Faith-based presidency

ruminator

An unusual mind
Joined
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A 10+page (web page) article in the NY Times that looks at the evidence and effects of allowing faith to control judgement. It has an easy way of explaining situations that have occurred to understand what drives the decisions that don'tmake sense.

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The faith-based presidency is a with-us-or-against-us model that has been enormously effective at, among other things, keeping the workings and temperament of the Bush White House a kind of state secret. The dome of silence cracked a bit in the late winter and spring, with revelations from the former counterterrorism czar Richard Clarke and also, in my book, from the former Bush treasury secretary Paul O'Neill. When I quoted O'Neill saying that Bush was like ''a blind man in a room full of deaf people,'' this did not endear me to the White House. But my phone did begin to ring, with Democrats and Republicans calling with similar impressions and anecdotes about Bush's faith and certainty. These are among the sources I relied upon for this article. Few were willing to talk on the record. Some were willing to talk because they said they thought George W. Bush might lose; others, out of fear of what might transpire if he wins. In either case, there seems to be a growing silence fatigue -- public servants, some with vast experience, who feel they have spent years being treated like Victorian-era children, seen but not heard, and are tired of it. But silence still reigns in the highest reaches of the White House. After many requests, Dan Bartlett, the White House communications director, said in a letter that the president and those around him would not be cooperating with this article in any way.

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Without a Doubt

reistration may be required



I see the following in nearly every disagreement between people concerning GWB's action, decisions and policies. Many of his supporters find comfort and strength in this very faith that needs to be unquestioned to be believed.


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ruce Bartlett, a domestic policy adviser to Ronald Reagan and a treasury official for the first President Bush, told me recently that ''if Bush wins, there will be a civil war in the Republican Party starting on Nov. 3.'' The nature of that conflict, as Bartlett sees it? Essentially, the same as the one raging across much of the world: a battle between modernists and fundamentalists, pragmatists and true believers, reason and religion.

''Just in the past few months,'' Bartlett said, ''I think a light has gone off for people who've spent time up close to Bush: that this instinct he's always talking about is this sort of weird, Messianic idea of what he thinks God has told him to do.'' Bartlett, a 53-year-old columnist and self-described libertarian Republican who has lately been a champion for traditional Republicans concerned about Bush's governance, went on to say: ''This is why George W. Bush is so clear-eyed about Al Qaeda and the Islamic fundamentalist enemy. He believes you have to kill them all. They can't be persuaded, that they're extremists, driven by a dark vision. He understands them, because he's just like them. . .


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The consequences of denying reason to pursue decisions based purely on faith, any faith, are more dire when they affect so many innocent people.
 
I haven't seen anyone make any decision based SOLEY on anything.
 
I think people have been praying a hell of a lot more since Bush has been president.

They were on their knees for a different reason when Clinton was.
 
I wish God would tell Dubya exactly what to do to eliminate terrorists. He could use the help.
 
Another excerpt illustrates the inaccurate certainty that goes unchallenged. This is npt Bush-bashing. This is taking an honest look at the thinking in charge of our foreign policy decision making.

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Some officials, elected or otherwise, with whom I have spoken with left meetings in the Oval Office concerned that the president was struggling with the demands of the job. Others focused on Bush's substantial interpersonal gifts as a compensation for his perceived lack of broader capabilities. Still others, like Senator Carl Levin of Michigan, a Democrat, are worried about something other than his native intelligence. ''He's plenty smart enough to do the job,'' Levin said. ''It's his lack of curiosity about complex issues which troubles me.'' But more than anything else, I heard expressions of awe at the president's preternatural certainty and wonderment about its source.



There is one story about Bush's particular brand of certainty I am able to piece together and tell for the record.

In the Oval Office in December 2002, the president met with a few ranking senators and members of the House, both Republicans and Democrats. In those days, there were high hopes that the United States-sponsored ''road map'' for the Israelis and Palestinians would be a pathway to peace, and the discussion that wintry day was, in part, about countries providing peacekeeping forces in the region. The problem, everyone agreed, was that a number of European countries, like France and Germany, had armies that were not trusted by either the Israelis or Palestinians. One congressman -- the Hungarian-born Tom Lantos, a Democrat from California and the only Holocaust survivor in Congress -- mentioned that the Scandinavian countries were viewed more positively. Lantos went on to describe for the president how the Swedish Army might be an ideal candidate to anchor a small peacekeeping force on the West Bank and the Gaza Strip. Sweden has a well-trained force of about 25,000. The president looked at him appraisingly, several people in the room recall.

''I don't know why you're talking about Sweden,'' Bush said. ''They're the neutral one. They don't have an army.''

Lantos paused, a little shocked, and offered a gentlemanly reply: ''Mr. President, you may have thought that I said Switzerland. They're the ones that are historically neutral, without an army.'' Then Lantos mentioned, in a gracious aside, that the Swiss do have a tough national guard to protect the country in the event of invasion.

Bush held to his view. ''No, no, it's Sweden that has no army.''

The room went silent, until someone changed the subject.


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I can't laugh at this.
 
phrodeau said:
I wish God would tell Dubya exactly what to do to eliminate terrorists. He could use the help.

That's part of the problem. He thinks he heard a direction to try to kill them all.
 
perks said:
I haven't seen anyone make any decision based SOLEY on anything.

Heya Perks.

I think GWB is following his 'instinct' in the face of reason that indicates he should decide otherwise.
 
So wait...you think Shrub actually believes himself when he says that dieties are whispering in his ear??
 
ruminator said:
Heya Perks.

I think GWB is following his 'instinct' in the face of reason that indicates he should decide otherwise.

he is the most sophomoric president ever. He is so arrogant that he's missing the day to day reality of his enormous decisions. The thing I hate the most about him is his lack of understanding. He has no depth. It's as if he learned only what was spoon fed to him, and it was all political and monetary, and has nothing else of substance to back him up. His Mass decisions kill and mame more and more people we know, and he can do nothing but "stick to his guns" like a stubborn, arrogant ass.

What have we gained except the loss of more civil liberties and lives?

okay, I'm out of here. I hate political threads, and I'm so off topic/on soapbox.
 
Nora said:
So wait...you think Shrub actually believes himself when he says that dieties are whispering in his ear??

Yes, Nora, I do,.....well, sometimes it's Rove talking in an earpiece.
:D

I think faith is a powerful force and can change the way a person perceives the world around him and his role to be played.
 
ruminator said:
Yes, Nora, I do,.....well, sometimes it's Rove talking in an earpiece.
:D

I think faith is a powerful force and can change the way a person perceives the world around him and his role to be played.


I think faith is what silly people use in place of logic.
 
perks said:
he is the most sophomoric president ever. He is so arrogant that he's missing the day to day reality of his enormous decisions. The thing I hate the most about him is his lack of understanding. He has no depth. It's as if he learned only what was spoon fed to him, and it was all political and monetary, and has nothing else of substance to back him up. His Mass decisions kill and mame more and more people we know, and he can do nothing but "stick to his guns" like a stubborn, arrogant ass.

What have we gained except the loss of more civil liberties and lives?

okay, I'm out of here. I hate political threads, and I'm so off topic/on soapbox.

In case you peek in again,....

I agree and I think part of it is because he's never been held to correct mistakes or be accountable for his decisions. He's always had someone to help cover for him and he didn't have to develop those problem solving skills.

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Biden, who early on became disenchanted with Bush's grasp of foreign-policy issues and is among John Kerry's closest Senate friends, has spent a lot of time trying to size up the president. ''Most successful people are good at identifying, very early, their strengths and weaknesses, at knowing themselves,'' he told me not long ago. ''For most of us average Joes, that meant we've relied on strengths but had to work on our weakness -- to lift them to adequacy -- otherwise they might bring us down. I don't think the president really had to do that, because he always had someone there -- his family or friends -- to bail him out. I don't think, on balance, that has served him well for the moment he's in now as president. He never seems to have worked on his weaknesses.''

Bush has been called the C.E.O. president, but that's just a catch phrase -- he never ran anything of consequence in the private sector. The M.B.A. president would be more accurate: he did, after all, graduate from Harvard Business School. And some who have worked under him in the White House and know about business have spotted a strange business-school time warp. It's as if a 1975 graduate from H.B.S. -- one who had little chance to season theory with practice during the past few decades of change in corporate America -- has simply been dropped into the most challenging management job in the world.


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ruminator said:
Yes, Nora, I do,.....well, sometimes it's Rove talking in an earpiece.
:D

I think faith is a powerful force and can change the way a person perceives the world around him and his role to be played.

Ok, I really figured that even he didn't believe that crap...that it was just a way to bullshit the stoopid among us.



So, you think he had to pay for the lobotomy or did he get it for free?
 
Problem Child said:
I think faith is what silly people use in place of logic.
Yeah, I think some do. I think some use faith to avoid facing reality and others feel that it's the right thing for them to do.

How do we define the people who see the problem this causes but don't stand up to the challenge of contradicting it?

I know they are enabling that behavior to continue, but those of true faith should see the damage it causes.
 
Nora said:
Ok, I really figured that even he didn't believe that crap...that it was just a way to bullshit the stoopid among us.



So, you think he had to pay for the lobotomy or did he get it for free?

Isn't he the one who said "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy?"
 
ruminator said:
Isn't he the one who said "I'd rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy?"

Nope, that was me. :D
 
Nora said:
Nope, that was me. :D

I always did like that old saying.


GWB has had a left brain / right brain struggle going on for most of his life........
 
ruminator said:
GWB has had a left brain / right brain struggle going on for most of his life........

I think you're giving him too much credit.
 
Nora said:
I think you're giving him too much credit.

Naw, that was a lobbed serve to set you up.

Are you saying I'm too easy on the new Messiah?
 
Excuse yet another excerpt, but the article is just chock-full of idiocy. This is right out of Dr. Strangelove:

In the summer of 2002, after I had written an article in Esquire that the White House didn't like about Bush's former communications director, Karen Hughes, I had a meeting with a senior adviser to Bush. He expressed the White House's displeasure, and then he told me something that at the time I didn't fully comprehend -- but which I now believe gets to the very heart of the Bush presidency.

The aide said that guys like me were ''in what we call the reality-based community,'' which he defined as people who ''believe that solutions emerge from your judicious study of discernible reality.'' I nodded and murmured something about enlightenment principles and empiricism. He cut me off. ''That's not the way the world really works anymore,'' he continued. ''We're an empire now, and when we act, we create our own reality. And while you're studying that reality -- judiciously, as you will -- we'll act again, creating other new realities, which you can study too, and that's how things will sort out. We're history's actors . . . and you, all of you, will be left to just study what we do.''



So this White House defines itself in opposition to "the reality-based community". Things are coming into focus now.
 
ruminator said:
Naw, that was a lobbed serve to set you up.

Are you saying I'm too easy on the new Messiah?

Umm...yes. Especially after reading the portion that Wrong Element quoted.

That's just some fucking scary shit right there.
 
Nora said:
Umm...yes. Especially after reading the portion that Wrong Element quoted.

That's just some fucking scary shit right there.

He's the leader of possibly the most powerful nation in the world. He doesn't need to be based in this reality if he's been called by a higher power to fullfill divine predestination.



.......he sure as hell got some low test scores though. You know, somewhere on a permanent record of his is the comment of him being an underachiever.

:D
 
George reminds me of a number of people I have known who were brash and used God as a way to bring themselves a way to control their sociatal "out of control" behavior. In many ways these are some of the most difficult people: they don't have it within themselves to have values or discernment, so they need outside control. Theirs is not an internalized faith, but is externalized. (Arm chair psych, I know. ) They generally wear their Bibles on their sleeves and are some of the most judgemental people around with very low tolerance of differences.

It comes back to that saying "religion makes bad people worse and good people better."
 
ruminator said:
He's the leader of possibly the most powerful nation in the world. He doesn't need to be based in this reality if he's been called by a higher power to fullfill divine predestination.



.......he sure as hell got some low test scores though. You know, somewhere on a permanent record of his is the comment of him being an underachiever.

:D

I think this is one of those places in which this works really well:

http://www.deltos.com/family/steve/images/BumperStickers/voterepu.gif
 
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