Etiquette query

[fifty5]

I read this story (Sharing Catherine by coolomon) and was intrigued by the idea of reading the story retold by the eponymous heroine...

So I PMed the author, attaching a few paras of what I'd write if I were doing it.

That was long enough ago for me to finish my version (of the first half) and I still haven't had any acknowledgement.

If I don't get a reply, what's the etiquette about posting my version? The story is 100% his, but the rewrite is all mine. As I understand copyright law, that means I'm legal, but I'd like to be polite as well.

Any thoughts?

And, assuming I do go ahead, is there anyone kind enough to read my version (and given the derivation, they'd also need to read the original too to pick up any discrepancies) and comment before I post it?

Thanks,

 

[LadyCibelle]

I read this story (Sharing Catherine by coolomon) and was intrigued by the idea of reading the story retold by the eponymous heroine...

So I PMed the author, attaching a few paras of what I'd write if I were doing it.

That was long enough ago for me to finish my version (of the first half) and I still haven't had any acknowledgement.

If I don't get a reply, what's the etiquette about posting my version? The story is 100% his, but the rewrite is all mine. As I understand copyright law, that means I'm legal, but I'd like to be polite as well.

Any thoughts?

And, assuming I do go ahead, is there anyone kind enough to read my version (and given the derivation, they'd also need to read the original too to pick up any discrepancies) and comment before I post it?

Thanks,

I don't know about anybody else's opinion but I'll give you mine. You could either post your story acknowledging the author and stating you contacted him/her asking for authorisation to post your version and never received it or you could try to contact the author once again and wait some more and then, if you don't receive a reply to your next request, post it with the aformentionned acknowledgment.

 

[fifty5]

I don't know about anybody else's opinion but I'll give you mine. You could either post your story acknowledging the author and stating you contacted him/her asking for authorisation to post your version and never received it or you could try to contact the author once again and wait some more and then, if you don't receive a reply to your next request, post it with the aformentionned acknowledgment.

That was my opinion. Knowing it is shared by at least one other is reassuring.

Thanks

 

[kbate]

It is wrong to post another persons work - or work directly derived from that persons work without obtaining permission. A rewrite is a copyright violation and the only one I have seen on Lit was pulled when the management was told of the situation.

I would try to contact the author again, or keep the rewrite to myself. I consider a copyright one of the most sacred items on the planet.

You could post with a clear author's note:

This story is an unauthorised rewrite of "xxxxxxx" by The WRiter. I have changed _____ because _______.


But for me - it is still not right without permission.

 

[J.Q. Hack]

Etiquette Query

I'd suggest trying to recontact the original author again and give it sometime. If you do decide to publish the story mention your inspiration and source. As long as you haven't wholesale lifted passages from the other story or phrasing or wording you should be fine. Isn't this really sort of a similar thing that the guy who wrote "Wicked" did with "The Wizard of Oz" and other fairy tales? This is only a suggestion and some proffered advice.

However, I can see how some would take this as a form of plagirism since the creation of the characters are a sort of literary and intellectual property.

I guess you have to weigh these two perspectives for yourself. (shrugs shoulders)

J.Q.

 

[Guest]

I read this story (Sharing Catherine by coolomon) and was intrigued by the idea of reading the story retold by the eponymous heroine...

So I PMed the author, attaching a few paras of what I'd write if I were doing it.

That was long enough ago for me to finish my version (of the first half) and I still haven't had any acknowledgement.

If I don't get a reply, what's the etiquette about posting my version? The story is 100% his, but the rewrite is all mine. As I understand copyright law, that means I'm legal, but I'd like to be polite as well.

Any thoughts?

And, assuming I do go ahead, is there anyone kind enough to read my version (and given the derivation, they'd also need to read the original too to pick up any discrepancies) and comment before I post it?

Thanks,

_______

We can all be inspired by other works to energize and invigorate our muses, but it should be done to create something brand new and fresh and very, very different.

If for no other reason you'd go ahead and publish this without the permission of the original author, you are, in effect, plagiarizing the work of a fellow Lit writer--and for me, that just isn't right at all.

And then I'd guess I'd have to ask you something, fifty5 . . . doesn't what you're thinking of doing "bother" you in the least?

 

[fifty5]

I just wish the guy would answer...

Unfortunately, he's not allowing email messages, so the only route is via PM.

He's only ever posted twice to the forums; January and September 2005, plus 13 stories: 5 in 2003, starting February; none in '04; 6 in '05; and 2 this year, January and April.

The story line is almost entirely his, but presented from the pov of a different character (the exceptions are when the two characters aren't together). The words, except for bits of quoted speech (when the two are together, so quoting the same speach - 156 words out of 6440) entirely mine.

I've no wish to claim credit for his work, or to abuse his copyright in any way at all, but, apart from the events, mine is very different, dealing with the thoughts and motivation of the other character (a woman that takes on 5 new men plus her husband), while his tells the tale as seen by one of the 5. Since both are written in the 1st person, the pov makes significant differences.

Is anyone brave enough to read them? I mean, if mine isn't worth posting, the problem goes away...

 

[fifty5]

And then I'd guess I'd have to ask you something, fifty5 . . . doesn't what you're thinking of doing "bother" you in the least?

Baldly, no it doesn't. The same events seen and reported by different people usually are "very, very different" and what goes on in a different head can indeed be "new and fresh".

But that's in principle. In practice, whether I've achieved that is much more open to question!

What I really hoped for was to discuss all this with coolomon himself - I actually hope he'd like the retelling, but if not I'd willingly accept his refusal. The trouble is that I can't get in touch with him.

Which is the reason I'm asking in here asking for someone to read the thing. I need a second opinion about whether I have in fact written something new, different and fresh. I know that's precisely what I tried to do, but I don't know if I've succeded. If I haven't, the delete button is ready.

 

[Guest]

I just wish the guy would answer...

Unfortunately, he's not allowing email messages, so the only route is via PM.

He's only ever posted twice to the forums; January and September 2005, plus 13 stories: 5 in 2003, starting February; none in '04; 6 in '05; and 2 this year, January and April.

The story line is almost entirely his, but presented from the pov of a different character (the exceptions are when the two characters aren't together). The words, except for bits of quoted speech (when the two are together, so quoting the same speach - 156 words out of 6440) entirely mine.

I've no wish to claim credit for his work, or to abuse his copyright in any way at all, but, apart from the events, mine is very different, dealing with the thoughts and motivation of the other character (a woman that takes on 5 new men plus her husband), while his tells the tale as seen by one of the 5. Since both are written in the 1st person, the pov makes significant differences.

Is anyone brave enough to read them? I mean, if mine isn't worth posting, the problem goes away...

____________

But it's not what we think . . . it's what the original author thinks, as anyone else wishing to re-quote or re-use another person's work. If you don't get permission from the original author, the problem goes away--you can't publish!

Fifty5, no matter how hard you think this may be on you, it will be much harder for the original creator of the work to see a version of his/her work published without his/her permission. In addition, the author "owes" you no response to your suggestion (especially if he/she cannot believe you would even suggest such a thing!).

My suggestion to you is to move away from this and start fresh with a brand new idea, work your story, and then publish it. That feat, to create something from nothing, should be something you can be proud of.

 

[fifty5]

But it's not what we think . . . it's what the original author thinks, as anyone else wishing to re-quote or re-use another person's work. If you don't get permission from the original author, the problem goes away--you can't publish!

Not that simple, Manx. If it were, all dead authors would be protected for ever, while in fact it's the reverse (after the relevant number of years).

Incidentally, before you reply quite so venomously again, please note that I haven't published...

But thanks for your opinion anyway.

 

[snooper]

What I really hoped for was to discuss all this with coolomon himself - I actually hope he'd like the retelling, but if not I'd willingly accept his refusal. The trouble is that I can't get in touch with him.

The obvious question is whether cooolomon has actually read your PMs. If so, then take silence for assent. If not then you need to go via another route.

If you were to PM Laurel about this, the "powers that be" have an email address for everyone, and may well be willing to forward a message. I certainly think you have good reason to contact this author.

As to the basic problem, it is a moot point where an "old" idea stops and "new" writing starts. In the limit "boy meets girl, they fall in love, their families object, it all ends in tears" would be off limits because Shakespeare wrote Romeo and Juliet. Clearly that is nonsense, but using (say) Buffy and Willow in a threesome with Spike without even seeking permission is certainly plagiarism, while using Sarah Michelle Gellar and Alyson Hannigan in a threesome with James Marsters is not.

 

[LadyCibelle]

I just wish the guy would answer...

Unfortunately, he's not allowing email messages, so the only route is via PM.

He's only ever posted twice to the forums; January and September 2005, plus 13 stories: 5 in 2003, starting February; none in '04; 6 in '05; and 2 this year, January and April.

The story line is almost entirely his, but presented from the pov of a different character (the exceptions are when the two characters aren't together). The words, except for bits of quoted speech (when the two are together, so quoting the same speach - 156 words out of 6440) entirely mine.

I've no wish to claim credit for his work, or to abuse his copyright in any way at all, but, apart from the events, mine is very different, dealing with the thoughts and motivation of the other character (a woman that takes on 5 new men plus her husband), while his tells the tale as seen by one of the 5. Since both are written in the 1st person, the pov makes significant differences.

Is anyone brave enough to read them? I mean, if mine isn't worth posting, the problem goes away...

Funnily enough when I read your first post that's exactly how I had read it. That is was YOUR words and not the ones of the original writer that's why I told you to simply acknowledge his work and to let it go like that.

I still see nothing wrong in doing so and I stand behind you 100%.

Furthermore, I'm way over my head in editing but if you're not in a rush I'd be willing to look at both stories and tell you my honest opinion.

 

[Guest]

Not that simple, Manx. If it were, all dead authors would be protected for ever, while in fact it's the reverse (after the relevant number of years).

Incidentally, before you reply quite so venomously again, please note that I haven't published...

But thanks for your opinion anyway.

_________

Well, first, cooloman stopped posting only a year or so ago... not centuries. Yes, he may in fact no longer actively post or even write here, but there are a lot of other members that don't make Lit a daily hobby.

And venomous? Nah... I'd say I have a very strong opinion on this matter. I don't know you from Adam... I have no axe to grind with you, fifty5. You did bring this forward out of genuine courtesy, to discuss an issue you felt important--and it is. If I offended, I apologize, and I do appreciate your thoughtful responses to these posts.

It's likely a moot point anyway, unless Laurel, for some reason beyond imagination, takes an interest in this discussion and actually has the time to read cooloman's story and compare it to yours to make a decision whether to post or not.

The scenario that interests me is if you go ahead and publish, and cooloman decides to come out of the woodwork in the not-to-distant future, and somehow stumbles on your story (assuming you hadn't been able to contact him to get his consent), and he reads it and feels injured by it, I believe he has standing to appeal to Laurel for its removal.

The issue I see is your stated intent to you re-use his ideas--duplication of words, and style, and dialogue and POV aside-- ("... the story line is almost entirely his...") that could still be construed as plagiarizing.

Nevertheless, this has been a good discussion, initiated freely by you, and worthy of revisiting, since it touches an issue near and dear to many a Lit author's heart.

I sincerely wish you the best of luck to you in your future writing and submissions.

No hard feelings?

Manxy

 

[fifty5]

No hard feelings?

Manxy

Not any more. Earlier posts suggested you might have thought I was just trying to exploit - you latest doesn't. Thanks for that.

I can wait...

 

[M-Y-Erotica]

I certainly understand fifty5's position. One of my stories was directly inspired by another one on Lit. I liked the basic idea and so wanted to do it again but with my own style. The good news for me is that I emailed the author and within days they said it was just fine, and I was able to thank them directly at the top of my story.

I think a lot of this does depend upon just how much re-writing you did. I am not sure I really needed permission in the end, because other than taking a male and female character of certain ethnicities and having them be neighbors and fall in love, every single word was mine. I never actually finished the first author's story or ever read it a second time while writing. What was left then was such a basic plot that no one owns it. If you have taken the basic situation - 5 men and a woman is it? - and written a new story, then you're probably good, no matter what. No one owns that. If you actually reduplicate scenes, albeit written from someone else's perspective, then I think you need permission.

You could maybe get away with a simple acknowledgement if you only borrowed the bare bones. For instance, one scene involves, I don't know, the woman, three men, and fun with honey. If that's all you take and then make up every word said and what's done with the honey, then you may be good. But if you recreate scene by scene from someone else's perspective, and if you take more than one line of dialogue tops, then this needs permission.

The thing about Wicked is I don't think L. Frank Baum's works are under copyright anymore, so they are public domain. You can rewrite them any way you want. Wicked works exactly because it is a rewriting of The Wizard of Oz. If your story works exactly because it is a fascinating rewrite of this other story, then you are stuck. You need permission. Hopefully, this person will drop by and give it to you. (Actually, I think technically Lit authors don't have legal copyright, but they do have ownership, which is all that is necessary for these issues. My understanding is that ownership is all that is necessary to prove idea theft, but that copyright is critical if you wish to seek legal damages. Also, it is easier to prove ownership if you have copyright legally filed already.)

 

[snooper]

... I don't think L. Frank Baum's works are under copyright anymore, ...

Since he died in 1919, and is not Sir J.M.Barrie, his works are all out of copyright, since 70 years is the maximum in any country in the world (except for the aforementioned J.M.Barrie).

That said, adaptations of his works are still in copyright, just as the Lord's Prayer in the current Church of England liturgy is copyright by the US Christian Board of Finance!

 

[Guest]

.
.
.Actually, I think technically Lit authors don't have legal copyright, but they do have ownership, which is all that is necessary for these issues. My understanding is that ownership is all that is necessary to prove idea theft, but that copyright is critical if you wish to seek legal damages. Also, it is easier to prove ownership if you have copyright legally filed already.

______

No and yes.

Lit authors absolutely do have immediate copyright protection, made "legal" by U.S. federal statute the date our works are published by Lit for the net. This satisfies the U.S. statute we've made available to the public an original literary work in "fixed form," in the case, a Lit computer server hard disk.

Now, with that said, I do agree that we, as individual Lit authors, don't have much of a leg to stand on to sue another for monetary damages for re-publishing our stories without consent unless we made a concious effort to pay a small fee to register our porn with the U.S. Copyright Office! It's particularly hurtful if the offending party intends to profit from it.

Not is all lost, however, since the site owners at Lit do diligently defend our stories (published by them non-exclusively) in the public domain, and can make it very difficult on the offending party, especially another internet site, that appreciates the legal implications if the unauthorized re-publication is not removed (ever see Laurel in action when we've discovered our smut stolen by other websites?). That's the best that can happen for us, who use Lit as a free publication site (I'd say that's a pretty damn good deal).

Below are two very good summary articles from lawyers on the topic of copyright. For the purposes of my discussion on this thread, please note the treatment (and importance) given by these authors getting permission from the original author before one re-publishes.

Claire E. White (basic copyright concepts for writers) http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/sept97/cew2.htm

and

Thomas G. Field, Jr. (e-mail and web page hostings) http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/copynet.htm

Have a good one.

Manxy

 

[snooper]

______

No and yes.

Lit authors absolutely do have immediate copyright protection, made "legal" by U.S. federal statute the date our works are published by Lit for the net. This satisfies the U.S. statute we've made available to the public an original literary work in "fixed form," in the case, a Lit computer server hard disk.

Now, with that said, I do agree that we, as individual Lit authors, don't have much of a leg to stand on to sue another for monetary damages for re-publishing our stories without consent unless we made a concious effort to pay a small fee to register our porn with the U.S. Copyright Office! It's particularly hurtful if the offending party intends to profit from it.

Not is all lost, however, since the site owners at Lit do diligently defend our stories (published by them non-exclusively) in the public domain, and can make it very difficult on the offending party, especially another internet site, that appreciates the legal implications if the unauthorized re-publication is not removed (ever see Laurel in action when we've discovered our smut stolen by other websites?). That's the best that can happen for us, who use Lit as a free publication site (I'd say that's a pretty damn good deal).

Below are two very good summary articles from lawyers on the topic of copyright. For the purposes of my discussion on this thread, please note the treatment (and importance) given by these authors getting permission from the original author before one re-publishes.

Claire E. White (basic copyright concepts for writers) http://www.writerswrite.com/journal/sept97/cew2.htm

and

Thomas G. Field, Jr. (e-mail and web page hostings) http://www.piercelaw.edu/tfield/copynet.htm

Have a good one.

Manxy

CAUTION:
US law does not apply everywhere in the world and the rules are different for authors resident elsewhere.

Just one aspect of that is where Lit's server hard discs actually are; in many countries that is where you have published and therefore the copyright law of that country interacts with the copyright law where the author is, and copyright law where the thief is, and copyright law where the thief publishes.

And you thought sex was complicated ...

 

[Guest]

CAUTION:
US law does not apply everywhere in the world and the rules are different for authors resident elsewhere.

Just one aspect of that is where Lit's server hard discs actually are; in many countries that is where you have published and therefore the copyright law of that country interacts with the copyright law where the author is, and copyright law where the thief is, and copyright law where the thief publishes.

And you thought sex was complicated ...

________

Complicated?

Complicated??

It's fuckin' mind-numbing beyond rational thought.

And what about the dynamics of treaties (if any), fair use, public domain interpretation, intellectual property rights, length of copyright from country to country, etc., etc., etc., all which can be interpreted or codified or applied differently, country to county.

Of course, my intent was not to say US law extends beyond our borders. But what is useful for foreigners intending to publish in the USA, and on this site, and particularly if the country has a treaty with the USA, the USA law would extend to the protection of those written works, if not necessarily the individual. Yes, I've assumed Lit's servers are in the US (at least two of the domains are registered in California and Nevada). It's a fair assumption the works reside on the databases there, therefore Lit stories are published in the USA (otherwise, none of the copyright protection Lit claims for itself or extends to its authors makes any sense).

Beyond that, the complexities of individual litigation across borders is a topic I would reserve for the lawyers (besides, I now have a headache).






(Sex isn't complicated... relationships are.)

 

[snooper]

... Yes, I've assumed Lit's servers are in the US (at least two of the domains are registered in California and Nevada). ...

I know of a company registered in the Cayman Islands, run from the UK, techie work done in India, mainframes in Thailand and Canada, with no office space whatever. Cayman Islands chosen for low tax, UK for preference, India for cheap skilled people, Thailand and Canada for price and security duplication, and who needs an office? Any web organisation could be like that.

 

[fifty5]

I'm so glad to say that Coolomon and co have replied - and are currently reading my take on his plot.

Either I'll get explicit permission or an explicit refusal, so it's no longer a matter for debate.

I'll let you know the outcome.