Faces

[shereads]

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/world/iraq/casualties/facesofthefallen.htm



I'd like to think that Dick Cheney and Ahmad Chalabi and Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush look at this site every day and check for new faces, but I doubt it. I'd like to think that at least one among them thinks, "I did this. I lied to accomplish this."

So many of these faces are of 18 and 19-year-olds. They still have have the camera-shy grins of high school kids posing for the year book.

We should have taken better care of them.

 

[amicus]

for Shereads...opposites we are and likely to remain, however, I find myself unable to ignore your unspoken hostility to those who defend that which they love.

I, as a camera shy young boy of 17, volunteered my services to the United States Navy. I took an oath to defend this Nation and all that it stands for.

Since pre-history, the young have volunteered to defend that which they love; that which has nurtured and sustained them.

You do a great injustice to the young men of the Army, Navy, Air Force, Marine Corps and Coast Guard who have, 'volunteered' to serve in defense of 'our' way of life.

There is an honor involved when a family sends a young man or woman to a perimeter of defense for those who remain safe at home.

I do not challenge your right to be a pacifist, or your own ideological foundation, but for those who appreciate the necessity of defending the values they live by, I offer my words of encouragement.

We will protect the freedoms gained by previous defense, not for your sake, but for ours and our childrens.

regards...amicus...

 

[kiwiwolf]

amicus I see no wrong in what Shereads has posted here today. I can't see anywhere a disparaging remark about those who serve and/ or have fallen in combat. I think her remarks are pertinent and timely. She points out that those who sent them to fight and die should acquaint themselves with the faces of those who died for thier policies and wishes.

She is in fact honouring the fallen. I agree with her. The governments of all the countries concerned should have looked after thier young men and women better.

I too am an ex soldier. I've seen friends die... whether the cause is just or not... it is still a death to those in the field. And a number to those in the coridors of power.

 

[amicus]

agenda

Quote from Shereads

"I'd like to think that Dick Cheney and Ahmad Chalabi and Donald Rumsfeld and George W. Bush look at this site every day and check for new faces, but I doubt it. I'd like to think that at least one among them thinks, "I did this. I lied to accomplish this."

Shereads has an agenda..she is anti Bush..anti Republican, anti the free enterprise system..which 'she' has an unabridged right to have.

But only here, in America, does she have that right.

She is not 'honoring the fallen', as you state, she is bemoaning that fact that they fell. To her, and her philosophy, there is never a reason to risk or give live to defend human freedom. I happen to disagree: adamantly.

 

[rgraham666]

Don't waste your time engaging amicus, kiwiwolf. He's an ideologue. He knows The Truth and The Way. He no longer believes himself to be ignorant and sees no reason to listen to those of a differing opinion.

Shereads? One of the things that makes killing easy is dehumanising the people you are trying to kill. This site made people out of the fallen. If the Iraqis were people too, maybe Shrub II et al. would have found another way than war to gain their goals.

I would very much have liked to serve. But I knew, even at a young age, that I wouldn't have survived. I barely survived the rather strict conformity of civilian society. In the strictly enforced society of the military, I would have ended up like that poor sod in Full Metal Jacket; sitting on a toilet with a rifle in my mouth and my brains decorating the wall behind me.

Still, not serving will remain one of the failures of my life.

 

[shereads]

Thank you kiwi and rg. I spent a long time looking at the faces of these men and women when I happened upon this site while reading Washington Post online. There's something deeply moving about seeing a single face, especially a smiling one with so much optimism, and imagining the life that might have been. They deserve to be seen, and not just recorded as names and numbers.

 

[shereads]

Still, not serving will remain one of the failures of my life.

You have a fine brain, rg, and shouldn't waste it on regret. Consider one more name on the wall vs. one more voice on their behalf.

 

[dr_mabeuse]

Amicus,

No one is putting down the military or disparaging the courage and the sacrifice of our soldiers.

What we are saying—or maybe I should just speak for myself on this—is that, whatever we’re doing over there, our troops are not defending our freedom and they are not making us safer. That's what we're bitching about, that our leaders have lied to us and misled us. We feel that this is the wrong war in the wrong place at the wrong time, and so all the bloodshed and all the loss and death over there is all for nothing. That’s the tragedy.

---dr.M.

 

[shereads]

Thanks, Dr. M.

If there had been a smallpox lab and a couple of those long-range missiles that we were told could be deployed in less than 45 minutes, these deaths would still be an immeasurable loss - but there would have been a reason, at least.

There will always be people who march in lockstep, and there will be people for whom any war fought under our flag is somehow "in defense of our way of life." For them, the only way to honor the fallen is to send more 18-year-olds to fight in their place, and to keep doing so until we win. Unfortunately, there's no clear goal in Iraq to tell us that we've won.

 

[destinie21]

You don't have to be anti bush or anti anything to want to recognize the lives of our fallen soilders many not even beyond the threshold of childhood, it's a hard pill to swallow when you look at the fact that many of the fighters sent off to "defend" aren't even legal drinking age in the US.and the question remains what are they defending?

 

[Guest]

...

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Soldiers die. Each man or woman who signs on the dotted line at the recuritment center knows full well that the possibility exists that they will be called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice.

Reservists sign up, more often than not, for the benefits that come with being military. They hope and in some cases expect, that the only sacrifice they will be called upon to make is two weeks a year and one weekend a month of their time, but even reservists know that they could be called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice in some place far from home.

The tragedy here, to me is not that they went to war for reasons that are thus far unsubstantiated. Saddam needed to be removed. That goal, in and of itself justifies the sacrifices of those who gave their lives in the operational phases of the war in Iraq. He was a monster of our own creation and the blood he so callously spilt & the misery & suffering he so easily inflicted upon his own people was on our hands just as much as his own.

The tragedy is that they are soldiers, trained to wage war. They are not policemen, trained to keep a population that is hateful, resentful and violent under control. They are being asked to perfom a job for which they have no training and they are dying in what amounts to an occupation.

Every soldier realizes he might have to give his life for his country. Every soldier realizes he may be killed in combat. It is something all who serve accept. But none should be dying in the occupation of a country after combat is declared over. Dying as a soldier is something they are all prepared for. Dying as an occupier is something none of them should be facing.

-Colly

 

[amicus]

rgraham said, "Don't waste your time engaging amicus, kiwiwolf. He's an ideologue."

You know full well that spouting an ideology is not even a small part of my repartee.

I will say that after 20 years of talking to people on the telephone, on the air..as a radio talk show host, I did learn to recognize those advocates of a certain ilk.

The most recognizable were those who claimed to know nothing and had no absolute values; by stating that, they intended to feed on the stated ignorance of all involved. I usually just hung up on them.

I will forever be puzzled how those who admit total ignorance of the issue at hand can claim intellectual superiority over those with knowledge.

I rather think you do not like the flaws in your arguments being pointed out for all to see.

This nation does and always has, mourned its fallen in conflict. We have days set aside, cemeteries, walls and monuments inscribed with names so that those who gave the ultimate sacrifice for human freedom are not forgotten.

Perhaps you can think of another name to call me rather than engage in debate.

regards...amicus

 

[shereads]

deleted

 

[shereads]

for Shereads...opposites we are and likely to remain,

God, amicus, I hope so.

 

[lewdandlicentious]

Soldiers die. Each man or woman who signs on the dotted line at the recuritment center knows full well that the possibility exists that they will be called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice.

Reservists sign up, more often than not, for the benefits that come with being military. They hope and in some cases expect, that the only sacrifice they will be called upon to make is two weeks a year and one weekend a month of their time, but even reservists know that they could be called upon to make the ultimate sacrifice in some place far from home.

The tragedy here, to me is not that they went to war for reasons that are thus far unsubstantiated. Saddam needed to be removed. That goal, in and of itself justifies the sacrifices of those who gave their lives in the operational phases of the war in Iraq. He was a monster of our own creation and the blood he so callously spilt & the misery & suffering he so easily inflicted upon his own people was on our hands just as much as his own.

The tragedy is that they are soldiers, trained to wage war. They are not policemen, trained to keep a population that is hateful, resentful and violent under control. They are being asked to perfom a job for which they have no training and they are dying in what amounts to an occupation.

Every soldier realizes he might have to give his life for his country. Every soldier realizes he may be killed in combat. It is something all who serve accept. But none should be dying in the occupation of a country after combat is declared over. Dying as a soldier is something they are all prepared for. Dying as an occupier is something none of them should be facing.

-Colly

Colly,

You make some intelligent and very valid points.

But what are we to do then, just pull out and let them fight amongst themselves, probably ending up a country in a worse state than before the conflict started. What would be said about our governments then.

The problem I believe isn't only with the Iraqi's.

Anyone from anywhere with a grudge against America, and a gun, or just people from anywhere who want to kill for free, are flocking to the region to have a go at just that!

It's almost impossible to guard against.

And as you say, they have no experience in it.

 

[shereads]

Anyone from anywhere with a grudge against America, and a gun, or just people from anywhere who want to kill for free, are flocking to the region to have a go at just that!

That's exactly why I want this administration to stop pretending that we made inroads against terrorism. Saddam Hussein was many things, but one of them wasn't a friend of Islamic extremists. There was at least a civil structure in place that made one country off-limits to terrorist training camps and fringe groups. It was ridiculously short-sighted to destroy the civil structure of a country without having a clue of how to put one together.

I agree that we can't leave; there will be a bloodbath when we do, that might well rival Saddam Hussein's craziness. But if we at least had the grace to admit we made a mistake, there might be some support from the rest of the world. It's their problem too, but until we at least acknowledge reality and agree to give up some control - seeing as how it hasn't been very effective control - I don't see how we can expect others to volunteer. Until there is some kind of solution, beginning with an acknowledgement of just how bad things really are, we're just going to keep dumping more 18-year-olds into the funnel.

 

[kiwiwolf]

Re: agenda

Shereads has an agenda..she is anti Bush..anti Republican, anti the free enterprise system..which 'she' has an unabridged right to have.

But only here, in America, does she have that right.

She is not 'honoring the fallen', as you state, she is bemoaning that fact that they fell. To her, and her philosophy, there is never a reason to risk or give live to defend human freedom. I happen to disagree: adamantly.

Who gives a big rats ass whether Shereads is anit-Bush and anti-Republican. So am I and I don't even live in the States. You are totally missing the point to the extent where I should advise you to remove your cranium from your anal sphincter and take a look around.

Your post is so full of crap it astounds me that you had the balls to hit the submit button.


"But only here, in America, does she have that right."

Bollocks! In New Zealand at the moment we have a Member of Parliament voting against her parties wishes on a bill up for consideration. It happens every day all around the world... not just in the good old US of A. (I expect to be branded a Yank hater for that slight.)

If she is bemoaning the fact that they fell, as you state, then bloody good on her. I stand up and applaud her. Yes, in war people die. Combatants and non-combatants. Sometimes it is a necessary evil, sometimes not. But any way you cut it, a death is nothing to celebrate.

Wake up and smell the coffee son. I offer a standing ovation to Shereads.

 

[shereads]

Re: Re: agenda

Who gives a big rats ass whether Shereads is anit-Bush and anti-Republican. So am I and I don't even live in the States. You are totally missing the point to the extent where I should advise you to remove your cranium from your anal sphincter and take a look around.

Your post is so full of crap it astounds me that you had the balls to hit the submit button.


"But only here, in America, does she have that right."

Bollocks! In New Zealand at the moment we have a Member of Parliament voting against her parties wishes on a bill up for consideration. It happens every day all around the world... not just in the good old US of A. (I expect to be branded a Yank hater for that slight.)

If she is bemoaning the fact that they fell, as you state, then bloody good on her. I stand up and applaud her. Yes, in war people die. Combatants and non-combatants. Sometimes it is a necessary evil, sometimes not. But any way you cut it, a death is nothing to celebrate.

Wake up and smell the coffee son. I offer a standing ovation to Shereads.

Wow. Kiwi, can I use your entire post for my signature?

I feel like I should offer you a drink, or sex, or something.

 

[kiwiwolf]

Re: Re: Re: agenda

Wow. Kiwi, can I use your entire post for my signature?

I feel like I should offer you a drink, or sex, or something.

Don't tease me... how about sex followed by a drink? I'll have a Scotch on the rocks thanks.

My post as your sig??? Go for it. I'd be honoured. LOL

It annoys me when someone yaps from a point of view that is backed only by blind ignorance. The guy is obviously a patriot, which is good. Patriotism is the cornerstone of any good nation. However he is blindly following an ideology which is going to see many more Coalition troops... not just Americans, die. George Jnr. got his little war, but he bit off much more than he could chew.

 

[shereads]

Re: Re: Re: Re: agenda

It annoys me when someone yaps from a point of view that is backed only by blind ignorance. The guy is obviously a patriot, which is good.

Not so fast: "Patriotism is a childhood disease; the measles of mankind." That was Einstein, not shereads, but having met a few die-hards who hide their eyes behind the flag whenever their country is in the wrong, I'm beginning to agree that it's a disease, all right.

Single-malt scotch, or a blend?

 

[kiwiwolf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: agenda

Not so fast: "Patriotism is a childhood disease; the measles of mankind." That was Einstein, not shereads, but having met a few die-hards who hide their eyes behind the flag whenever their country is in the wrong, I'm beginning to agree that it's a disease, all right.

Single-malt scotch, or a blend?

I believe that patriotism is good. Blind loyalty is inherently bad. The trick is identifying which is which.


Single malt please. Glenmorangie 18 year old if you have it.

 

[shereads]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: agenda

Single malt please. Glenmorangie 18 year old if you have it.

Not only do I have it, I have a dozen cases of it. Elves led me to their stash, and we danced in the glen until dawn.

I'm serving it in a cut crystal tumbler, on an antique serling silver tray, along with a linen napkin embroidered with your initials.

Oh, and cookies. There are cookies.

Enjoy.

And thanks for pointing out that someone's head is up his, um, derriere.

 

[kiwiwolf]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: agenda

Not only do I have it, I have a dozen cases of it. Elves led me to their stash, and we danced in the glen until dawn.

I'm serving it in a cut crystal tumbler, on an antique serling silver tray, along with a linen napkin embroidered with your initials.

Oh, and cookies. There are cookies.

Enjoy.

And thanks for pointing out that someone's head is up his, um, derriere.

Don't worry about the crystal... I'll drink it from your... navel. Yeah that's the word I was after... navel.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Colly,

You make some intelligent and very valid points.

But what are we to do then, just pull out and let them fight amongst themselves, probably ending up a country in a worse state than before the conflict started. What would be said about our governments then.

The problem I believe isn't only with the Iraqi's.

Anyone from anywhere with a grudge against America, and a gun, or just people from anywhere who want to kill for free, are flocking to the region to have a go at just that!

It's almost impossible to guard against.

And as you say, they have no experience in it.

I am all for a unilateral pull out Lew. They have billions in oil money, unfreeze it and let them use it to repair their country as they see fit. It's there country, not ours and they should be allowed to rule it as they see fit, not according to our dictates.

I do not believe you can force democracy on anyone. I don't believe keeping our people over there is doing anything other than setting them up as ducks in a shooting gallery.

-Colly