Excellent essay on slavery

[Netzach]

http://edgeliving.blogspot.com/2004_04_11_edgeliving_archive.html


I thought this was interesting and might whet some discussion. Kind of sums up ideas I've held about this whole thing for some time, that seem to be very much minority opinions.

 

[A Desert Rose]

http://edgeliving.blogspot.com/2004_04_11_edgeliving_archive.html


I thought this was interesting and might whet some discussion. Kind of sums up ideas I've held about this whole thing for some time, that seem to be very much minority opinions.

Makes a lot of sense to me.


If our community will stop defining “slaves” as a personality type, i think it will solve a lot of the issues...

I hadn't thought in this context before.

 

[Kajira Callista]

 

[Safphyre]

Very interesting ... but I still don;t really know what I think about it all ... I need some time to digest it all ...

 

[graceanne]

This reminds me of a different thread called Subs: a Question, where we were talking about this. I'm a submissive, but not all the time. I'm a CNA, a mother, and let me tell you I don't put up with shit from strangers. Being a sub doesn't make me a door mat, it's just that I get pleasure out of serving, being submissive to my husband.

 

[Netzach]

I am drawn to this article because I've always had issues with the idea of slavery being a passive endeavor. Having to parent someone who can't make a decision without my input is my idea of a very....crippling kind of burden. I need to know that I can make my own decisions, hell, there are decisions I think a slave should make *on my behalf* so I do not have to think about them.

If anything I want someone who is efficient, take charge, talented, and aggressive to a degree to manage details and to actually be useful to me.

A passive sex hole, while fun, really isn't that useful to me in the long run. When people wax romantic about their slavery it's often about the sense of being owned and controlled, not a sense of self control or service.

Service, as I require it, is not passive. It's not a readiness to suck my dick....that should be recreation not service.

Writing reminders for things I forget, polishing my shoes, keeping my social calendar...
personally I need a slave I can trust. I seek to relinquish control of certain things to hands I know are capable. If being charged with a decision makes someone throw her/his hands up and freak, that's not helpful to me. I don't feel a need to control every last detail of my life, let alone someone else's. I do feel a strong desire to be esteemed by the service, dedication, and work of someone who finds me worthy of such.

I like what marsha says about "personality typing" and I see this play a lot into our ideas of "shoulds" and "musts".

 

[graceanne]

That's perfect. It's like, in my house I take care of the money, the calender, the house, the shopping, etc. That doesn't make me any less a sub. I do those things cause my hubby HATES doing them. It's part of my service to him.

 

[boyb]

NETZ,

Actually, I think you're wrong.

What it sounds like you want, is a secretary, a maid and a butler, all in one.

If you get to fuck them also, that's a bonus!

 

[Netzach]

well, yes, I do want a fuckable servant. Problem?

*eg*

 

[Evaleastaristev]

NETZ,

Actually, I think you're wrong.

What it sounds like you want, is a secretary, a maid and a butler, all in one.

If you get to fuck them also, that's a bonus!

Actually, there's a whole subsect of submissives out there who's idea of service is the "fuckable secretary." Many good subs in that, who love to make sure that everything is running smoothly in their Master's household and life.

Quite an amazing group of people actually.

 

[Pure]

Hi N,

I don't agree with the author's main point, N, though I agree about the issue at hand: If you're slave/sub to A, that does not automatically mean you've slave/sub to B, and C (unless directed) and to every Tom Dick and Harry (unless it's decided to prostitue the slave).

I think I agree with boyb, what little I can make out.

The point was made by Diane Vera ages ago. Slave, as some define it, it pretty much like 'traditional wife.' And not necessarily anything more erotic. (As just as a wife can head the PTA, so a slave can be in 'leadership' in a group.)

It seems wrong to say that 'service' is just an occupation, as we know know it. Maybe like the British butlers for generations. But then there is a definite personality.

I don't see how you could say "X devotes her/himself to service or 'erotic service' to another/" withoug it having some implications for that person's personality. Yes, I do 'buy' the analogy with a priesthood; also I like the military analogy. BUT, if you interacted with military officer folks, you notice they're mostly Republican and have certain attitudes (like anti gay). The lower levels of military do, of course, order their wives around, but still that doesn't mean there isn't some personality traits of 'followers' even though they 'kick the cat.' IOW, a total service--though there are indivicual diffs to begin with-- leaves its mark,
And presumably 'slaves' so called, like it that way.

 

[Netzach]

Pure, I'm not buying it.

Look at McNamara and Kennedy, McNamara and LBJ, if you want a model of military upper echelons who would do anything in the name of service.

I never thought much of the Diane Vera thing, so trotting it out to debunk this isn't going to really change my mind.

However, I have notivced that this idea of the totally passive and helpless slave ideal shows up more in pan BDSM land than in GLBT Leather land, where the opposite is normally true, and this is where the author and her Master come out of.

That notion of slavery has always struck more of a chord with me and always will. Vi Johnson, in her memoirs, and I can't find the quote, has actually argued that she is a good slave *because* she is an aggressive person who does things independently.

 

[Kajira Callista]

why do ppl think slaves are helpless....how boring would that be for the Master/Mistress? It would be like having a baby to tend to IMHO. Maybe im wrong but i always assumed the thrill came from the ability to control someone who was not a zombie.

 

[Netzach]

The thrill also comes from knowing that this non-zombie like person is doing significant things and making significant choices and *dedicating every second of that work to you*

I'm not saying this is the only way...but I am saying it's getting very lost in the shuffle of how we talk about slavery...to me slavery is not "uber submissive" or "more submissive"

it's a dedication to the path of being owned and serving above all else. This can come out of an inherent personality trait, or it can be a decision, a vocation, a promise that you *bend* yourself into.

 

[Kajira Callista]

The thrill also comes from knowing that this non-zombie like person is doing significant things and making significant choices and *dedicating every second of that work to you*

I'm not saying this is the only way...but I am saying it's getting very lost in the shuffle of how we talk about slavery...to me slavery is not "uber submissive" or "more submissive"

it's a dedication to the path of being owned and serving above all else. This can come out of an inherent personality trait, or it can be a decision, a vocation, a promise that you *bend* yourself into.

funny, i dont find a slave portrayed as "more submissive" here...maybe just me and my at times extreme oversensitivity, but i find that many people seem to have the "oh no, not me ...never" feelings/thoughts about being a slave. Seems that "slave" is seen as a lower life form rather then a person who has made a choice to be beneath.

 

[Netzach]

I would have to agree with you about the "not me, oh no never." I don't think you are being overly sensitive. I think people secretly look down on others who would "put themselves in such a low position." Unfortunately.

I'll be the first to say I think I could go there with the right person. I've not met anyone who comes remotely close to what I'd consider the right person in BDSM spheres.

Perhaps my ideals are unrealistic there. It's not something I *hope* for in order to be happy, or think about often. I do know that I can be very motivated to go the extra mile by extraordinary people...I had a professor in school who I definitely felt a passionate *reverance* for, truly saw as..."Sensei." I don't expect to find this again in my lifetime, but I rule nothing out. If I were to encounter someone like that in the BDSM sphere I think I could and would moosh my orientation around to serve them and please them.

(Almost anyone who thinks they can make that happen has been the last person in the known universe for whom it would.)

kc, though, you just said something that a lot of the things I've read about slavery (not this essay, I mean other sources) would just CRINGE at..."a choice to be beneath"

I'm with you, I think it's that. Other people would insist you're born it, you can't choose, you can't resist the pull, you must have your weak and feeble will overpowered or you ruin your own life...a very Jizzo Jacob's kind of view, to use RR's favorite moniker for the guy.

I am calling bullshit.

I am saying that may be one way of doing it, and it's fine and it's valid, but it's not the only way or the best way.

 

[Kajira Callista]

My personal view is that i was not born a slave. I was born submissive, being a slave is a choice that your submission and need to serve helps you make. And i like the word beneath because i truly need to be there.

 

[Netzach]

Makes sense to me.

I thought you might dig this blog, kc.

I've got links to more on the subject, some really nice writing.

 

[Kajira Callista]

Makes sense to me.

I thought you might dig this blog, kc.

I've got links to more on the subject, some really nice writing.

I would love to see them if you have time to post them.
But right now im being pulled out of the chair and handed my bathing suit by a 5 and a 7 yr old.

 

[Netzach]

http://bondage.com/topic_id/102545/forums/topic.html

 

[graceanne]

funny, i dont find a slave portrayed as "more submissive" here...maybe just me and my at times extreme oversensitivity, but i find that many people seem to have the "oh no, not me ...never" feelings/thoughts about being a slave. Seems that "slave" is seen as a lower life form rather then a person who has made a choice to be beneath.

I want to go on record as saying that I think that the trust between a slave and her master is awesome. I could never do that. It must take great love, strength of will, and a joy in making others happy to do that. I personally could never trust someone that much. But then *shrugs* I'm young and growing. Maybe someday. I already trust my hubby more than I ever would have thought possible.

 

[Shadowsdream]

slavery is a space few fill....many wear the title few understand its depths.

It is neither better nor worse than submission and in My opinion a submissive cannot be *trained* into slavery but must slide into it almost unawares through the control of the right Mistress or Master.

I do believe in slave type personalities and also believe that without this personality type slavery would be next to impossible...even though it may never be attained due to circumstance and opportunity.

I always fought against owning a slave and I fought it with every fibre of My being. Owning a slave is far more work and the work is exhausting. They can neither take more pain nor humiliation than a submissive but they do have a higher need for control..constant control.

I like Netzach, find that the intellect and talents of My toys hold more value than doormats. Doormats will never lie before My feet nor under them. To be served as deeply and consistently as I expect takes a high intellect and creativity.

The title *slave* does cause many to look down on the one wearing the title. Sometimes justifiably so. Anyone that wears the title simply to signify that they go deeper than submissives and yet really have no concept of slavery bore Me to be sure.

They do not get My belief in them nor My respect for their honesty EVEN THOUGH I do realize that most don't understand that slavery is not a title but a state of being.

 

[fyrehardt]

Well, this is my first post on the forums, altho i have been lurking for quite some time. Something about this topic kind of struck me. my Sir is the first one who ever noticed/explored my submissive side with me. For many years now, i have been the dominant one in my household. i have 3 children and have always dated/lived with men who were dependant on me. Something in weak men seemed to attract me, but it took Sir's care and love to show me that the reason i was attracted to weak men was because i didn't trust anyone else to take care of me.

But nothing in my personality would ever point to me as a submissive. i run my household, i work as a manager at a fast food restaurant, i control my environment to the best of my abilities. i think that in my case, the choice to be submissive to my Sir is because i finally have someone i trust to let be responsible for me. He doesn't tell me what to do on a day to day basis, but everything i do i think about how proud He'll be of me for taking care of things efficiently and well.
Due to real life constraints, i can't be 24/7 with Him, but if i was i would love to make sure his household ran well...make sure He was fed and taken care of regularly. i am dominant to those around me, but for Him i will do anything He asks because i know it will be appreciated and i know He loves me and takes care of me, no matter what.

 

[catalina_francisco]

This is so due for a bump.

Catalina

 

[serijules]

Dang Catalina, I come back from a weekend of really "finding" my place in my slavery, decide to return to this forum because I can't find anywhere else where people even somewhat understand this notion, and you keep bumping up all these thought provoking threads!

Not complaining.

I don't have much to say on this one, but I will say that one of the reasons I never thought that "slave" fit me was because I am a very forward, blunt person sometimes. I am too shy to be a good leader, but I am not one to keep my opinions and expectations under my belt. For a long time, I had trouble balancing who I was with the role I chose to be because in my mind, they didn't really fit.

Once I figured out that my powerful personality is actually what gives me the ability to embrace a powerful role, it all kind of clicked in place. I am proud of the fact that I am able to serve someone and continue to learn to serve someone as completely as I do, and not have that affect or change who I always have been. I'm still Seri, just now I am also so much more. It's like I discovered another part of myself and as Shadows' said, eased into it under the hand of someone who had a better understanding of it than I did myself. Dawnie saw it before I did, and she's the one that will continue to guide me into this role.

One of my most favourite things about being a slave is that trust that someone mentioned. Dawnie trusts me with her passwords, her bank accounts, her credit cards and log ins and privacy. She can ask me to check for something in her email and know I won't abuse that by reading or looking anywhere I wasn't invited. She can trust me to do assignments for her without checking them over as she knows I will have them done right. She can give me an order and not need "proof" that it was done properly unless it entertains her to see the results, but it isn't necessary for trust reasons. I trust her with the same details. That is amazing to me. I would have been uncomfortable with that level of trust with any of my previous partners. With Dawnie, as her slave, it's an enpowering thing. She obviously thinks me to be a very strong, capable, trustworthy person trusting me with such information and knowing that even if for some reason we parted ways, she wouldn't have to worry about changing that information.

I agree that slavery is not a deeper form of submission, it's a different form of submission. For myself, the role takes me to deeper places and affects me in more profound ways, but thats because of the person that brings it out in me, the path that led me here and the training that allows me to stay here...not because of the role itself, if that makes sense. It's such a personal journey that it's kind of absurd to use a title to say something is deeper or better than another. Different strokes for different folks. It's all in the journey.