Eradicate all ideas from poetry

[letterman999]

O

Sorry to have intruded.

 

[bogusagain]

Surely to write a poem without ideas is impossible because to write a poem without ideas is an idea in itself.


aesthetics and technique
presented with an intellectual air
like the void in Giacometti’s hands
alludes to there being something there
something solid and fully formed
but all there is, is rarefied air.

I think this deserves an image of the great man's work.

 

[butters]

there're all manner of poetry types, embodying a dazzling (or boring, depending on your outlook) array of gimmicks, styles, leaps of imagination....

having said that, poetry without imagery/images seems dull stuff to my tastes, and the idea of poetry without any ideas seems a case of art for art's sake, dry to the aesthetics and all about trying to be clever with words instead of allowing the poem's voice to speak. why not let's write poetry that contains no poetry?

it's not for me to suggest that people shouldn't be experimental, but - call me a stick in the mud - i like to find some meat on the poetic plate and not just merely smears of some reduced to almost nothing pretty coloured jous with a crispy fried wafer-thin twirl of something i cannot identify.

 

[bronzeage]

there're all manner of poetry types, embodying a dazzling (or boring, depending on your outlook) array of gimmicks, styles, leaps of imagination....

having said that, poetry without imagery/images seems dull stuff to my tastes, and the idea of poetry without any ideas seems a case of art for art's sake, dry to the aesthetics and all about trying to be clever with words instead of allowing the poem's voice to speak. why not let's write poetry that contains no poetry?

it's not for me to suggest that people shouldn't be experimental, but - call me a stick in the mud - i like to find some meat on the poetic plate and not just merely smears of some reduced to almost nothing pretty coloured jous with a crispy fried wafer-thin twirl of something i cannot identify.

Meat on the plate,
the biomass of a lifetime
reduced to one meal,
seasoned by every smile, frown, laugh or tear,
bitter, sweet, salt or sour,
I'll taste and know it is food,
for we are made from the meat of others
and will be meet for others,
but don't leave me at the table,
fork pulled back to stare at the plate
to ask, "What is this shit?"

 

[Angeline]

Poetry without ideas is like a painting that doesn't represent anything. I suppose such a painting could be produced, just as I could vomit forth a bunch of words that are all unrelated to each other. Some folks would even call those things art but I would not.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

Here's the difference, though.

I tell you the idea that you should be thinking and debate this until you agree or switch the channel (Rhetorical Posturing).

I provoke your responses through careful word choice and image and many other possible methods (Poetry).

 

[Tzara]

Sorry, Angie, I'm going to pick on your statement (though I hope not in a mean way):

Poetry without ideas is like a painting that doesn't represent anything. I suppose such a painting could be produced, just as I could vomit forth a bunch of words that are all unrelated to each other. Some folks would even call those things art but I would not.

Unfortunately, I don't know what the original post said.

Tsk, tsk, Letterman—You are too sensitive. Heck, if you're part of a university community, you'll have to be more forward than this.

I'm not even going off on something like sound poetry or concrete poetry as easy counterarguments. I want to talk about haiku. Here, Bashō:

The old pond--
a frog jumps in,
sound of water.

[Trans. Robert Hass]​

Where is idea in this poem? Is it in the poem itself, or in the reader's interpretation of it?

Sorry, I see only image. Convince me I'm wrong.

 

[Angeline]

Sorry, Angie, I'm going to pick on your statement (though I hope not in a mean way): Unfortunately, I don't know what the original post said.

Tsk, tsk, Letterman—You are too sensitive. Heck, if you're part of a university community, you'll have to be more forward than this.

I'm not even going off on something like sound poetry or concrete poetry as easy counterarguments. I want to talk about haiku. Here, Bashō:

The old pond--
a frog jumps in,
sound of water.

[Trans. Robert Hass]​

Where is idea in this poem? Is it in the poem itself, or in the reader's interpretation of it?

Sorry, I see only image. Convince me I'm wrong.

It may not be about ideas but there is an idea to present an image (and evoke a sound in the reader's imagination). I've read a lot of what is called "concrete poetry," and though I find much of it interesting or funny or shocking, I usually don't see it as especially artistic or poetic. I wouldn't try to convince anyone else of that though as it's my subjective opinion.

 

[greenmountaineer]

Sorry, Angie, I'm going to pick on your statement (though I hope not in a mean way): Unfortunately, I don't know what the original post said.

Tsk, tsk, Letterman—You are too sensitive. Heck, if you're part of a university community, you'll have to be more forward than this.

I'm not even going off on something like sound poetry or concrete poetry as easy counterarguments. I want to talk about haiku. Here, Bashō:

The old pond--
a frog jumps in,
sound of water.

[Trans. Robert Hass]​

Where is idea in this poem? Is it in the poem itself, or in the reader's interpretation of it?

Sorry, I see only image. Convince me I'm wrong.

I see this differently, Tzara. When I see a verb or verb phrase (jumps in) it stirs my imagination. I think "old pond" and connect it with "water," symbolic with new life (e.g. baptism). I have an idea that something is happening.

I'm no expert on haikus, nor much care for them to be honest, but some that I've read have gerunds. Their "ing's" suggest to me a state of being or image whereas subject-verb in a poem is becoming or action, which I think prompts one to wonder what's happening or imagine it.

Pound's "In a Station in the Metro," I think, is an example of just an image:

The apparition of these faces in the crowd; *
Petals on a wet, black bough. *

However, for reasons I mentioned and perhaps the novelty of the haiku form itself which I think Pound introduced to the West in any widespread way because of his reputation, it still doesn't do much for me as poetry. And I think it's because it's just an image. Others may be quite content with that.

 

[PandoraGlitters]

To love haiku, one must feast upon suggestion. The taste of something on the air is breakfast.

 

[Tzara]

It may not be about ideas but there is an idea to present an image (and evoke a sound in the reader's imagination).

Well, yes, of course. But that is the poet's idea, not something in the poem itself.

I've read a lot of what is called "concrete poetry," and though I find much of it interesting or funny or shocking, I usually don't see it as especially artistic or poetic. I wouldn't try to convince anyone else of that though as it's my subjective opinion.

I don't really think of it as essentially poetic either. More musical or visual than what I normally think of as poetry, though it gives one an easy argument about "idea in poetry."

Devolves into the "what is poetry" discussion, which never goes anywhere.

 

[Tzara]

I see this differently, Tzara. When I see a verb or verb phrase (jumps in) it stirs my imagination. I think "old pond" and connect it with "water," symbolic with new life (e.g. baptism). I have an idea that something is happening.

Yes, gm, of course you do. That, I think, is the poet's intent. But what I meant was that there is no idea in the poem itself--the poem is pure image (well, at least I think so) and whatever idea that emerges from reading it is birthed from the reader's consciousness, not from the poem. The poem presents an image, which may (and perhaps should) invoke in the reader an experience and idea.

Golly. I'd sure appreciate one of our more knowledgeable poets on Asian poetry would step in right now (Hey! Senna Jawa, jthserra, I am talking to both of you!) and either pat me on the head for being stupid or explain why I might be something like right for a change.

It would be nice to be right for a change. My being so often aggressively wrong gets tiresome.

I'm no expert on haikus, nor much care for them to be honest, but some that I've read have gerunds. Their "ing's" suggest to me a state of being or image whereas subject-verb in a poem is becoming or action, which I think prompts one to wonder what's happening or imagine it.

Not all "ing" words are gerunds. A gerund is a verbal that functions as a noun (e.g., Swimming is my favorite sport.) Verbals can also be adjectives (The swimming boy looked like a dolphin.).

That either form appears with any frequency in a haiku translation is a bit surprising to me, since haikus are normally (at least the ones I've read) stripped to the bone in terms of descriptive words. Nouns, verbs, and, way sparingly, adjectives.

Perhaps you could cite one?

Pound's "In a Station in the Metro," I think, is an example of just an image:

The apparition of these faces in the crowd; *
Petals on a wet, black bough. *

However, for reasons I mentioned and perhaps the novelty of the haiku form itself which I think Pound introduced to the West in any widespread way because of his reputation, it still doesn't do much for me as poetry. And I think it's because it's just an image. Others may be quite content with that.

I think this poem was written when Pound was in his Imagiste mode. I think of it as almost like a scholarly example of something, rather than poem. I have mixed feeling about it as a poem, actually.

Pound was a polemicist. This poem is a polemic.

 

[bogusagain]

Sorry, Angie, I'm going to pick on your statement (though I hope not in a mean

I'm not even going off on something like sound poetry or concrete poetry as easy counterarguments. I want to talk about haiku. Here, Bashō:

The old pond--
a frog jumps in,
sound of water.

[Trans. Robert Hass]​

Where is idea in this poem? Is it in the poem itself, or in the reader's interpretation of it?

Sorry, I see only image. Convince me I'm wrong.

Interesting point, is the idea in the poem or is the poem the idea itself. I'm sure you are aware of this ongoing schism in the visual arts between conceptual art v tradional craft based art.

The problem with using a haiku as an example is that they aren't really translatable because the poem not only describes the images illustrated by the words but the image illustrated refers back to Japanese symbols(letters) that make up the poem. There is a game being played with concepts that is literally lost in translation. One of the reasons I suspect a similar form was not created in the west.

However, I think I'm in agreement with you with concrete poetry where the poem is the intellectual idea and the content of the poem, has no concepts to communicate other than itself. Similarly, sound poetry.

Thought provoking but ultimately something that provokes thought loops looping back on themselves!

 

[Angeline]

Well, yes, of course. But that is the poet's idea, not something in the poem itself.

If I recognize it when I read the poem, it's in the poem. But I do understand that you're saying this is not a narrative poem; it is not telling the reader anything (e.g., ideas).

I don't really think of it as essentially poetic either. More musical or visual than what I normally think of as poetry, though it gives one an easy argument about "idea in poetry."

Devolves into the "what is poetry" discussion, which never goes anywhere.

If I had a nickel for every time I'd seen that here... Uh huh.

 

[Tzara]

Thought provoking but ultimately something that provokes thought loops looping back on themselves!

Yeah. I think I'm probably just being contentious. To no purpose.

 

[Tzara]

If I had a nickel for every time I'd seen that here... Uh huh.

That doesn't sounds as though you'd like me to start a new "What is poetry?" thread.

 

[mynameisben]

Poetry without ideas is like

 

[Angeline]

That doesn't sounds as though you'd like me to start a new "What is poetry?" thread.

Well er not really though you know how I am: if you did I'd prolly be in it with an opinion.

 

[Tzara]

Poetry without ideas is like

That seems a rather open-ended comment.

 

[Angeline]

Poetry without ideas is like

a foot without a shoe?

a day without sunshine?

the best poem ever?

mad libs?

 

[butters]

That seems a rather open-ended comment.

it read it as 'is like nothingness' a hole, a gap, a space/void/non-ness

 

[mynameisben]

it read it as 'is like nothingness' a hole, a gap, a space/void/non-ness

You and me both.

 

[letterman999]

Here's a digest of my original post.
I neither advocate 'ideas,' nor deny
them. I know little about it.
##

I have noted only recently that JC Ransom's
A Note On Ontology steals from George Moore's
The Introduction to an Anthology of Pure Poetry.

And Robert Penn Warren took up the purities in
poetry and adding 'impurities'-- this in his
Kenyon Review article, Spring, ten years after
Moore's death.

I learned a new word-- dinglichkeit, that is,
an intentional act to exterminate all idea from
poetry.

(My comment)

Such eradication leaves poetry to stand on cross-
images and dissociation and often reference to
things related only by propinquity and psychic
links.

l

 

[bogusagain]

Such eradication leaves poetry to stand on cross-
images and dissociation and often reference to
things related only by propinquity and psychic
links.

l

What does that mean?

Is it the poetry equivalent of what is known in the art world as artspeak? Which basically means pseudo-intellectual diarrhoea written by people who want to be artists but don't have the ability to be artists so become theorists on art, usurping the artists's means of communication for their own ends.

If Robert Penn Warren really believes in the poetry he advocates and I'm not sure what he is saying (maybe my education was somewhat limited), he should write poetry in such a way, instead of peddling pedantry.

BTW letterman. Don't get sensitive and storm off, thinking you are not wanted around. You write some stimulating posts, well worth the discussion but you have to accept robust replies if you want to chew the cud.

 

[letterman999]

Ok ... I admit to my skitishness.

I scare easily, being chased around the
house by my older girl cousins when I
was 14.

And then there was that married lady,
sitting next, who, during French class
at college, like to run her shoe up my
levied leg, while looking straight ahead
toward the blackboard.

And then the lady Colonel at Lackland AFB
and I only a pre-flight lieutenant waiting
for assignment.

It's been quite exhausting ...

l999