English as the National Language of the United States of America

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I had a big argument yesterday with a colleague (who escaped Czechoslovakia while it was still under Soviet rule, and who had to wait 5 years for U.S. citizenship) about why we should never make English the national language of the U.S.

His point was that we spend millions on bi-lingual sings and voter cards, and that it should be a requirement for citizenship that you first speak English, and that we should not spend so much time catering to those closed ethnic communities (like the Cubans in Miami or the Mexicans in L.A.) that don't really put anything back into the American economy, but keep all their money and business withing their own circles.

My point was that this country was not formed on a definition of what an American "was", and that, in fact, the Fouding Fathers went out of their way to make sure that such a definition never happened (thus freedom of religion, speech, etc.). And that the day you open the door to the English-Only requirement for citizenship is the same day you open the door to all sorts of other "Original American" requirements, like appearance. ("All the original Colonists were THIS tall, so you have to be THIS tall too!")

Any other arguments I could use?

 

[android1966]

Didn't California recently make English it's official language?

 

[Spinaroonie]

Having a national language could cause turmoil between states that have a high percentage of spanish speakers. That could lead to a similiar condition towards Canada and Quebec.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

No. No state can do that. A state may vote upon whether or not to print things like school tests and voting materials in other languages, but it can't make English the "official" language.

California recently gave up (mostly) on Billingual Education, not just because of the expense, but because the goal of the Billingual Education programs, which was to eventually ease Spanish speaking kids into speaking English, wasn't working. They discovered that Billingual Education was actually making it harder for kids to care enough about learning English. The kids who got no Billingual Education were learning English faster.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

sd: You're right. Quebec's rationale is that they wish to secede, so they can pick whatever language they like, isn't it? The last time anyone tried to secede around here a tall guy in a stovepipe hat got shot.

 

[kotori]

Having a national language could cause turmoil between states that have a high percentage of spanish speakers.

And all states have expanding Spanish speaking populations. We should face the fact that English, in the Western Hemisphere, is a minority language. Bush's laudable discussions with Central and South American countries regarding a wider free-trade zone only point more towards recognizing Spanish. Maybe we need to become officially bi-lingual. What about that?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Tell that to the Asians.

 

[scylis]

we need to have schools start teaching other languages to kids from the get go. doesn't have to be much, just the basics, then slowly build on them as the years pass on, just like we do with English. do you have any idea what actually knowing a little of other languages besides English would do for our image as tourists in other countries?

 

[kotori]

sd: You're right. Quebec's rationale is that they wish to secede, so they can pick whatever language they like, isn't it? The last time anyone tried to secede around here a tall guy in a stovepipe hat got shot.

No no, the Canadian language question is entirely different. There were two founding "nations" (small "n"), Francophone and Anglophone. The efforts of the Québecois has been to preserve their language in the face of ever-expanding use of English in the rest of British North America.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I had Spanish for six years in grade school. You know what I can say? "Yo hablo English", and that's it. Perhaps it was a lazy educational approach to teaching languages. Maybe it was that I had no one to actually speak Spanish to, and so had no incentive to apply myself.

 

[Ishmael]

I had a big argument yesterday with a colleague (who escaped Czechoslovakia while it was still under Soviet rule, and who had to wait 5 years for U.S. citizenship) about why we should never make English the national language of the U.S.

His point was that we spend millions on bi-lingual sings and voter cards, and that it should be a requirement for citizenship that you first speak English, and that we should not spend so much time catering to those closed ethnic communities (like the Cubans in Miami or the Mexicans in L.A.) that don't really put anything back into the American economy, but keep all their money and business withing their own circles.

My point was that this country was not formed on a definition of what an American "was", and that, in fact, the Fouding Fathers went out of their way to make sure that such a definition never happened (thus freedom of religion, speech, etc.). And that the day you open the door to the English-Only requirement for citizenship is the same day you open the door to all sorts of other "Original American" requirements, like appearance. ("All the original Colonists were THIS tall, so you have to be THIS tall too!")

Any other arguments I could use?

I vehemently disagree.

The overwhelming argument FOR English as the 'official language' is that is what our laws are written in.

There are words and concepts in a language that cannot be translated with any precision whatsoever. Accepting a poly-lingual society from a legal standpoint would lead to laws that mean one thing for one group and something quite different to another group. A condition that would not long endure before insurrection broke out.

A quick example is the word "threshold". There is no Spanish equivalent to this word.

Ishmael

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

No no, the Canadian language question is entirely different. There were two founding "nations" (small "n"), Francophone and Anglophone. The efforts of the Québecois has been to preserve their language in the face of ever-expanding use of English in the rest of British North America.

Ah. Interesting.

But do they feel they can accomplish any French-only legislation without secession?

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Re: Re: English as the National Language of the United States of America

The overwhelming argument FOR English as the 'official language' is that is what our laws are written in.

That's an interesting argument I hadn't heard before. But I believe a citizen's rights can be upheld without a translation for the word "threshold". We also don't print the letter "s" like a lowercase "f" anymore, and we're doing just fine interpretting original documents. And when was the last time you heard anyone say "inalienable"? I believe both the Constitution and the Declaration of Independence, and well as all our basic documents of there era, are written well enough to expand their meaning and protection to those who only speak Spanish. And today's laws are written with mulit-culturism in mind.

 

[Spinaroonie]

And all states have expanding Spanish speaking populations. We should face the fact that English, in the Western Hemisphere, is a minority language. Bush's laudable discussions with Central and South American countries regarding a wider free-trade zone only point more towards recognizing Spanish. Maybe we need to become officially bi-lingual. What about that?

Then you'd have to force kids in Michigan and other countires to learn Spanish as their second language when it's French that would help them communmicate better.

 

[kotori]

Ah. Interesting.

But do they feel they can accomplish any French-only legislation without secession?

I'm not sure what you mean. Within Québec, it's pretty much French only. Ever notice the Tim Hortons donut sign? No apostephe--because in French it would have to be «le doughnut du Tim Horton».

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

One argument against a national language is that it is seen as an elitist sanctioning of one group over another (like how Latin was once used to keep the lower classes from learning how to find work in the fields of medicine, the law, or the clergy).

 

[kotori]

Then you'd have to force kids in Michigan and other countires to learn Spanish as their second language when it's French that would help them communmicate better.

I don't know what part of Michigan speaks French, but the idea of bi-lingual is that you use one or the other, not forced into either one.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I'm not sure what you mean. Within Québec, it's pretty much French only.

But there is a difference between how a thing is by custom, how a thing is by legislation. Does Quebec seek a legal French-Only status, even if they aren't premitted to secede?

 

[Weevil]

I'm not sure what you mean. Within Québec, it's pretty much French only. Ever notice the Tim Hortons donut sign? No apostephe--because in French it would have to be «le doughnut du Tim Horton».

That'd be news to the millions in Montreal.

To be honest the situation in Quebec is the best argument against having an "official" language. What it has lead to is enforcing a language on people in the name of "heritage"

 

[Scruffy]

The government of Quebec is wack.

No regards for free speech whatsoever.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

I understand the "heritage" concern. France recently went through this same debate, over concern that "French" as a concept, as an ethnicity, as a custom, as a hundreds year old "identity" be not lost.

There are many in this country (usually sleeping outdoors in Montana with a rifle) who want to preserve "American Heritage" by denying equal citizenship to those that don't fit the John Adams/Davey Cricket model, and I believe they would hurtfully exploit any "Offical Language" status English is given to oppress them.

 

[Scruffy]

I understand the "heritage" concern. France recently went through this same debate, over concern that "French" as a concept, as an ethnicity, as a custom, as a hundreds year old "identity" be not lost.

I understand it too but what's worse, losing french or forcing a 14 year old boy to sit through hour after hour of

Je Suis
Tu es
Il est
Elle Est
Nous Sommes
Vous

Well, you get the picture.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

The government of Quebec is wack.

I'm sorry, but Literotica has been declared a "No Hip-Hop Language" State. You will be taken out and shot just as soon as we collect all our profits from Snoop's latest suck and fuck flick.

 

[MissTaken]

If US citizens were required to have an "Official language", it would lend itself to losing many other freedoms, and violating the intent of the nation's founders.

We would also lose the beauty of the diversity of the "melting pot."


Language is a huge part of what keeps culture in tact. Forcing English into Chinatown or Little Italy would eventually take away from the cultural values therein.

 

[Dixon Carter Lee]

Well, let me jump sides and play Devil's advocate about that for a minute...

A community in Miami once used to be predominantly Jewish. Now it is predominantly Cuban, and all the signs have been changed to Spanish. The few Jewish residents who still live there complain that they can't go shopping in their own neighborhood, because they can't read any of the signs in the commercial district. So what's wrong with forcing them to have English signs? Does allowing Mrs. Goldberg to know the price of ketchup infringe upon the Cuban's "cultural values therein"?