English as the National Language of the United States of America

[sunstruck]

Ok, I came a little late to this discussion, but I wanted to give it a bump (see D. I'm learning the lingo) because it directly relates to something I just dealt with.
I received a "patriotic" email from someone who, by no choice of my own, has recently become a very important member of my family. The email was one of the most racist things I'd ever read. I mean it sounded like a KKK news letter. And it all started with a rant about imigrants who can't speak English.
I don't know if I'd call myself patriotic, but I do know that one of the things I am most proud of as a citizen of the US is the multicultural nature of our country.
Give me your tired, your poor, your huddled masses...it may not be in the constitution, but I think the Statue of Liberty is more recognized as a symbol of this country than bald egles or even the flag itself.
When my great grandmother came over from Russia she didn't speak a word of English. But she learned and once she did she insisted it be the only language spoken in her house. The end result is my Grandmother could speak very little Russian, my mother barely any and me...well I'd be impressed with myself if I could string a sentence together. I understand why she did it, but I think it's sad. Language is very much a part of our history, and I feel like I've lost a piece of it.
That email caused a rift in my family that will never be healed, and it's the thought behind it that causes the rifts that are most damaging to our nation. And it all started with a rant about imigrants who can't speak english.

 

[Kitte]

I live in an urban area that is largely Latino (is that the PC term)
It is culturaly diverse we have many vietnamese and brazillian families as well. I love that diversity, part of the reason I choose to live where I do.

I am originally from the woods of NewHampshire. I speak english with a few words of french, spanish, and greek thrown in. I worked at a shop that sold motorcycles a man came and and the only english he knew at all was "Get me a translator" By the end of his 45 minute tirade I was almost in tears. He spoke some of the few words of spanish I know repetedly and I was not pleased!
I know he is not representative of everyone but that is the predominate attitude where I live. They speak portugese or spanish or whatever and I am wrong if I do not bend to accomodate them. I think this is wrong. My family is russian and german and both were spoken in our home but it was my great grandparents pride that they had come to America and they loved to speak english when they learned it. It made them AMERICAN!

Here is my question, If i move to Mexico should everyone I encounter have to speak english because I do???? I mean really things are just getting too PC. And let me tell ya this is coming from a card carrying tree hugging liberal.

 

[Unclebill]

I live in an urban area that is largely Latino (is that the PC term) . . .

Excuse me, but isn't this a maculine form? And isn't this sexist jargon likely to get you in trouble with the PC Gender terminology Nazis?

Aren't you being so very un-PC by not using Latin or Latina/Latino instead? Admittedly, I'm not well versed in the PC policies and directives, but my guesstimate is that it is PC to put the feminine before the masculine lest I hint at a patriarchial institution.

Just trying to help you stay out of trouble with the thought police.

 

[Calamity Jane]

Re: Let's understand the idea...

No one is suggesting that a person not be able to express their heritage or celebrate their native tongue. I have been in Mexican bars in Albuquerque, Korean in Galveston, God knows what in Honolulu and Canadian in Toronto!

The "official" language of the US should be, must remain and is English! Does that mean that no one can speak any other languge here? Cut out your TONGUE!! No other country in history has ever been as accepting and assimilating as the United States! From foreign friends to "past" enemies, no nation has accepted the diversity that embodies the "culture of America"!

We should not, nor will not, accept the Canadian solution of multiple language that has proven to be a disaster! Maybe the Canucks should have demanded that France be multi-lingual with "ehh"!

RhumbRunner

The problem with this theory is that our language is an itegral part of our culture. Ask the true Celts what happened to their culture when they began to lose their language. Or the Native Americans. Just as there are certain English words that don't translate well to other languages, there are entire histories that don't translate well to other languages. By stripping people of their language, we strip them of their heitage and their culture.

 

[RhumbRunner13]

PCG...

You said;

The problem with this theory is that our language is an itegral part of our culture. Ask the true Celts what happened to their culture when they began to lose their language. Or the Native Americans. Just as there are certain English words that don't translate well to other languages, there are entire histories that don't translate well to other languages. By stripping people of their language, we strip them of their heitage and their culture.

I'm not sure if you are taking me to task for a theory I might have proposed or agreeing with the thought that all language should be accepted, outside of the official business of that conducted by the nation and the states. Only to a minor extent does language influence heritage. I grew up in the southwest when many Mexican Americans spoke as much Spanish as I did, which was equal to my German skills. I did not, however, see them as any less Mexican nor myself as any less German in HERITAGE!

Am I being anal?

Rhumb

 

[Calamity Jane]

Accept

2 : to give admittance or approval to
3 a : to endure without protest or reaction b : to regard as proper, normal, or inevitable c : to recognize as true :

Assimilate
2 a : to make similar b : to alter by assimilation c : to absorb into the culture or mores of a population or group

Aren't these mutually exclusive ideas?

 

[RhumbRunner13]

PCG.....

Accept: 1 a : to receive willingly

Assimilate: 1 a : to take in and appropriate as nourishment : absorb into the system.

I'm not a Literotican, I only play one on the computer, but if these definitions don't fit my post and are somehow opposites relating to it, I'm confused!

Rhumb

 

[Calamity Jane]

I suppose the difficulty I'm having, is understanding how we can absorb a culture into a system, without diminishing or perverting that culture.

Perhaps I'm not communicating well tonight?

 

[RhumbRunner13]

Culture....

"I suppose the difficulty I'm having, is understanding how we can absorb a culture into a system, without diminishing or perverting that culture."

Yeah, I see what you're saying, but we don't destroy in this assimilation! Look at examples like the Norwegians and Swedes of Minnesota, the Germans of New Braunfels, Texas or the Viet Namese of Clear Lake, Texas. Their pride becomes being American, becoming American in their Swedish, German or Viet Namese way!

Rhumb

 

[Unclebill]

Why do people immigrate to America? Is it not for the freedom and opportunity offered?

If their culture is of utmost importance, then why immigrate here? The more sensible thing would be to remain where the culture they value is inculcated.

To immigrate here implies that the new culture they join is a better one (why else come here?) and they should be willing, even happy, to assimilate. That does not mean they abandon everything of their history but it does include becoming an American.

America's language is English; it is the language of technology, it is the language of opportunity, it is the language of success; it should be the language of government as well. To take advantage of these various aspects of their newly adopted culture, why would the effort to learn basic English not be a worthwhile one for their own benefit and for their progeny's?

Originally posted by pagancowgirl
I suppose the difficulty I'm having, is understanding how we can absorb a culture into a system, without diminishing or perverting that culture.

I don't see it as absorbing another culture. Those who come here for freedom are joining the American culture while leaving behind the culture from which they emigrated.

I do not advocate forcing anyone to abandon their native tongue. Nor do I advocate forcing anyone to abandon their traditions or celebrations. I only advocate they be required to learn enough English and American history to understand the uniquely American heritage; freedom and individual rights first defined as beyond the power of government to revoke or abrogate. And if they must deal with government, it should be in the English language.

Even with the vast corruption of career politicians all through our government, we are still the freest, most productive, most prosperous nation on earth. And sadly, for that we are the most hated by the uncivilized savages who would destroy us rather than raise themselves out of their savage brutality.

There are too few people today who truly understand or appreciate the greatness of the United States of America from its roots in colonial times to the first nation on this earth ever founded on the premise of freedom and equality for all. Sadly, too many of those were born and raised here yet have not learned to appreciate the magnificent benefit of living in the freest nation ever conceived and the most successful in the recorded history of the world in terms of standard of living, prosperity, general health, and a myriad of other benefits.

As an example, I see Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton and others of that ilk bad-mouthing America about how badly blacks are treated here. Yet while Arabic Sudanese are slaughtering hundred or thousands of African blacks, they don't open their mouths about it. Why? Because it doesn't get them a penny in contributions like their extortionary accusations of racism do here.

 

[sch00lteacher]

I have to teach this subject so I am supposed to understand it. Yeah right.

First, there is no, never has been, a melting pot. I beg forgiveness but I have forgotten the new buzzword. I got up to early this morning. But it isn't melting pot.

In the United States you either assimilate, or you wither and die. History shows us this.

As new groups move into the country they at first congregate amongst others who share their language and culture. They send their children to school to learn English. The kids learn fast. Mom and dad may never really learn. It didn't used to matter, because Johnny or Sally would translate for mom and dad.

To assimilate you have to become one of them, on the outside. Dress, music, food, language. On the inside you retain your original culture if that is your desire. At home you may speak only the old language, eat the old food, etc. Nothing too wrong with that.

When the kids grow up, they move away from little Italy, Little Cuba, etc.. Mom and dad don't. This isn't a Spanish or Mexican issue. The Irish, Germans, so forth and so on, went through the same process.

Wait a generation or two and this will no longer be an issue. Only recent immigrants (future immigrants) will speak Spanish.

Unless we continue to allow the children to retain their original language. If everything is going to be bi-lingual there is no reason for them to change.

I have been all around the world at the request of the military and Department of Defense. In some countries the people will make an effort to learn some English, because they like our money, and want us to feel comfortable. But they don't change their signs or written documents to accommodate us.

In some countries they don't even make an effort to learn English. And we get pissed off. Why? It is their fucking country! Who should learn the other's language, the citizen learn ours, or we theirs?

If we should learn theirs, then why can't we ask the Mexicans to learn ours? You can't have it both ways.

 

[freescorfr]

To immigrate here implies that the new culture they join is a better one (why else come here?) and they should be willing, even happy, to assimilate. That does not mean they abandon everything of their history but it does include becoming an American.

[/B]

Every immigrant you have changes what you have been. Is is not about

becoming an American

it is about what america is becoming.

Or what europe is becoming.

Sch00lteach - as you say - it's all in the melting pot.

 

[tigerjen]

As my father always says........if you're going to live
in this country and work in this country, you need to
learn to speak the language!!!!!!!

tigerjen

 

[freescorfr]

As my father always says........if you're going to live
in this country and work in this country, you need to
learn to speak the language!!!!!!!

tigerjen

I was once taught something on magangement by a pakistani professor who, when he arrived in the UK spoke little English, although he was very highly qualified. He took a job sweeping floors in the Hoover Factory in West London. One day the foreman told him he was likely to get the sack and the floors were not clean enough.

He thought the guy told him he would like a sack - so he spent the whole day looking for one and was sacked.


So your dad's right, tigerjen, quite pragmatic really. I avoid visiting countries where I can't speak the language.

 

[AmishPope]

Re: Re: English as the National Language of the United States of America

I vehemently disagree.

The overwhelming argument FOR English as the 'official language' is that is what our laws are written in.

There are words and concepts in a language that cannot be translated with any precision whatsoever. Accepting a poly-lingual society from a legal standpoint would lead to laws that mean one thing for one group and something quite different to another group. A condition that would not long endure before insurrection broke out.

A quick example is the word "threshold". There is no Spanish equivalent to this word.

Ishmael

i believe you couldnt be more wrong sir. we have courts which interpret and decide what laws do and do not mean. it is NOT up to an individual to decide for himself how a law applies to him/herself. this is an example of the many checks & balances of our government.

 

[AmishPope]

"To immigrate here implies that the new culture they join is a better one (why else come here?) and they should be willing, even happy, to assimilate. That does not mean they abandon everything of their history but it does include becoming an American."



Grrrrrr.... this statement infuriates me. when people moved to america it mostly had nothing to do with disliking their culture. most people moved here and still move here for economic reasons. or to practice the culture they want freely.


i really get upset when people think our culture is better than someone elses. why? no one culture is better than another. every culture has something to offer. we have so much to learn from each other. one of the great things about this board is it allows people from different cultures to come together and talk. to share ideas.

please dont say that when you move to someplace new you do so cause you ahte your culture. or you do so because you believe another culture to be better than yours.

 

[Unclebill]

Originally posted by AmishPope
Grrrrrr.... this statement infuriates me. when people moved to america it mostly had nothing to do with disliking their culture. most people moved here and still move here for economic reasons. or to practice the culture they want freely.

Why do people have such a desire to attribute to me what I did not say even when quoting me? I simply said they are implying it is a better one, not that they hate or dislike the culture of their origin. But I also find it quite interesting that when you offer they come here to practice their culture freely, you're specifying the one thing that is unique to and superior of America, and that is freedom.

Originally posted by AmishPope
i really get upset when people think our culture is better than someone elses. why? no one culture is better than another. every culture has something to offer. we have so much to learn from each other. one of the great things about this board is it allows people from different cultures to come together and talk. to share ideas.

please dont say that when you move to someplace new you do so cause you ahte your culture. or you do so because you believe another culture to be better than yours.

I acknowledge that you're certainly entitled to believe as you choose, but I find it ludicrous that you don't value freedom above slavery which is what your statement that no culture is superior to another implies. You're morally equating the American culture with the collectivist cultures around the world that have slaughtered millions of human beings in the name of governing. And that I find offensive; that a nation which puts the value of life at a premium is morally equivalent to a nation that considers its people no more than cattle.

And the people who came to America for "economic reasons", did they not come here for the freedom to pursue economic opportunity? And why did they choose America? Was it not because they perceived the freedom to pursue their dreams a superior environment or value? If not, then why come to America? Why not immigrate to any of the other equally valuable cultures like China, Mexico, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, etc? Since all cultures are equal, certainly they could have achieved comparable success anywhere, don't you think?

 

[AmishPope]

Why do people have such a desire to attribute to me what I did not say even when quoting me? I simply said they are implying it is a better one, not that they hate or dislike the culture of their origin. But I also find it quite interesting that when you offer they come here to practice their culture freely, you're specifying the one thing that is unique to and superior of America, and that is freedom.
I acknowledge that you're certainly entitled to believe as you choose, but I find it ludicrous that you don't value freedom above slavery which is what your statement that no culture is superior to another implies. You're morally equating the American culture with the collectivist cultures around the world that have slaughtered millions of human beings in the name of governing. And that I find offensive; that a nation which puts the value of life at a premium is morally equivalent to a nation that considers its people no more than cattle.

And the people who came to America for "economic reasons", did they not come here for the freedom to pursue economic opportunity? And why did they choose America? Was it not because they perceived the freedom to pursue their dreams a superior environment or value? If not, then why come to America? Why not immigrate to any of the other equally valuable cultures like China, Mexico, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iraq, Iran, Sudan, Somalia, etc? Since all cultures are equal, certainly they could have achieved comparable success anywhere, don't you think?

allright dude lets review. first of all i never said you said anything. i simply pulled that quote from your post and said hey this quote pisses me off.

and where do you get that all cultures are equal equals slavery??? it's the ethnocentrism of believeing one culture is better than another that leads to slavery. its guys thinking "hey thsoe people are savages and we're better and smarter than they are. so we have the right to make them slaves."

also america has slaughtered people in the name of governing ever hear of the indegineous people we stole the land from and then forced them to live on reservations? and why did we do so?? cause we thought our culture was better than theirs.

further more people come here for economiuc opportunities that dont exist elsewhere. most of the countries you named are 3rd world countries. and in thsoe places you arent free to have the culture you want. certianly not china and certainly not in the former pakistan regime.

i will agree that america does offer a freedom that most other countries do not. but that doesnt mean people move her because they hate their own culture.

 

[Ishmael]

Re: Re: Re: English as the National Language of the United States of America

i believe you couldnt be more wrong sir. we have courts which interpret and decide what laws do and do not mean. it is NOT up to an individual to decide for himself how a law applies to him/herself. this is an example of the many checks & balances of our government.

Believe what you want. Most courts DO NOT willy-nilly interpret or decide what the law "means". In the case of ambiguities this is done by a higher court, or well settled case law.

A written law that plainly says 'X' in one language and says 'Y'in another will lead to problems. That eventuality is inevitable where multiple languages are accomodated. Those countries where it's been tried have eventually fallen into civil insurrection.

Ishmael

 

[AmishPope]

Re: Re: Re: Re: English as the National Language of the United States of America

Believe what you want. Most courts DO NOT willy-nilly interpret or decide what the law "means". In the case of ambiguities this is done by a higher court, or well settled case law.

A written law that plainly says 'X' in one language and says 'Y'in another will lead to problems. That eventuality is inevitable where multiple languages are accomodated. Those countries where it's been tried have eventually fallen into civil insurrection.

Ishmael

Actually courts do interpret or decide what laws mean. It's their job. In some cases its the Supreme Court that decides what some laws mean, in other times in a more local level court. But the fact of the matter remains that courts do interpret laws. If not why do we have them?? Courts decide what laws mean no matter what language they are written in.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

also america has slaughtered people in the name of governing ever hear of the indegineous people we stole the land from and then forced them to live on reservations? and why did we do so?? cause we thought our culture was better than theirs.

Well, no, that wasn't the "reason".

First of all, this whole "stealing the land from the Native Americans" thing isn't quite that simple. The happy go lucky indigenous folks had been here for centuries fighting and killing each other and taking over land without any help from us, so just who "owned" Iowa pre-Mainfest Destiny isn't something you can nail down. Many of the Native American nations rejected the whole idea of "owning" the land. Americans moving out west can be considered another Continental Tribe, just as bold and war-like as all the other tribes that fought over a stream or valley.

And let's be politically incorrect here -- why shouldn't the continent go to the biggest gun? That's how it's done. One village needs water, and if they can take it, they're going to take it. There's not one nation on earth (and I would venture to guess, in all of history) that was not won through battle or subterfuge. There were no "nations" until victorious city states in places like Greece and Germany began to force their government on the rest of the race.

Where you can ascribe guilt and savagery to the American settlers is in the numerous lawful treaties that were abandoned, discarded and broken. Once the American government recognized a naiton like the Navaho or the Apache (and they did), they elevated them to State, and as a State ourselves we should have dealt with them much, much better.

I do not condone the wholesale slaughter of Indians for land, of course, but that isn't exactly how it happened, and the long trail of mistreatment and broken treaties doesn't mean "Manifest Destiny" was morally wrong, or support the notion that the Indians were the wronged rightful "owners" of the Continent.

Now excuse me while I go find my copy of "The Prince".

 

[coolr]

I had a big argument yesterday with a colleague (who escaped Czechoslovakia while it was still under Soviet rule, and who had to wait 5 years for U.S. citizenship) about why we should never make English the national language of the U.S.

His point was that we spend millions on bi-lingual sings and voter cards, and that it should be a requirement for citizenship that you first speak English, and that we should not spend so much time catering to those closed ethnic communities (like the Cubans in Miami or the Mexicans in L.A.) that don't really put anything back into the American economy, but keep all their money and business withing their own circles.

My point was that this country was not formed on a definition of what an American "was", and that, in fact, the Fouding Fathers went out of their way to make sure that such a definition never happened (thus freedom of religion, speech, etc.). And that the day you open the door to the English-Only requirement for citizenship is the same day you open the door to all sorts of other "Original American" requirements, like appearance. ("All the original Colonists were THIS tall, so you have to be THIS tall too!")

Any other arguments I could use?

for any other ppl that might be reading this, ENGLISH IS THE LANGUAGE OF THE USA!!!!! ENGLISH IS ALSO the ONLY language that is considered the worldwide/international language, just to clear things up.......if u don't believe it, do some research, but i don't see why you wouldn't believe that......

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Just to be clear, that has absolutely nothing to do with the topic. What are you going to inform us about next, that we all breathe oxygen?

 

[AmishPope]

Re: Re: English as the National Language of the United States of America

for any other ppl that might be reading this, ENGLISH IS THE LANGUAGE OF THE USA!!!!! ENGLISH IS ALSO the ONLY language that is considered the worldwide/international language, just to clear things up.......if u don't believe it, do some research, but i don't see why you wouldn't believe that......

coolr i believe you must live somewhere far from any major city. many languages are spoken in this country. english is only one of them. and i did some research and guess what i found out...spanish is the most spoken language in the world not english.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I'm pretty sure it's Chinese, though Spanish (along with French and English) are spoken more Internationally.