Epicticus

[jomar]

Epictitus

In 55 AD Epicticus said, "People are disturbed not by what happens, but by their opinions of things that happen."

Your thoughts?

(Thanks to FatDino for the Aristotle quote in her signature line.)


(Edit to change title to the more familiar spelling.)

 

[Pure]

i think you mean epictetus. why not post some exerpts. i bet it's public domain.

 

[FatDino]

In 55 AD Epicticus said, "People are disturbed not by what happens, but by their opinions of things that happen."

Your thoughts?

(Thanks to FatDino for the Aristotle quote in her signature line.)

You're quite welcome

On the 7:00 PM news in Japan.

Another suicide bomb went off in Iraq....blah blah blah....over 3000 American troops have died...blah blah blah...over $200 billion has been spent...blah blah blah...

The husband: Well, their national debt is not yet paid, now they're spending their money on some country most of them don't even know where it is on the map. This will raise the gas price up and...

The wife: Honey, can you please not talk about politics and economics right now. I'm having a headache.

The baby: Daddy, switch the channel, I want to see cartoons.

Hope my little story can be classified as my "thoughts".

 

[Liar]

In 55 AD Epicticus said, "People are disturbed not by what happens, but by their opinions of things that happen."

Your thoughts?

We can't be disturbed by what happens, because all we know are our perceptions of what happens. And all perception is colored by presupposition, culture, ideology and, ulimately, opinion.

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Without googling, if memory serves correctly, Epictetus was a Greek, Stoic phylosopher who was a roman slave. I read him years ago and found him rather dreary.

The line you quote is from a much longer dialogue. I agree with that one line to the extent that he meant it in the original - with respect to political actions taken by a governing body. In other cases, it doesn't always hold true.

 

[Pure]

link

to one famous text of Epictetus, 'enchiridion'

http://classics.mit.edu/Epictetus/epicench.html

 

[only_more_so]

In 55 AD Epicticus said, "People are disturbed not by what happens, but by their opinions of things that happen."

Your thoughts?

(Thanks to FatDino for the Aristotle quote in her signature line.)

I don't know. If I were shot by somebody, I would be disturbed by what happened, my opinion hardly matters to me at that point.

 

[Liar]

I don't know. If I were shot by somebody, I would be disturbed by what happened, my opinion hardly matters to me at that point.

Unless you wanted to die.

 

[jomar]

i think you mean epictetus. why not post some exerpts. i bet it's public domain.

Odd that I've seen it both ways.

Epictetus: Men are disturbed not by things, but by the view which they take of them.

 

[jomar]

The idea is that "it's not what happens to us that 'makes' us feel the way we do, but what we think about what happens to us that's the real issue underlying our feelings." Does that concept play an active role in the way you process your life events, both positive and negative?

 

[oggbashan]

More quotes from Epictetus

First say to yourself what you would be; and then do what you have to do.

The materials of action are variable, but the use we make of them should be constant.

If your heart is quite set upon a crown, make and put on one of roses, for it will make the prettier appearance.

It is your own conviction that compels you; that is, choice compels choice.

What is the first business of philosophy? To part with self-conceit. For it is impossible for anyone to begin to learn what he thinks that he already knows.

Og

 

[jomar]

Thanks Ogg, I like those additions.

I was hoping people would respond about how they use the "perception of events" in their lives. There have been some moving and supportive threads on life problems, depression, anxiety, etc. I wondered if people used this ancient concept today. It certainly has been validated with research, probably most notably with treatment for depression, working to keep things in proper perspective, as it were.

 

[cantdog]

Perls

I think if we believe Epictetus on the one quote, here, it implies something. That is, if the spring driving your unhappiness (he says upset) is ultimately your own preconceptions, then the motor of your unhappiness is under your own control.

Fritz Perls had the same message in his gestalt therapy, particularly about guilt. He insisted that people cast their guilt in active voice.

Guilt is actually resentment. When you want to say you have guilt, subtitute the real word. It is resentment you have.

Just a semantic trick, on one level, but the key thing about resentment is, it's an action. If you are resenting something, you can stop. People habitually express guilt in passive voice, as something that is happening to them, and that makes it seem that guilt acts on its own. Whereas you are the one who is choosing to resent, choosing to have your guilt, and it is entirely in your compass to just lay off.

 

[Recidiva]

I like Vetinari in Terry Pratchett's book "The Truth."

People don't really want news, they want olds, things they've already heard or know to be true. New news will only upset people.

Confirmation and reinforcement of their social values and events.

"Someone died." "That's bad."

"Someone was born." "That's good!"

"Something weird happened." "That's weird!"

 

[Recidiva]

I think if we believe Epictetus on the one quote, here, it implies something. That is, if the spring driving your unhappiness (he says upset) is ultimately your own preconceptions, then the motor of your unhappiness is under your own control.

Fritz Perls had the same message in his gestalt therapy, particularly about guilt. He insisted that people cast their guilt in active voice.

Guilt is actually resentment. When you want to say you have guilt, subtitute the real word. It is resentment you have.

Just a semantic trick, on one level, but the key thing about resentment is, it's an action. If you are resenting something, you can stop. People habitually express guilt in passive voice, as something that is happening to them, and that makes it seem that guilt acts on its own. Whereas you are the one who is choosing to resent, choosing to have your guilt, and it is entirely in your compass to just lay off.

Very true. I determined long ago that guilt is optional. It has nothing to do with what you've done, but how you think about what you've done. Since some people kill with no remorse, and some peopel flagellate themselves for taking a bite of carbs, it's pretty easily demonstrable.

If you are experiencing guilt, just don't do the damned thing again, or make up the damage you might have done, or realize it is out of your hands. Handled. It's mostly a waste of effort, and some people think that feeling guilt is a punishment. It's not, it's an indicator that you need to do something to feel better, like hunger pangs. Starving does nobody any good. I particularly despise the people who think that their self-induced guilt is enough punishment so it's "time served" and they're off the hook. No.

 

[cantdog]

And as you tell 'em in the 'Islam fiasco' thread, diva, you can pretty easily choose not to fear, too. Most all of the snake oil these guys are selling-- a secret police, a suspension of habeas corpus and 'speedy and public trials, faced by one's accusers," and subtracting any number of other freedoms-- have zero appeal if you aren't going to fear in the first place.

Fear and guilt, resentment, irrational judgements and artificial moralities-- these things are getting in the way. Who needs to be ruled by fear or unreason?

 

[rgraham666]

Fear and guilt, resentment, irrational judgements and artificial moralities-- these things are getting in the way. Who needs to be ruled by fear or unreason?

The people who like being ruled by those things. Or more commonly, have known nothing but.

 

[oggbashan]

More quotes

Only the educated are free.

Know, first, who you are; and then adorn (dress?) yourself accordingly.

Og

 

[jomar]

I think if we believe Epictetus on the one quote, here, it implies something. That is, if the spring driving your unhappiness (he says upset) is ultimately your own preconceptions, then the motor of your unhappiness is under your own control.

Fritz Perls had the same message in his gestalt therapy, particularly about guilt. He insisted that people cast their guilt in active voice.

Guilt is actually resentment. When you want to say you have guilt, subtitute the real word. It is resentment you have.

Just a semantic trick, on one level, but the key thing about resentment is, it's an action. If you are resenting something, you can stop. People habitually express guilt in passive voice, as something that is happening to them, and that makes it seem that guilt acts on its own. Whereas you are the one who is choosing to resent, choosing to have your guilt, and it is entirely in your compass to just lay off.

Hi cantdog...I had to think about his for awhile. I don't think I agree that resentment and guilt are interchangeable. Related certainly.

If I hit a dog with my car I can resent him running into the road, but I can also feel remorse for hurting him.

On the other hand, I may feel resentment for doing favors for others, but I say "yes" because I feel guilty when I don't and because I'm afraid to offend for fear of rejection. Closer, here, but still different dimensions to me. The resentment signals the "reserves" running low and my need to do something about the reasons I can't say no.

 

[jomar]

Very true. I determined long ago that guilt is optional. It has nothing to do with what you've done, but how you think about what you've done. Since some people kill with no remorse, and some peopel flagellate themselves for taking a bite of carbs, it's pretty easily demonstrable.

If you are experiencing guilt, just don't do the damned thing again, or make up the damage you might have done, or realize it is out of your hands. Handled. It's mostly a waste of effort, and some people think that feeling guilt is a punishment. It's not, it's an indicator that you need to do something to feel better, like hunger pangs. Starving does nobody any good. I particularly despise the people who think that their self-induced guilt is enough punishment so it's "time served" and they're off the hook. No.

Yes. Which is where understanding how you perceive/process things affects how you feel (cognitive distortions and all that).

On the positive side, a little guilt and shame are probably helpful to society in general.

 

[jomar]

Only the educated are free.

But won't be if they don't pay back their student loans.

 

[Recidiva]

Yes. Which is where understanding how you perceive/process things affects how you feel (cognitive distortions and all that).

On the positive side, a little guilt and shame are probably helpful to society in general.

Helpful in the way hunger pangs and pain are helpful. As a somatic alert system. A "fix this" sign.

 

[jomar]

Helpful in the way hunger pangs and pain are helpful. As a somatic alert system. A "fix this" sign.

And to steer us/Keep us on track in a socialized direction.

 

[cantdog]

The people who like being ruled by those things. Or more commonly, have known nothing but.

I think the factor which makes people listen to fascists and become followers of them is dispossession. The so-called fundamentalists find their support where the Weimarization of America has taken place to the most complete extent. The rust belt, for example. Where community has broken down. There, too, were those who flirted with the original fascists, before Pearl Harbor. There was a similar breakdown of community and widespread despair in Yugoslavia.

Here's Chris Hedges:
I found, the more I listened to these stories of followers within the movement, that their lives had sunk to such a level of despair and brokenness that they could no longer cope with the real world. There are now, I believe, tens of millions of people within this country—and certainly anyone who has spent time in Ohio is aware of this—who have been completely dispossessed, disenfranchised. If you visit areas around the Rust Belt, these towns look like the developing world. The streets are potholed, the houses are crumbling, the schools are dysfunctional, the downtown stores are boarded up, and the great hulking dinosaurs, rusting hulks of factories, lie broken and unused.

That, of course, has brought all of the ills that come when communities break down: domestic abuse, struggles with alcoholism, broken families. Coupled with this flight of manufacturing jobs— and, of course, they've not been replaced— people, instead of making $50 an hour with benefits as steel workers, are suddenly making $16 an hour without benefits in places like Wal-Mart, if they can even make $16. And, of course, both spouses have to work. There is no future among the working class, no hope that their children will be able to get any kind of job or have any kind of future that will even equal the one that they used to have.

When the real world sucks bad enough and there's no help-- no community, no support, no assistance-- you get despair, and you get rage, too. Give a listen to Limbaugh or O'Reilly or any of these people, or Mussolini or Hitler, for that matter. The language is expressing the rage that many of these people feel.

And once they start listening, resonating to this rage, they find they can listen to these spokesmen twenty-four hours a day. They can avoid any contradictions, any intrusions of reality. It's those immigrants, those terrorists, those gays, those liberals who have done this, and we will take it back from them! The fascist Christians empower them to kill those scapegoats with moral impunity. Once they enter that world, they can leave reality based discussion altogether, and enter a world of magic, where the culprits are known, God cares about them, Jesus intervenes in their lives several times a day, they always will know what to do, all moral thought has already been done for them, and so on. Very appealing.

Christian right wing and political right-wing broadcasting is so pervasive in this society! The echo chamber for this magic-based discourse has been allowed to grow gigantic. And they claim dominion. The Christians are given dominion over the earth. They aim for a Christian nation, and ultimately a Christian world empire, and they say so in so many words. Their opponents are not believers, and it's just fine if they die.

 

[S-Des]

We can't be disturbed by what happens, because all we know are our perceptions of what happens. And all perception is colored by presupposition, culture, ideology and, ulimately, opinion.

I disagree. As humans, we have the ability to choose to listen to others perspectives and try to understand their perceptions...which can help change our own. It's only when we close our minds that all we can see are our own perceptions.