wait a second, what forum is this again?

Ah, but that's exactly why I pointed it out. I'm not in a position to do anything more than guess about what might pass muster in a D/s relationship. I came into this particular topic with a clear statement about my point of origin.

Your pragmatism is showing again. i like to think nothing is cast in stone. Despicable, yes, but i believe most could see his casting her away a charade. i don't believe in a one way trip for anything. Worse case, turn it around and drive in reverse.

So you don't believe in a betrayal past forgetting if not forgiving?

-B

 

[AngelicAssassin]

I'm not in a position to do anything more than guess about what might pass muster in a D/s relationship.

Fake it ...

So you don't believe in a betrayal past forgetting if not forgiving?
-B

Forgive, almost always.

Forget, never.

 

[bridgeburner]

Fake it ...

Ah, but I never fake stuff that I know I'm going to get caught at. I've got the goods to theorize pretty acurately about a lot of this stuff, but I'm not about to lie about my actual experience. That's a dumb lie most often because when you're caught, you're caught. No wiggle room. ;->

Forgive, almost always.

Forget, never.

Same here, but it's the forgetting that affects trust. Forgiving is about getting over being hurt or angry. Forgetting is about agreeing to be vulnerable to a second betrayal.

-B

 

[bridgeburner]

And where the hell are all my buttons????

This new format is irritating the crap out of me.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

No wiggle room. ;->

There's always room to wiggle ... just ask Bill Cosby and Jell-O.

Same here, but it's the forgetting that affects trust. Forgiving is about getting over being hurt or angry. Forgetting is about agreeing to be vulnerable to a second betrayal.

-B

Can't agree that forget == trust. The foolish forget. The believer trusts.

 

[bridgeburner]

There's always room to wiggle ... just ask Bill Cosby and Jell-O.

A worm on a hook can wiggle, but it doesn't mean he's not well and truly skewered.

Can't agree that forget == trust. The foolish forget. The believer trusts.

To me trust means believing that the person is incapable of purposely betraying you. If someone has already betrayed you, then in order to believe that it won't happen again you have to forget that it's possible --- come to a point where that possibility no longer exists. It requires going back to a mindset before betrayal.

Even if you forgive and live with hope that it never happens again, the problem is that you may not ever truly, completely believe again that betrayal is impossible. The degree of likelihood is something that everyone decides for himself and it gets weighed against other factors and benefits of continuing a relationship. For me, it depends on the betrayal. I find that most often I just come to a point where I decide that I'm willing to accept further betrayals of whatever sort and act accordingly -- not trusting in those areas.

Learning to accept other people's limitations is a necessary thing, but it doesn't mean I don't remain wary. Perhaps my standards are too high in that regard, but it's kind of a hard-wired thing. I can understand and forgive and remain close and not dwell or obsess, but once a point of trust is broken it's very rare that I'll extend that benefit of the doubt again.


-B

 

[AngelicAssassin]

A worm on a hook can wiggle, but it doesn't mean he's not well and truly skewered.

Oh no. You wrap and knot the night crawler. Gives the little hermaphrodite the impression s/he actually has a chance. Oops ... 'scuse me. My sadism is showing.

To me trust means believing that the person is incapable of purposely betraying you. ... Learning to accept other people's limitations is a necessary thing, but it doesn't mean I don't remain wary. Perhaps my standards are too high in that regard, but it's kind of a hard-wired thing. I can understand and forgive and remain close and not dwell or obsess, but once a point of trust is broken it's very rare that I'll extend that benefit of the doubt again.

-B

Remind me to write you a script for a healthy dose of pragmatism. No one is infallible. Every one will slip, even in the area of trust. i bet you have a scale of "not a biggie" to "oh hell no you didn't" that gets kinda grey in the middle.

Ever have one of those days when the least little thing will have you ready to wring a neck over the least slight? Four days later, the same person could tie your shoe laces together right before a big meeting and you'd kiss them for helping rid you of a case of the nerves.

 

[bridgeburner]

Oh no. You wrap and knot the night crawler. Gives the little hermaphrodite the impression s/he actually has a chance. Oops ... 'scuse me. My sadism is showing.

Gee, and I just thought you were happy to see me. ;->

Remind me to write you a script for a healthy dose of pragmatism. No one is infallible. Every one will slip, even in the area of trust. i bet you have a scale of "not a biggie" to "oh hell no you didn't" that gets kinda grey in the middle.

Pragmatism has never been one of my lacks. I'm not talking about infallibility. I think it's imminently practical to know not only one's own limits but also the limits of those around you so that you don't expect things from people that they are unwilling or incapable of giving. Absolutely there's a scale. Humans are going to hurt one another and disappoint one another and piss each other off. That's life, but some things are less negotiable than others and there comes a point when the time for negotiation is just over.

Ever have one of those days when the least little thing will have you ready to wring a neck over the least slight? Four days later, the same person could tie your shoe laces together right before a big meeting and you'd kiss them for helping rid you of a case of the nerves.

Sure, but when I'm feeling like the hormonal bitch from hell I'm aware of it. I know I'm being unreasonable in my pique and take precautions not to inflict that on other people who are really not the cause of it to begin with.


-B

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Gee, and I just thought you were happy to see me. ;->

You aren't bleeding, in tears and confused to the point you're waffling between screaming no and begging more. Don't worry, be happy ...

Pragmatism has never been one of my lacks. I'm not talking about infallibility. I think it's imminently practical to know not only one's own limits but also the limits of those around you so that you don't expect things from people that they are unwilling or incapable of giving. Absolutely there's a scale. Humans are going to hurt one another and disappoint one another and piss each other off. That's life, but some things are less negotiable than others and there comes a point when the time for negotiation is just over.

i'm not saying bend over and take whatever comes darlin'; i'm suggesting you keep an open mind when someone makes that one unbelievably stupid mistake. On that rare occasion, the most intolerable mistake gets a bye. i'm all with you if said person makes the same mistake more than once.

Sure, but when I'm feeling like the hormonal bitch from hell I'm aware of it. I know I'm being unreasonable in my pique and take precautions not to inflict that on other people who are really not the cause of it to begin with.

-B

Keep it up and you're going to make me giggle.

 

[bridgeburner]

You aren't bleeding, in tears and confused to the point you're waffling between screaming no and begging more. Don't worry, be happy

No, I just meant "Is that sadism in your pocket or...." you know the rest.

...i'm not saying bend over and take whatever comes darlin'; i'm suggesting you keep an open mind when someone makes that one unbelievably stupid mistake. On that rare occasion, the most intolerable mistake gets a bye. i'm all with you if said person makes the same mistake more than once.

Then we're on the same page. I'm hardly the Red Queen. I see a big difference between accidental or even wrong-headed but understandable intentional infraction and true intent to harm.

Keep it up and you're going to make me giggle.

Indulge, it's good for your wah.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

No, I just meant "Is that sadism in your pocket or...." you know the rest.

And now you're tempting me to smile, with teeth. Shame on you for teasing the ... you know the rest.

Then we're on the same page. I'm hardly the Red Queen. I see a big difference between accidental or even wrong-headed but understandable intentional infraction and true intent to harm.

Funny you should mention her.

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/QofH.gif

Careful. You're liable to cut the knees out from under some poor sadist's mind.

Indulge, it's good for your wah.

Work at Home, panda, or working at home panda?
Screw it. Let the StayPuft marshmallow man have his day. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/fruit.gif

 

[bridgeburner]

Careful. You're liable to cut the knees out from under some poor sadist's mind.

Never!

Work at Home, panda, or working at home panda?
Screw it. Let the StayPuft marshmallow man have his day. http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/fruit.gif

I love that guy. If only he'd sing "Dum-dee-dum....dum-dee-dum.."

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Never!

Cha ... right!

I love that guy. If only he'd sing "Dum-dee-dum....dum-dee-dum.."

Feel free to hum for him. He'll fake it until he makes it ... http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2003-8/363868/2cool2.gif