Existential world-building question

[TarnishedPenny]

I've been a scifi and fantasy fan my whole life, and my opinion is that history has proven that for most readers, it doesn't matter how dumb and shallow, or simply non-existent, your worldbuilding is, as long as you deliver with characters/plot. Readers will eat it all up.

Your thought process does you credit, but you are somewhat overthinking the whole thing. Most readers wouldn't even begin to think about the things most commenters mentioned.

What I'm saying is that it doesn't matter whether it's cats, armadillos, or kangaroos. Just make them interesting and relatable. Their evolutionary aspects are mostly irrelevant, especially if you take into account the knowledge of a typical reader.

Oh, I get that, truly. I’m just one of those folk who like to have dealt with loose ends. And it’s been on of those enjoyable Lit discussions, so it’s win-win.

 

[TheWritingGroup]

In support of New Caledonian crows, by the by, a number of animals have been known to pick up natural objects and use them as tools: a stick, a leaf, a rock. Humans and New Caledonian crows specifically make tools, carefully cutting them out and trimming. I can't think of anyone else reported as doing that.

Chimps. Bonobos. I believe orangutans.

Humans have been apex predator for what, 900,000 years or so? (Homo habilis hunted elephants and rhinos.) It's harder to prove, but erectus might also have hunted large game, going back millions of years.

The primary driver of higher cognition is widely thought to be in-species social competition, not improved prey capture (or plant gathering skill).

 

[Britva415]

is there any reason for a predator species to develop more intelligence than, say, current dogs and wolves, house-cats and lions?

Yes, if they aren't the apex predator. If they're vulnerable and underpowered compared to the existentially threatening ones, while simultaneously being the existential threat to other prey, theirself, they have to be smarter than both put together.

 

[TarnishedPenny]

Yes, if they aren't the apex predator. If they're vulnerable and underpowered compared to the existentially threatening ones, while simultaneously being the existential threat to other prey, theirself, they have to be smarter than both put together.

I see your point, yet most ecosystems, now and ancient, pretty well fill that description. There have been many apex predators over time and, while I am by not means a paleontologist, I'm unaware of the existence of the Big Kids pushing any lesser species towards dramatically higher intelligence. Admittedly, it would be hard to assess that fully.

 

[anthrodisiac]

I see your point, yet most ecosystems, now and ancient, pretty well fill that description. There have been many apex predators over time and, while I am by not means a paleontologist, I'm unaware of the existence of the Big Kids pushing any lesser species towards dramatically higher intelligence. Admittedly, it would be hard to assess that fully.

It requires a lot of different factors to push something to tool use. Competitive pressures from other predators and prey species (assuming a predatory-built intelligence, but most likely an omniverous one would be better suited, since it can aquire food from multiple types of sources, not just hunting), environmental pressures, morphological adaptions (result of evolution slowly building toward tool use), luck (a big factor not to be discounted), adaptability (species that are very niche are the first to die off, you need to be a generalist instead of a specialist), and probably some other things I haven't thought of, but those are the big factors in the type of pressures that would push you toward a tool using, highly intelligent species.

 

[Voboy]

I'm late to the party, I'm afraid, but surely a predator could spread beyond its range in search of new prey. Once it gets into that new environment, it could encounter a previously unknown creature that is even more powerful, in some ways, than the predator. They would then need to learn how to outcompete the new, more powerful predator if they wish to remain in their new, abundant range. One part of their solution might be the use of tools or traps.

I love this level of worldbuilding.

 

[Stanfield2025]

I'm unaware of the existence of the Big Kids pushing any lesser species towards dramatically higher intelligence. Admittedly, it would be hard to assess that fully.

Wolves and coyotes may or may not be candidates for this dynamic, but it is indeed hard to assess.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Hmm, well, there are several things you need to push something into building a society.

First, you need something that is social enough to teach others.

Next, you need something with the intelligence and physical ability to build tools.

Then, you need some sort of pressure to drive the species in question further and further towards that. A combination of things works better than any one thing. Like, competing with bigger predators, tackling difficult prey, seeking accolades from others of your kind, attracting mates with how clever they are.

Lastly, you need random assed mutations! Humans, have a defective jaw muscle gene, which allows us to grow bigger brains because our muscles aren't deforming our skulls. Humans have weird shoulders and hips, giving us a more upright posture, and more tool ready range of motion in our shoulders. Humans, are the only creature on the planet with a saddle joint. The saddle joint gives our thumbs greater range of motion and grip strength than any other creature with a thumb.

The RAM's are what will allow your critter to go from tool using people, to society building people. They don't have to be the same RAM's that human's have, depending on their environment for instance, loosing most of their body covering might not be a good idea.

 

[Stanfield2025]

Hmm, well, there are several things you need to push something into building a society.

First, you need something that is social enough to teach others.

Next, you need something with the intelligence and physical ability to build tools.

Then, you need some sort of pressure to drive the species in question further and further towards that. A combination of things works better than any one thing. Like, competing with bigger predators, tackling difficult prey, seeking accolades from others of your kind, attracting mates with how clever they are.

Lastly, you need random assed mutations! Humans, have a defective jaw muscle gene, which allows us to grow bigger brains because our muscles aren't deforming our skulls. Humans have weird shoulders and hips, giving us a more upright posture, and more tool ready range of motion in our shoulders. Humans, are the only creature on the planet with a saddle joint. The saddle joint gives our thumbs greater range of motion and grip strength than any other creature with a thumb.

Or you could have the species go the way of eusocial insects.

 

[liliput1]

*sniffs* So much speculation about my peoples...

All right, let's get one thing clear, velociraptors weren't actually that big. They were turkey-sized little fuckers, ankle-biting shits. But that actually might benefit you here.

One wouldn't expect the apex predator to become a tool-user. They already excel at what they do. But a species either forced from its current niche (human ancestors forced out of trees) or evolving ways of competing against more dominant predator species would put evolutionary pressure to evolve new strategies. One of those could possibly be higher intelligence and tool use. Is it likely? Pretty much impossible to say, but your story takes place on one of those few worlds where even the unlikely thing happened, because we know it happened at least once, so it's possible. But once you start the route of tool use, you aren't guaranteed anything, so what is required after that? Outcompeting the apex predator. It could be that the increased intelligence means they figure out if they take out the big predators, they can have everything for themselves. Or at least are so good at competing that it takes away a food source for the apex predators, until slowly the "weaker" smart species becomes the dominant species by dint of their intelligence and use of tools.

I believe I said “raptor” not “velociraptor”.

 

[anthrodisiac]

I believe I said “raptor” not “velociraptor”.

maybe like velociraptor.

You might not've, but the OP was about velos, freaky little buggers.

 

[NuclearFairy]

Or you could have the species go the way of eusocial insects.

The two are not mutually exclusive. XD