English

[Guest]

It would be really nice if the authors knew how to use correct grammar. Better spelling would probably also be a bonus. Its not much fun spending most of your time trying to understand what the hell they are on about!11

 

[Ray Dario]

Well, unreg, many of us try very hard to use correct grammer and spelling. Why don't you try writing a story then go back and read it. You may be surprised at how many grammer and spelling errors creep in to your own writing. I always am.

I try to catch them all, but I never seem to succeed.

Then you have the problem with different dialects of English. The English use different spellings than Americans who are different than Aussie's who are different than ....

You get the picture.

I agree that many of the stories here on Lit could use some help grammer and spelling wise, but these guys aren't being paid to write these stories. They give them to you for free. Lit doesn't pay us, we get nothing but the occasional nice feedback for all our effort. And it is effort to write a really good erotic story. It's fun, but still a lot of work.

So the next time you are forced to expend a little effort trying to figure out what the story is about, remember how much effort the writer put in. Take a little more time and send him a constructive feedback that addresses his worst problem. Tell him how to do it right but be nice about it. Maybe the next time you read one of his stories it will be better. For just a little more effort you help to improve Lit and help a writer who has given you something for free.

And in the process you may discover that writing is more work than you think.

Ray

 

[Justin_Thyme]

Correct Grammar/Spelling

You said it all Ray. Exellent!
Justin

 

[Omni]

Hi unreg! Well first off you forgot the apostrophe on It's. I can only assume those two one's (11) at the end were an attempt at missing the shift key for exclaimations. (Just some friendly feedback) <grin>
As for grammar it is very important and one should try to do the very best that they can. However, there is such a thing as creative licence, which I use alot, to drive my plots in such things as building tension and story movement.
There are alot of best selling authors out there that do not follow the grammar rules. And when writing dialogue it is impossible to do with correct grammar, because no speaks that way.
My spell checker and grammar check have fits with dialogue. And you know, my grammar checker keeps telling me 'cock' is and offensive word and I should consider using another.
I guess these most logical computers cannot figure out the true rules of grammar game either?
My votes on Ray's side!

Keep smiling,

Omni

 

[KillerMuffin]

I'm with the troll. There are a bunch of stories out there with unforgiveably bad grammar, spelling, and punctuation. There is no excuse for it; not international authorship, not the reader has bad grammar, too, not that s/he tried her best quit picking on him/her.

No, I don't expect a Pulitzer prize winner. I do expect that the author would have the respect for the reader to at least spell check the thing and to use capital letters in other places beyond OOOOOOOOOOOHHHHHH MMMMMMMMMMMMYYYYYYY GGGGGGGGGOOOODDDDDDDDDDD IIIIIIIII'MMMMMMMMMM CCCCCCCCCCUMMMMMMMMMMMINNGGGGGG!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Uh.

Sorry.

[/rant]

 

[Guest]

 

[Nora]

I can only respond as a reader, of course, and since this forum is for feedback I'd have to agree with the troll...um, I mean with the unregistered poster, to a degree.

Most authors have a basic grasp of spelling and grammar. In some stories you can tell that the author had the presence of mind to use a spell-checker, although in some cases I don't think they pay very close attention to the choices the spell-checker gives them.

Then there are the stories that are so completely incorrect that it hurts your brain to read them. A story laid out in a single paragraph rife with misspellings, typos and run-on sentences is impossible to read even if the plot is engrossing. So very honestly, the reader doesn't read them. If the author's goal is to be read, then that's not the way to go IMO.

 

[damppanties]

Re: Re: English

I can count 7 mistakes in your statement alone.

...and what are they?

 

[Ray Dario]

It would be really nice if the authors knew how to use correct grammar. Better spelling would probably also be a bonus. Its not much fun spending most of your time trying to understand what the hell they are on about!11

My problem wasn't with him dissing bad writers on this site. My problem was with him dissing ALL writers on this site. His statement was a global generalization of all the writers here at Lit. And I take offense at anyone saying that ALL the writers here at Lit don't know how to use correct grammer or a spell checker.

Beyond that, I was offering some perspective on value. If you get something for free you have no right to demand that it be good. That is just stupid!

The reverse isn't true though. Even though we don't get paid for writing, as writers, we should do our best to make our stories as good as we can. I, and I know others here do the same, go to great lengths to make my stories as good as I can. And I'm trying to improve my writing with each story.

Then I tried to give some advice on how to help the situation with the writers who don't use proper grammer or spelling, instead of just whining about it.

Nothing in this world irritates me more than someone whining about a problem and then not being willing to help solve it.

Is there a problem with poor grammer on this site? In some ways probably. But you don't have to read those stories. If you choose to read a story like that, then feel free to come to this forum and leave a scathing feedback that points out everything the writer did wrong. Most of those guys will never read it anyway. Or you can send him an annonymous feedback that let's him know he produced crap. If you want to help, you will also give him some pointers on how to make his crap better. Again most of the writers who produce the really poor stories won't give a shit anyway. But if it's a writer who wants to write well, then maybe that one feedback will push him to buying a book on grammer and actually reading it. Or maybe it will help him remember to take the time to run a spell checker. Maybe the next story he submits will be better.

Or you can just continue to troll over here and badmouth all the writers because you want to feel like some big wonderful better-than-you person, but don't want to put any effort into helping the problem.

Ray

 

[Guest]

 

[KillerMuffin]

S/He's using UK-based vernacular. Re-correct the above with regards to UK-based vernacular and the only errors are its-it's and the shift key business. Most people post in vernacular, not in standard English. They post the way they think, or speak, because that's the way they're used to using words. Now publication of a story is different because most people who write stories are incapable of using vernacular effectively. Funny how that works.


You wanna see something seriously fucked up read A Crash Course In Grammar and pick out the grammatical errors.

 

[Guest]

 

[jon.hayworth]

"I first gave the youth a re-encouraging kiss,which he repaid me with a fervour that seemed at once to thank me and bribe my farther compliance, and I soon replaced myself in a posture to recieve, at all risks, the renewed invasion, which he did not delay an instant: for, being presently remounted, I once more felt the smooth hard gristle forcing an entrance, which he recieved rather easier than before. Pained, however as I was, with his efforts of gaining a complete admission, which he was so regardful as to manage by gentle degrees, I took care not to complain. In the meantime, the soft strait passage gradually loosens, yields, and, stretched to its utmost bearing by the stiff, thick, in-driven engine, sensible at once to the ravishing pleasure of the feel and the pain of distension, let him in about half way, when all the most nervous activity he now exerted to further his penetration gained him not an inch of his purpose; for, whilst he hesitated there, the crisis of pleasure overtook him, and the close compressure of the warm surrounding fold drew from him the ecstatic gush, even before mine was ready to meet it, kept up by the pain I had endured in the course of the engagement, from the unsufferable size of his weapon, though it was not as yet in above half its length."

OK Grammer Guru's correct the errors in the passage.
I admit it - that passage was terrible. I dread to think how many sentences it should be.

The point I am trying to make is grammer is not everything - The passage comes from John Cleland's Fanny Hill.

I do not think formal grammer is the be all and end all of good writing, however good spelling and the use of language in a way that is easy to comprehend is important.

jon

PS I would be interested in seeing a corrected version of the passage.

 

[KillerMuffin]

It's simple. You cannot transcend that which you do not know.

Grammar isn't all, but if you're a beginner it's right up there.

The troll could have been a hell of a lot more tactful about the bitching. Or he could demand his money back so we can laugh in her face.

Writers shouldn't automatically assume that because Cleland and Twain did it, they can do it, too. Cause quite frankly, they have the talent and knowledge and the average Lit writer don't. Thumbing your nose at grammar doesn't mean you'll write Huck Finn. It usually means that the reader will give up in disgust. Witness the troll that began the thread.

 

[abashed-dreamer]

Emerald_eyed

"Better spelling would be a bonus." is certainly a sentence, in my humble opinion. Please check with someone and then tell your reasons for saying otherwise.

Jack.

 

[Ray Dario]

It's simple. You cannot transcend that which you do not know.

Grammar isn't all, but if you're a beginner it's right up there.

The troll could have been a hell of a lot more tactful about the bitching. Or he could demand his money back so we can laugh in her face.

Writers shouldn't automatically assume that because Cleland and Twain did it, they can do it, too. Cause quite frankly, they have the talent and knowledge and the average Lit writer don't. Thumbing your nose at grammar doesn't mean you'll write Huck Finn. It usually means that the reader will give up in disgust. Witness the troll that began the thread.

Yes, KM you have nailed the head with your hit Sorry I went off like that, must not be getting enough sleep.

Still the writers who don't give a shit about grammer or spelling are probably not hanging on this board either. Most of the writers I see here, meaning this Forum and the "Authors Hangout", are either already very good, or trying to get better.

Ray

 

[jon.hayworth]

Jack,

I just ran MS Word's Grammar Checker over.-

"Better spelling would be a bonus."

According to the Bill Gates creation you are right, it is a sentence.

No KM, I was not suggesting that we should chuck the rule-books into the trash bin. That conflicts with my notion that we should write in a style that will be comprehensible to the majority of Lit readers.

Personally I am trying out a new (to me) method of editing my work. Reading it out loud onto tape. I am finding that I pick up a lot of the mistakes, convoluted, or difficult sentences and phrases at the reading stage, and I hope the remainder whilst listening to the playback.

I know that I am not a grammar or punctuation Guru, and years of academic study have certainly done little or nothing to improve the situation. I mean I know the basic rules, a sentence must have a subject, a noun and a verb. If I am right the shortest complete sentence would be. "I am."

Any easy tips will be gratefully received.

jon

 

[SexyChele]

I have to agree with Jon's litle "tip". I have not read any of the stories that I've yet posted out loud, and the spelling errors are there to prove it. However, I've started doing it with this next story I've written (not onto tape, though, just out loud), and I'm finding it really does work. Yeah, you feel a little stupid reading out loud to a cat - as in my case - but if it works, how can I pass it up?

I also agree that grammar is not the only thing our writing is about. But I feel strongly that if you wish your audience to enjoy your story, then you should make it as easy for them to read the thoughts you were able to put down on paper. (or, in a computer as it may be)

 

[jon.hayworth]

Thanks Chele, I can not claim to have originated the idea. I read it in Susie Bright's book "HOW TO WRITE A DIRTY STORY" published by Simon & Schuster.

I bought it last week and think it is a must have book for all writers, and an absolute essential for those who aspire to write erotica of a publishable standard.

jon

 

[KillerMuffin]

Hmm. Hey Jon...? Will you read your next dirty story out loud to me? We can, er, find grammar errors. Yeah, that's it.

 

[Guest]

 

[jon.hayworth]

KM

I have no doubts that my next story will still contain grammar errors. However if reading the story through and listening to it, helps me to make the story flow, then hopefully it will show an improvement.

Meanwhile I shall pick up my copy of Benjamin's and use it as light reading material.

Remember we are not all teachers of English, I do not know about the US academic system, but over here poor English grammar does not affect the scores you get for essays in subjects other than English. Maybe that is a bad thing and maybe not, I am in two minds.

By the way, I am not having a go but was I right about the use of ellipses in dialogue (Literary Peeves) and if not how do I show someone has been cut off?

jon

 

[Quasimodem]

'Magic Spell' Chequer

At least three "Creative Writing" teachers have advised me that reading my story backwards was a good way to find spelling mistakes. (Ye olden days, pre-spell checkers.)

Maybe I should try part of Jon's idea? Read the story into a tape recorder, then play the tape backwards.

Quasi

 

[PAUL C]

Excuses and reading out loud

As I said to my English teacher. "What does it matter? You understood what I was trying to say." and "That's the way Shakesphere spells it."

Needless to say I failed my exam.

I agree with reading out loud onto tape. You do pick up a lot of errors. I would reccomend that.

Laurel has about ten hours of me doing this. One day she may share them with you.

 

[abashed-dreamer]

KM.
Let's not be too harshe.

There are a bunch of stories out there with unforgiveably bad grammar, spelling, and punctuation. There is no excuse for it ...
[snipped]

;-)
Jack