Fake it until you make it?

[Mr Blonde]

In a separate thread, Netzach supported the idea that you should fake your experience until you actually acquire some experience.

You know, when I started this game I was 23, I had a flogger and a dress mannequin and some totally unearned bravado. I don't apologize for that girl one bit today. Fake it till you make it has a LOT of validity, a LOT. As long as you begin to break free of faking it. It is like being onstage, it *is* like learning to golf, it is like any of those things. You are going to improve.

I strongly disagree!

Personally I've tried to approach each relationship by portraying myself in a realistic way and sometimes even understated my experience. It is possible to be confident and still not be 100% sure of what you're doing. I have found that inexperience always shows, and it will be hard to get repeat business when they realize the first encounter was based on fabrications. I also don't think it is appropriate to draw people into a new situation through deception.

So how do I get ahead? How do I get that first chance by underselling myself? Do I lose out to people who stretch their qualifications and seem more experienced? Not really! I get ahead because people trust my self-deprecating style and tend to think I am strictly on the level about what I do have going for me.

So how about it? Is "fake it till you make it" a valid approach to BDSM?

Allowing for wiggle room, some people in this forum (like myself) are focused on relationships while other people (like Netzach) are focused on scening. One is not better than the other, and the different mindsets might explain the different viewpoints, so this might very well be an apples and oranges thing!

 

[catalina_francisco]

Hmmmm, I think Netzach is very much into the relationship angle (marriage is a fairly committed relationship IMHO), just not all those relationships have to be the traditional long term love type, while others are. I think there is room for both. For us we are interested in playing in a scene like sense with others who share a similar interest, or even extending ourselves to include kinks which may not be ours for the sake of not only accomodating both our tastes and theirs in some way, but adding another experience to our life which we may or may not want to repeat with others in the future.

As Netzach said, she would not attempt something dangerous unless she knew what she was doing, felt it was not harming beyond what the other wanted or was safe, or had guidance. We operate in a similar style. For example, my experience at topping last year worked well for all involved, though I had never before wielded a flogger, cane, or paddle on another before that experience.

I guess I faked it, though I was open it was experimental on my part and he was willing to accept that and trusted both of us to not put him in any position which would cause permanent damage or go beyond what he was willing to accept. That trust had been built through talking/communicating and him feeling I had a level of responsibility toward him, as well as being able to make him feel I was capable of topping him and feeding his desire to go there.

I could lie and say I knew I could do it before I did it, but reality is until you do something you are just hoping all goes to plan and you don't fall flat on your face. There is always a first time before you can say you have done anything in this life. F was there to guide if needed, but we found I had enough experience at the other end of the flogger etc., to apply that klnowledge and common sense, as well as the mental connection, to make the scene work well and safely. So while I don't recommend people go willy nilly into faking it without any knowledge and sense of responsibility, I do acknowledge for the most part unless everytime you try something new with your partner/s you have a third person there to instruct, you are basically faking it and learning through applied knowledge and experimentation.

Catalina

 

[Aeroil]

well if you're doing some kind of anal play where the sub needs to be relaxed, and you tell them "I've never done this before" then that's not gonna help much. umm, I dunno if this relates to the topic but I thought I'd throw it in.

 

[catalina_francisco]

well if you're doing some kind of anal play where the sub needs to be relaxed, and you tell them "I've never done this before" then that's not gonna help much. umm, I dunno if this relates to the topic but I thought I'd throw it in.

Comes down to common sense, sensitivity, knowledge, and establishing trust which is warranted.....how else do you suggest a PYL get that first time experience? Unless I am forgetting something, there is only one way to get experience and that is through doing whatever it is you need experience in. Sort of like losing virginity.....you do it once, but bottom line is you have to do something besides read a book or internet site, or ask others who have been there, to lose it and move onto your second experience.

Catalina

 

[Aeroil]

umm, I'm just saying that a scene like that may go smoother if the dom/me pretends they do have some experience to help the sub relax, espically if they have a very nervous sub.

 

[Little Bird]

I think it depends, as ever, on yourself.

Some say "Fuck first and get to know each other later", while others would never think of sex until they know each other for months.
For some it may work, for others not.

 

[catalina_francisco]

umm, I'm just saying that a scene like that may go smoother if the dom/me pretends they do have some experience to help the sub relax, espically if they have a very nervous sub.

Perhaps, but unless you are a very good actor they will see through you...and many ask if you have ever done the more risky or nerve generating things before submitting to them and from a sub POV and personal experience it is usually better for trust to be honest up front.

Catalina
damn typos!!

 

[Leliana]

Just be honest

Maybe it's just me but I consider honesty to be the best course of action. I don't see the necessity to fake experience in a certain domain when there has to be a first time for anyone. To know a Dominant has lied to me about his experience would make me wonder how many other lies he may have told me... I don't think I'd be able to trust that man after that.

Leliana

 

[Aeroil]

Perhaps, but unless you are a very good actor they will see through you...and many ask if you have ever done the more risly or hnerve generating things before submitting to them and from a sub POV and personal experience it is usually better for trust to be honest up front.

Catalina

hehe, probably, just making saying every situation is different.

 

[Despina]

Personally I've tried to approach each relationship by portraying myself in a realistic way and sometimes even understated my experience. It is possible to be confident and still not be 100% sure of what you're doing. I have found that inexperience always shows, and it will be hard to get repeat business when they realize the first encounter was based on fabrications. I also don't think it is appropriate to draw people into a new situation through deception.

So how do I get ahead? How do I get that first chance by underselling myself? Do I lose out to people who stretch their qualifications and seem more experienced? Not really! I get ahead because people trust my self-deprecating style and tend to think I am strictly on the level about what I do have going for me.

So how about it? Is "fake it till you make it" a valid approach to BDSM?

I didn't take Netzach's statement to mean that one should fake experience, but that they should wear an air of confidence that they might not have earned yet... and wear it proudly. In context, if memory serves, she was saying that being newly dominant was much like stepping into a new skin, one that did not fit perfectly at first, but was grown into.

In that context, I thought her statement was an invaluable bit of perspective. I'm fairly new to the lifestyle and could relate to some of the inner turmoil of being a beginner, yet still feeling the pressure of maintaining whatever trust/responsibility was placed on my shoulders. Catalina said it nicely when she made the point that we all have to start somewhere. How many submissives do you think would be lining up for a quivering, quaking newbie Dominant? Not many, I presume.

There are times that the next step is not obvious to a new Dominant and to maintain their status as the Dominant party they fake it, as opposed to halting a scene and hem-hawing around about what an experienced Dominant might do. I've read enough to make my eyes bleed, but the confidence of book-knowledge flew right out the door the second my flogger touched her skin. From there on out, I was operating on gut-instinct, communication and my overall responsibility to the scene. Other than that, I was faking it. Since then... not so much.

~Despina

 

[Netzach]

For the record I have never intimated or faked or hinted that I have experience that I do not have. I never would. I will tell someone, client or sub, or playmate or fellow Top "I've never done this before" or "I've only done this once with supervision" whenever that's the case.

I would never recomend faking experience or padding your SM resume. It's stupid, dangerous, and unwieldy.

What I am talking about is exactly what Despina said, wearing some semblence of confidence when you're not feeling your most confident. If you don't reach a little further than you know you can go comfortably, you are never going to grow as a Top or a bottom. Taking any and all risk out of everything would make BDSM not worth doing in my opinion, the issue is making sure that parties are cognizant of risk and that you adopt a "harm reduction" viewpoint at all times.

You have to bring an attitude to your SM and if you are a Top it cannot be a malleable, wishy washy, "oh God I think I'm gonna be sick, I'm in over my head, did I just wrap that cane?" even if you think these things you can't project them. In that sense, I can't believe I'm saying this, it's like being a military officer. These people have doubts and misgivings all the time, the ones who overshow or overshare them lose respect immediately.

 

[Netzach]

You've completely misinterpreted what I've said. This is also a news flash to me, would you care to tell me more about my life, since you seem to have it nailed?


Allowing for wiggle room, some people in this forum (like myself) are focused on relationships while other people (like Netzach) are focused on scening. One is not better than the other, and the different mindsets might explain the different viewpoints, so this might very well be an apples and oranges thing! [/B][/QUOTE]

 

[catalina_francisco]

For the record I have never intimated or faked or hinted that I have experience that I do not have. I never would. I will tell someone, client or sub, or playmate or fellow Top "I've never done this before" or "I've only done this once with supervision" whenever that's the case.

I would never recomend faking experience or padding your SM resume. It's stupid, dangerous, and unwieldy.

What I am talking about is exactly what Despina said, wearing some semblence of confidence when you're not feeling your most confident. If you don't reach a little further than you know you can go comfortably, you are never going to grow as a Top or a bottom. Taking any and all risk out of everything would make BDSM not worth doing in my opinion, the issue is making sure that parties are cognizant of risk and that you adopt a "harm reduction" viewpoint at all times.

You have to bring an attitude to your SM and if you are a Top it cannot be a malleable, wishy washy, "oh God I think I'm gonna be sick, I'm in over my head, did I just wrap that cane?" even if you think these things you can't project them. In that sense, I can't believe I'm saying this, it's like being a military officer. These people have doubts and misgivings all the time, the ones who overshow or overshare them lose respect immediately.

I can only agree with every single word you just have said Netzach, I have faked it lots of times.

Francisco.
.

 

[Mr Blonde]

Re: Re: Fake it until you make it?

Originally posted by Netzach
You've completely misinterpreted what I've said. This is also a news flash to me, would you care to tell me more about my life, since you seem to have it nailed?


Allowing for wiggle room, some people in this forum (like myself) are focused on relationships while other people (like Netzach) are focused on scening. One is not better than the other, and the different mindsets might explain the different viewpoints, so this might very well be an apples and oranges thing!

[/B][/QUOTE]

Certainly! You are very frequently talking about your scenes and what happens in a club setting or hotel room (as you were in that post), and I am almost always talking about what happens in a private relationship. You do professional work for money and/or have a "local reputation" to consider, while I am strictly an amateur being with a woman who is also my girlfriend in a private bedroom. I definitely do not have a reputation to uphold in any kind of "kink community". That doesn't mean I have a lock on romantic relationships and you are excluded from having some of your own, but obviously we are very different type of people compared to our posts -- neither better nor worse.

So when are with someone, you are trying to put on the best show so they are happy with the experience and other people will think you are capable. When I am with someone, I want to put on a good show -- but I am also concerned about how it impacts the rest of our boyfriend/girlfriend relationship. Such as if she catches me exaggerating or fabricating, she now has reason to doubt much larger things that to me are more important to me than whether a scene scored a 9/10 or merely a 7/10. I have to think not only about the one hour we are playing, but the other 23 hours I share with her where she judges me as a person.

I did not take anyone's position out of context. I said you were wrong for faking your comfort level, and you say I would immediately lose respect or worthiness for not presenting a more confident image. It is not a personal attack but we are going over a very gray area for how dominants will behave -- because how does any dominant get valid experience when they are starting from nothing? People will agree or disagree, type some paragraphs and then we move on to the next discussion thread.

 

[Netzach]

I'm coming at it from all angles here. I don't think I like the idea of being pigeonholed as a very casual fetishist when my marriage is a D/s relationship and certainly one in which I have to think about the long term perspective. I'm talking about long term relationships, short term relationships, and everything in between.

One of reasons I like Lit is so that my submissive husband is not subject to my periodic angst and doubt. I don't think that's fair to a submissive and in the past, when my self confidence has flagged in serious ways in front of him, it has only harmed the relationship and been a setback in his submission. I'm still repairing damage done due to lack of confidence and oversharing of doubts.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Originally posted by Mr Blonde I have to think not only about the one hour we are playing, but the other 23 hours I share with her where she judges me as a person.

I have found this a very interesting remark. I find this to be so alien to my own lifestyle, to clarify, the idea that you turn on and off the D/s or BDSM aspect of your life. I suppose if the majority of my life was vanilla and not TPE I would have a different viewpoint but I find it very selfish to burden my partner with my own insecurities during a scene. I have always thought it was the Dom/me task to be self-confident and to help his or her partner to overcome their fears.

Also that would reflect back on the rest of our life together, what kind of Dominant would I be if I could not overcome my own fears and insecurities for the short time a scene lasts.

To not only help your partner deal with their own insecurities and fears, but also refusing to help them by being the pillar they need at those times would be to me inexcusable. But then a woman has mentored me and women seem to have more empathy towards their partners than male dominants do, some of it must have rubbed off on me.

Of course I do have insecurities and of course I do share them with Catalina and she helps me overcome those, well I did not marry a counselor for nothing. But during a scene especially a challenging one I have always found that my partner will find it easier if I have a confident and self-assured aura. I will gladly take the small discomfort it means during a scene to help my partner overcome their fears.

Simply put would you trust someone with a whip who is quivering with fear, who’s piss is running down their legs. Or would you trust the dominant who seems to be standing with pride and without fear.

Francisco.

 

[Despina]

Re: Re: Re: Fake it until you make it?

I said you were wrong for faking your comfort level, and you say I would immediately lose respect or worthiness for not presenting a more confident image.

Is your stance that you're always brutally honest with your submissive, even when it comes to doubts/worries you might be having? I'm not talking simple communication issues and talk of limits and interests. When you were a beginner in your Dominant role and things happened that you weren't expecting, you let your doubts/worries be known to the submissive and just shrugged and said, "I'm new. That's what happens. At least you knew up front." *shrug*



I remember receiving some hella confusing emotions/sensations with many of my first experiences. Did I impose the responsibility of processing those on my submissive? No. I plugged away with the same focus I had when I began, whether it was based on experience or good knowledge or not. Seriously. Were you really completely comfortable dishing physical torment out on your submissive, having never done so before? If not, what was your method of moving foward if you weren't putting on an air of confidence that you didn't feel deep down?

~Despina

 

[catalina_francisco]

I don't think that's fair to a submissive and in the past, when my self confidence has flagged in serious ways in front of him, it has only harmed the relationship and been a setback in his submission. I'm still repairing damage done due to lack of confidence and oversharing of doubts.

This is definately true from a sub POV, at least for me. I can accept it being a first time expereince from the dominant's perspective, and admire the honesty in that, but if I sense any type of doubt they think they are doing the right thing or capable of getting us both through it for better rather than worse, I am not going to feel too comfortable placing myself in the role of guinea pig. For that trust to happen I at least have to sense confidence and strength from the Dominant. Perhaps it is unfair from a dominant perspective, but for the most part I think it is simple psychology working according to predicted outcomes.

Catalina

 

[SexxyDevil69]

I dont agree with that "fake it until you make it ide either because in my eyes its like lying and i hate lying and being lied to. I can understand why someone else might do it but i just cant see myself doing it and i would hope that no one would do it to me because it would crush me to know that someone i trusted from the beginning had lied to me. I donno thats just my opionion.

 

[Marquis]

Never let 'em see you sweat.

There's a reason the captain of the ship is the last to get off.

 

[Despina]

Never let 'em see you sweat.

There's a reason the captain of the ship is the last to get off.

EGGSZACHARY!

 

[lark sparrow]

I agree with fake it till you make it, and it happens on both ends.

A simple example: Sometimes I am genuinely happy and eager to help and serve my top. Sometimes I really don't feel much like making her tea, giving her a massage, doing some sort of household chore, taking a form of pain she wants to give, etc. But when I present the right or better attitude, we both feel good - certainly much better than if I rolled my eyes and dragged my feet.

It's not a matter of lying or feigning experience, so much as it is a positive, controlled attitude that addresses and serves the needs/desires of the relationship. Be it a play partner or a spouse.

 

[Quint]

I like FITYMI up to a certain point, which is the potential for concealing possible psychological issues that need to be addressed. For example, if he's having doubts about if he really wants to be doing this but has already committed himself to a confident exterior, it's a lot harder to keep communication open and fix what needs fixing. That's kind of the problem we ran into at the very beginning, and it necessitated a lot of backtracking and redefining who we were and what we were about.

 

[Marquis]

What the fuck is FITYMI?!

 

[lark sparrow]

The thread title abbreviated.