Faces

[dr_mabeuse]

From an Op-Ed piece by Maureen Dowd in the New York Times:

Asked during a Congressional budget hearing on Thursday how many American troops had been killed in Iraq, Mr. Wolfowitz missed by more than 30 percent. "It's approximately 500, of which — I can get the exact numbers — approximately 350 are combat deaths," he said.

As of Thursday, there were 722 deaths, 521 in combat. The No. 2 man at the Pentagon was oblivious in the bloodiest month of the war, with the number of Americans killed in April overtaking those killed in the six-week siege of Baghdad last year.

Here's the link to the piece:

http://www.nytimes.com/2004/05/02/opinion/02DOWD.html

---dr.M.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

There seems to be an abundance of those willing to criticize America and very few, at least in the 'hangout' who would defend.

I have yet to read of one defense for a command economy, or of one defense of a socialist nation. I guess since you cannot defend your political and economic viewpoints, the only thing left for you is to criticize.

Bring it on.

regards...amicus

I don't see how being anti-Iraq war or anti-Bush for that matter has anything to do with being anti-American. Rather the opposite, in my opinion.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

From an Op-Ed piece by Maureen Dowd in the New York Times:

Asked during a Congressional budget hearing on Thursday how many American troops had been killed in Iraq, Mr. Wolfowitz missed by more than 30 percent. "It's approximately 500, of which — I can get the exact numbers — approximately 350 are combat deaths," he said.

As of Thursday, there were 722 deaths, 521 in combat. The No. 2 man at the Pentagon was oblivious in the bloodiest month of the war, with the number of Americans killed in April overtaking those killed in the six-week siege of Baghdad last year.

He knew, Dr. M. He was just trying to be supportive of the troops.

 

[amicus]

SheReads....I did not like the news or the photos about the torture that went on in Iraq perpetrated by American GI's. I would like not to believe or accept what I have read, heard and seen..but I saw Henry Kissinger interviewed on the subject, along with several active and retired military people. It appears that it did happen.

Does any rational person condone or approve of it? No, I think not. Is it understandable? Yes, of course it is.

I study anthropology to assist in writing a novel about early humans. When 'tribes' or 'clans' of early people fought and conquered other groups, they killed all the men and pregnant women and children, keeping only the breeding females.

That just as a background implying that, 'human nature' can be very violent but self preserving.

Torturing captured warriors or soldiers is as old as we have history to confirm it. Is it US policy to 'torture' Iraqi prisoners? My guess would be yes, it is. I would imagine that Sadam Hussein himself has been administered 'truth serum' drugs in an effort to determine the location or existence of weapons of mass destruction. I also would think that other high ranking Iraqi officials have suffered the same treatment.

Would I personally conduct or order such tactics for interrogation? No, I would not. But I am a bit of a whuss when in comes to the sanctity of human life.

But do I understand that if a cache of a chemical nerve agent that could kill millions was discovered because of torture? Yes, I can understand that mindset.

I would prefer if you recognized that these traits and characteristics are common to all men, not just Americans.

I do not vote, I am not a Republican, I do not even like the current President and I do not defend most of his actions.

Ahhh...I have a thunderstorm approaching and must turn off the computer....later....amicus...

 

[shereads]

I would prefer if you recognized that these traits and characteristics are common to all men, not just Americans.

I do recognize that. Apparently you don't recognize the irony. We're there for one single reason, if you believe the current story: to rescue these people from their torturer and show them how to achieve freedom.

I do not vote

Thank you.

 

[Edward Teach]

.... I would like not to believe or accept what I have read, heard and seen..but I saw Henry Kissinger interviewed on the subject, along with several active and retired military people. It appears that it did happen.


....Is it US policy to 'torture' Iraqi prisoners? My guess would be yes, it is. I would imagine that Sadam Hussein himself has been administered 'truth serum' drugs in an effort to determine the location or existence of weapons of mass destruction. I also would think that other high ranking Iraqi officials have suffered the same treatment.


I do not vote, I am not a Republican, I do not even like the current President and I do not defend most of his actions.

Amicus, how old are you? Tell the truth.

Ed

 

[steve w]

sher,

There is, as far as I know, no website or any other official or public list of those who have died in the conflict who are not American. The "coalition of the willing" is not, it appears, willing to tell its own people who had died in their name.

In answer to an earlier question, the veterans' groups in the US hold far more power and influence, and are far more organised, than their equivalents in the UK. War widows here still receive a pittance, and Gulf War Syndrome is still not acknowledged by our government as a bona-fide condition. Those in the armed forces receive no favours or special treatment compared to the rest of society. And those forced to watch nuclear tests in the 1950s are allowed to die while lawyers get fat arguing about their compensation.

I also sense some irony in amicus' musings on the "human condition". I applaud your desire to study anthropology, ami, but I would suggest that human civilization has moved on. I'm no expert, but I believe our social mores and values (in all kinds of societies - yes, even Islamic nations) are designed to stop people killing, maiming and torturing each other. I believe this activity violates their human rights. I think the US signed the Geneva Convention (albeit they are the biggest debtors to the United Nations), and so should be capable of honouring that most basic of agreements.

By the way, while I am English, I live in Britain. Britain (or the UK) is made up of four nations. England is not Britain, just as Texas is not the US.

Regards

 

[SummerMorning]

Ah... Britain, land of the Manxmen and the Cornish - all gone now, alas. There goes diversity...

As to anthropology. I believe the paradigm has gone some way towards cultural relativism and denying the existence of a "human nature" per se.

In short - there is no human nature (neither is there a human nurture). Humans are complex social organisms, whose specific characteristics are determined to such an extent by culture and socialization that disentangling the genetic from the social is utterly impossible - hence, there can be no fixed human nature.

 

[Guest]

In short - there is no human nature (neither is there a human nurture). Humans are complex social organisms, whose specific characteristics are determined to such an extent by culture and socialization that disentangling the genetic from the social is utterly impossible - hence, there can be no fixed human nature.

SM: that's one of the most interesting thoughts I've read here in some time. Don't want to go off this thread so would you start one, or may I quote you? Offhandedly I thought, "Existentialism might be the only human nature."

Perdita

 

[SummerMorning]

Go ahead, you post - I think your posts get more attention than mine

I tend to obfuscate with epistemological conundra overmuchly as regards the ontological basis of knowledge... (damn, I'm good at massacring language )

 

[shereads]

Big words hard reading, Summer. My head hurt.

 

[SummerMorning]

Hurt my mp3s too! All my Hendrix mp3s are botched... grumble.

 

[amicus]

"In short - there is no human nature (neither is there a human nurture). Humans are complex social organisms, whose specific characteristics are determined to such an extent by culture and socialization that disentangling the genetic from the social is utterly impossible - hence, there can be no fixed human nature."

Summermorning....practising obfuscastion without a license.

How marvelous for those who dabble a toe in the cold logic of knowledge and quickly withdraw in Platonic and Hegelian Relativism.

In short, the phrase, "...there is no human nature..." is an oxymoron. The etymology of language defines the process, one can not discard science simply because it does not please their mindset.

Of course humans are complex...as yes, molded by much, but logic should demonstrate that the 'general', emanates from the 'specific'. In other words, the 'social' aspects of man originate in the 'nature' of man. To study only the social aspects without a base/foundation will take you exactly where you have arrived.

A generation afflicted with a virus engendered by Existentialism
and Logical Positivism should not be surprised to find they do not sleep well while pondering the imponderable.

To one who asked of my age, old, my friend, very old.

regards...amicus...

 

[Guest]

I find nothing obfuscating, Hegelian, Platonic or other ism-ness about Summer A.M. I enjoy his style and voice. Just saying.

Perdita

 

[shereads]

How marvelous for those who dabble a toe in the cold logic of knowledge and quickly withdraw in Platonic and Hegelian Relativism.

More big words read. Head pain too much.

 

[shereads]

Not sure which is more troubling this morning:

Concerns that Diebold, Inc., the manufacturer of Florida's new voting machines and a major contributor to the campaigns of Gov. Jeb Bush and Pres. George W., has not designed them to produce a paper trail...

Or the fact that I now take seriously the possibility of a rigged election. I used to shrug off conspiracy theories. The Vanity Fair article this month, which details the multiple-year string of events and agendas that led to the Iraq invasion, has me believing there are people who will go to any lengths to make sure they keep the White House this year.

The New World Order is at stake.

 

[Somme]

Not sure which is more troubling this morning:

Concerns that Diebold, Inc., the manufacturer of Florida's new voting machines and a major contributor to the campaigns of Gov. Jeb Bush and Pres. George W., has not designed them to produce a paper trail...

Or the fact that I now take seriously the possibility of a rigged election. I used to shrug off conspiracy theories. The Vanity Fair article this month, which details the multiple-year string of events and agendas that led to the Iraq invasion, has me believing there are people who will go to any lengths to make sure they keep the White House this year.

The New World Order is at stake.

www.scoop.co.nz ......with all the latest and the history on Diebold. You can even download the code.......(and here our intrepid Somme wanders off wondering who he'd like to see in Washington...; if only he could USE the sodding code......)

 

[shereads]

Somme, I'm afraid to download "the code."

 

[shereads]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm

Still.

 

[Somme]

mmm......almost, almost an ethical dilemma.

 

[cantdog]

My way of life, for example, hasn't depended so far on whether or not Iraq was allowed to govern itself.

The most serious threat to freedom is this very pack of Bushite yahoos we got running the joint here. Secret police is not freedom.

What we "gave" to Iraq isn't freedom, either. I daresay a few of these fellows signed up to protect us, but the job they were given has precious little to do with protecting us. They might have signed up to protect, defend or foster freedom, but ditto ditto, no freedom got protected by sending them there. Au contaire.

The people who used their naive good will to send them there in pusuit of empire are the ones who betrayed them.; and those same people are setting up the secret state police and the torture chambers. They have no use for freedom, because a free human being doesn't knuckle under to their like.