Emulation, not imitation..what is the difference?

[Maria2394]

OKay, I will try my damndest to be very diplomatic and non-snarky here. ( I borrowed a word Ange uses a lot)


Okay. First off, I will be decent and apologize to Reltne for my choice of words. Perhaps I was harsh on him. I just thought HIS choice of words was offensive. That the "obvious" choices to him...etc, etc. Would not a phrase like, " My faves of the day are..." Let that die. I wont ever bring it up again.


But the point of this thread. If no one responds, I understand and will not pout.

When I came here, I was a pitiful writer of poetry, only trying to release the pain of my childhood. I stuck around and learned a little bit. So many people I have learned from. However, those I have learned from, ( I am gonna use Anna as example, and hope she doesnt mind) I have LEARNED from. I have never tried to copy, or imitate anyone except in the challenges we had where that was the intent. I am thinking specifically of the time Anna mentioned where some of us tried to write in the style of DH. and it was a laughable, but very enjoyable exercise. BUt the result was, a different outlook on life and poetry. There is nothing wrong with that.

What I find terribly disturbing is being compared to someone else in a negative way. example...

I felt for a while that some people just said kind things about my work cause they knew me. Now I know better. The people here, for the most part are honorable. They are kind, they say nice things when they have nothing negative to say. That is not butt kissing, that is leaving a kind comment.

Anyway, I wrote a poem, under a new name, Catalina Frisco and posted it. The intent was to get honest FB, from people whom I admire. From people who didnt know it was me.I wanted to know if I was deluding myself and perhaps should just stop writing altogether.

The first email I got was anon, it said, "you sound like anna". okay, fine, I sould like anna. Anna is a gifted poet. She has a shutter eye view, she captures things I would never even notice. I responded with horrible anger. BUt it was NOT from being compared to Anna, it was because I WAS NOT compared to ME!!!!

I had in no way attempted to imitate her. I couldnt if I tried. I am Me, I write what comes out of ME.

NOw, I do sometimes rethink my word choices, my sentence structure, look at my subjects differently. That is not imitation,but
it might be emulation, I dunno.

comparing poets is impossible. I believe we have all been influenced by some other poet, either here on LIT, or from our childhood and when someone sees Anna in my poetry, that is of their device, not my intention, though it is a compliment.

The 2 times I have been "accused" of imitation, there was none except in th eye of the person who sent the FB< or whatever you want to call it.

I think I speak without thinking, lots of us do. NOt everyone is college educated, a super genius, or prodigy, whatever. BUt we have a voice. PLease people, stop comparing us, we are not cars, or fruit baskets, we are POETS. Individuals.

AS much as any of us try, we will fail if we aim to be another Anna, or DH. Am I so garden variety that anyone could imitate me? I hope not. When, and if I see a poem, that reminds me of one of my own, I dont freak out and ay, crap, damn copy cat. I am not so egotistical that I think, wow, Im so good that person copied me.

I sit back, and hope, that I was able in some small way, to influnece another poet. That i have contributed to this place, this society. I have never had any intention to hurt any one here. I apologize for the harsh words I brought to this board. I felt prodded, ridiculed and stupid. It made me doubt myself.

I felt as though I was not being given credit for someting iwrote and there for my work was trivialized and disrespected.

Look guys, this isnt the Pulitzer commission. We are just people, learning. When one person steps beyond that idea and sees his or her favorite poet in anything and everything that is good, they have lost the meaning of learning, the meaning of poetry. That is my opinion, just mine.


Now, I will ask, has anyone here been compared to someone they admire? How did it make you feel. Was the FB kind? or accusatory? and, did you change your writing style because of that FB...

thanks for listening, um, reading. Keep on writing, its what makes us who we are

maria

 

[WickedEve]

I've had a few of my poems (a year ago or more) compared to smithpeter's poetry. I told him about it at the time. Someone said my poems were smithpeterish. We thought it was funny, but at one time, I was greatly influenced by him. I wrote a poem called ... something about denis hale... maybe Reading Denis Hale? Anyway, I tried to copy dear denis' style (by the way, under another name at the time) and I got really good feedback. I was told that it was indeed denis like, yet my own voice was clear in it. I liked that comment. Not often, but occasionally I'll run into a poem that reminds me of something I had or would have written. I think it's cool that someone else out there may see things the way I do.

 

[Lauren Hynde]

Now, I will ask, has anyone here been compared to someone they admire? How did it make you feel. Was the FB kind? or accusatory? and, did you change your writing style because of that FB...

The best way to learn and grow as a poet is by reading, understanding, and inevitably emulating those you admire. It's a natural process, and nothing to be ashamed of.

When people catch on to it and notice the resemblance to other people's work, I tend to be pleased for two reasons: it means my writing can be compared (in whatever terms, good or bad) with the work of those I look up to; and it means others also read and enjoy the work I'm trying to emulate.

 

[Angeline]

I love that word snarky, sis. Sometimes i feel snarky. And, i have to say, ee often has a verrry snarky smile, but never mind that...

As most people that get within shouting distance of me know, I love Lester Young (isn't that right, Pat?). Also, I feel like talking about him today haha.

For the .04 people out there who haven't heard my rap on this, Lester was a jazz musician, active in the 1930s, 40s, and 50s (he died in '59). Anyway, if he is known for anything, it is having a unique style--said to have influenced everyone from Stan Getz and Mingus to BB King.

He once said (I'll paraphrase cause I can't find the quote) you gotta be original. when you start out, you listen to everyone and you practice the styles of who you like. you play their songs over and over and try to sound like them, but eventually your style evolves. at first it sort of sounds like the people you practice, but if you keep up it evolves into your own voice.

Count Basie called Lester a "stylist" in the sense that he had his own style.

That's not different from writing. I love Yeats and Neruda and a few others to the point where I think about what it is they do that I like, try to identify the qualities because I want to do it, too. If anything that's imitation that is both emulation and hommage. Maybe it is copying, but it's not a bad thing.

Anna and Denis are both stylists as are you, Eve, Tath, Liar, darkmaas, jd, jthserra, senna jawa--many I could name. Denis does amazing word runs; he's very improv and connects wildly different images in ways that make sense and moreso are thematic. That's why he's so good, lol.

Anna is similar, to me she adds a willingness to experiment that makes her do all sorts of fascinating things like blend prose and poetry and just see things differently than most people.

Eve and Senna are sorta similar (they can curse or smack me for this comparison, as the case may be). They're both spare--eve is more quirky and senna more ironic though.

We can learn from all their styles and others here. And we should. What else is the point of being here? Ok, the avatars, too.

If I write a poem that tries to do some of what Denis does, is that a bad thing? Especially if it helps me evolve my own voice?

 

[WickedEve]

Eve and Senna are sorta similar (they can curse or smack me for this comparison, as the case may be). They're both spare--eve is more quirky and senna more ironic though.

hmm... I need to curl up in a shadow and think some thoughts.

 

[Angeline]

hmm... I need to curl up in a shadow and think some thoughts.

you're two of my favorite writers here, so consider it a compliment whether or not you agree.

 

[WickedEve]

you're two of my favorite writers here, so consider it a compliment whether or not you agree.

not now... i'm in my shadow. happy shadow. happy shadow.

 

[Tathagata]

when I sent in my " winter poem" i said " think they'll know it's me?"
and did the eye rolly thing.

sometimes it drives me crazy because I can see me all over everything
but I also see who influenced me
I posted lyrics on the lyric thread yesterday...I hadn't noticed this before but the song I posted suddenly, to my ear, sounded like what I " hear" when I write.
Is anyone ever going to compare me to David Bowie??
NO
But I can hear it...
Along with Morrison, and Yeats, and Bukowski..and Waits
little bits of them here and there
I'll never be mistaken for any of them
but they do run through my stuff, maybe on stilts, but they do
and it's not a conscious thing.
My point is..if someone compares you with, or mistakes you for, someone else...it's not a bad thing.
it means that you may have " pieces" of their style or, as lauren said, the person reading is grasping to relate what they see and feel to something they know.
Their frame of reference may not include who you were thinking of...so they use someone you both know.
especially here

so...
if someone said to me..." you sound like...'
I'd say.." Hmmmmm really..lemme look again"
maybe I'd see it..maybe I wouldn't but i think it would be cool either way

 

[Liar]

Anyway, I wrote a poem, under a new name, Catalina Frisco and posted it. The intent was to get honest FB, from people whom I admire. From people who didnt know it was me.I wanted to know if I was deluding myself and perhaps should just stop writing altogether.

The first email I got was anon, it said, "you sound like anna". okay, fine, I sould like anna. Anna is a gifted poet. She has a shutter eye view, she captures things I would never even notice. I responded with horrible anger. BUt it was NOT from being compared to Anna, it was because I WAS NOT compared to ME!!!!

I had in no way attempted to imitate her. I couldnt if I tried. I am Me, I write what comes out of ME.

Chill.

You know, that only means one thing: That you have an admirable width to your writing. You can write in many different ways. Your poems are as varied in theme as well as in voice and your talent is versatile. I think that is a good thing, and one thing that I strive for in my own writing, to be able to find very different expressions from occation to occation.

That exact poem by you as Catalina Frisco maybe sounded a little like Anna's writing, enough for someone to see similarities. Which means that you can write like her. (I wish I could.)

Anyway, no. It's not imitation. It's not even emulation. it's assimilation, the most basic and most important tool we have as creative people.

We see something. A new concept, a new way of expressing things, a new perspective...by reading it, we gain an experience, and we find ways to make it a part of our own poetic arsenal, our bag of tricks that we use when we create our own poems. It's most often a subconscous thing, we read something, and it sticks. Next time we write, we come up with something that sounds good, most of the time now knowing that the inspiration of that particular passage was something with a similar structure or wording we read somewhere before.

Those who assimilate fewer expessions will also not evolve and grow as writers. There is actually a medical tem for people who doesn't have the ability (or only a very narrowed ability) to assimilate: Autism. The condition involves other things too, but that's an important part of it.

#L mnemonics student

 

[Liar]

I have been compared to as different and immensley talented Lit poets as Tathagatha, denis hale, Rybka and Icingsugar. Which makes me proud as hell.

 

[flyguy69]

I have been compared to a post, blood-tinged phlegm and female genitalia. Despite my affinity for the latter, none have been particularly flattering. I continue to emulate them in my writing, however.

 

[Maria2394]

thaks you all, are so supportive. I guess th ereal problem is that I dont really know myself yet. I have spent so much time caring for my family I forgot to look for myself.

I posted a few poems, now deletd, but angeline said they were reminiscent of neruda. I had no idea who he was, so I looked him up and fell in love with his voice.

It is indeed a compliment to be likened to so many wonderfully talented people. I just wanted people to maybe help me identify me, but I do realize now that is impossible.

Angeline, your Lester Young analogy is perfect. Now I see how many people were affected by him, and then after him, by Elvis, the beatles, Pink Floyd. ( love them!!)

Ohh...I just wish I cuoold get my range into focus, Liar. I was having a conversation with someone earlier about a disorder related to autism, which I had only heard of on the tele, and shes a doll, helped me rationlize it down to acceptable facts. I needed that.

Your assimilation connection reminded me of the Borg on Star Trek. You will be assimilated, there is no escape!. I have tried so long, esp when I was a kid, to be different!! thats my problem, I need to conform and go with the flow, let the words out.

I'll just be glad when my little garden isnt dead and gray.

 

[Maria2394]

I have been compared to a post, blood-tinged phlegm and female genitalia. Despite my affinity for the latter, none have been particularly flattering. I continue to emulate them in my writing, however.

You are teasing me, right? blood tinged phlegm?? I think i'd be whomping on somebody, lol.

seriously, if I compared you to anyone, it would be you. I think youre atmospheric, floaty, I love your poems. I see no connection to genitalia or phlegm...ohh, I was helping my daughter with Thomas Paines Common Sense last night, dugout my Nortons and it fel open to Thanatopsis, my daughter said, ugghh, you read that?? OMG, you LIKE that?


yeah, baby, I like that, I told her. She said I was weird.

Maybe flyguy, you remind me a little bit of Walt Whitman in a way I cannot explain yet. NO one here reminds me of Bryant...yet

but I have discovered the voices of Poe, TS ELiot ( I worship his feet and pen) and Whitman, so many, so many. I now I will find some of the people here in an edition of Nortons some day...looking forward to it

 

[annaswirls]

OKay, I will try my damndest to be very diplomatic and non-snarky here. ( I borrowed a word Ange uses a lot)


Okay. First off, I will be decent and apologize to Reltne for my choice of words. Perhaps I was harsh on him. I just thought HIS choice of words was offensive. That the "obvious" choices to him...etc, etc. Would not a phrase like, " My faves of the day are..." Let that die. I wont ever bring it up again.


But the point of this thread. If no one responds, I understand and will not pout.

When I came here, I was a pitiful writer of poetry, only trying to release the pain of my childhood. I stuck around and learned a little bit. So many people I have learned from. However, those I have learned from, ( I am gonna use Anna as example, and hope she doesnt mind) I have LEARNED from. I have never tried to copy, or imitate anyone except in the challenges we had where that was the intent. I am thinking specifically of the time Anna mentioned where some of us tried to write in the style of DH. and it was a laughable, but very enjoyable exercise. BUt the result was, a different outlook on life and poetry. There is nothing wrong with that.

What I find terribly disturbing is being compared to someone else in a negative way. example...

I felt for a while that some people just said kind things about my work cause they knew me. Now I know better. The people here, for the most part are honorable. They are kind, they say nice things when they have nothing negative to say. That is not butt kissing, that is leaving a kind comment.

Anyway, I wrote a poem, under a new name, Catalina Frisco and posted it. The intent was to get honest FB, from people whom I admire. From people who didnt know it was me.I wanted to know if I was deluding myself and perhaps should just stop writing altogether.

The first email I got was anon, it said, "you sound like anna". okay, fine, I sould like anna. Anna is a gifted poet. She has a shutter eye view, she captures things I would never even notice. I responded with horrible anger. BUt it was NOT from being compared to Anna, it was because I WAS NOT compared to ME!!!!

I had in no way attempted to imitate her. I couldnt if I tried. I am Me, I write what comes out of ME.

NOw, I do sometimes rethink my word choices, my sentence structure, look at my subjects differently. That is not imitation,but
it might be emulation, I dunno.

comparing poets is impossible. I believe we have all been influenced by some other poet, either here on LIT, or from our childhood and when someone sees Anna in my poetry, that is of their device, not my intention, though it is a compliment.

The 2 times I have been "accused" of imitation, there was none except in th eye of the person who sent the FB< or whatever you want to call it.

I think I speak without thinking, lots of us do. NOt everyone is college educated, a super genius, or prodigy, whatever. BUt we have a voice. PLease people, stop comparing us, we are not cars, or fruit baskets, we are POETS. Individuals.

AS much as any of us try, we will fail if we aim to be another Anna, or DH. Am I so garden variety that anyone could imitate me? I hope not. When, and if I see a poem, that reminds me of one of my own, I dont freak out and ay, crap, damn copy cat. I am not so egotistical that I think, wow, Im so good that person copied me.

I sit back, and hope, that I was able in some small way, to influnece another poet. That i have contributed to this place, this society. I have never had any intention to hurt any one here. I apologize for the harsh words I brought to this board. I felt prodded, ridiculed and stupid. It made me doubt myself.

I felt as though I was not being given credit for someting iwrote and there for my work was trivialized and disrespected.

Look guys, this isnt the Pulitzer commission. We are just people, learning. When one person steps beyond that idea and sees his or her favorite poet in anything and everything that is good, they have lost the meaning of learning, the meaning of poetry. That is my opinion, just mine.


Now, I will ask, has anyone here been compared to someone they admire? How did it make you feel. Was the FB kind? or accusatory? and, did you change your writing style because of that FB...

thanks for listening, um, reading. Keep on writing, its what makes us who we are

maria

Speaking on your Catalina poem, I think that when new names show up here, the first thing people do is try to figure out if it is a new person or just a new nic. as is often the case.


When I first came on, I got feedback asking if I was this person or that person in drag. Someone said I was a female denis hale. Someone suggested that I copulate with denis to form super poet babies. Someone said something about sp.

One of my nicks came out and said I was a cross between 2Rivers and Anna. Another said a feminine dh. I did not really take offense to them, I Thought it was kind of funny.

But the one time I tried to imitate dh on purpose, to respond to one of his poems (about taking batteries from a vibrator in revenge) was just for fun. It was a few times when i went more hard hitting that someone ( I do not remember) said I must have taken a hall pill to be able to write like that. That I thought was bizarre.

I think as we grow to know someone, we cannot help but absorb some of who they are, and incorporate it into who we are. Those of us who read each other a lot are going to rub off on each other. It is called growth.

And experimentation leads to discovery. Sometimes the discovery is: damn this is not ME at all! Sometimes the discovery is, wow that was kind of fun.


We all have moods, some of our moods bring out different styles. Damn it when I am pissed about society or freaked out by something I usually write in a much different way than when I am noticing how everything goes flat at twilight.


I know that once someone felt so badly that they stole something that I had written=--- and it was not true. They had read something that I had written in passion thread and taken it in their own direction. It felt a little strange to me at first, seeing pieces of my words (my words???) in another poem, but it was no big deal at all. I felt badly that she felt badly. Part of why we are here is to be inspired by each other

inspired to think in new ways
feel in different ways
accept peoples differences and grow to appreciated them


Maria, you DO have your own voice. Even when you experiment, you do. I have found myself at times writing more like you than usual. I usually see it later.

Tara inspired me to go back and pull some of my earlier poetry to see if I could edit it to make it better, or less offensive to em (I really hated my earlier lyrical stuff until I went back after I learned about it from Tara and others here)

Thank you Ange, Maria, Liar for the compliments. They do well to ease my discouragement after getting 2 rejection letters in 2 days.






I might stop submitting for a while and start actually writing some new stuff damn it.

 

[flyguy69]

You are teasing me, right? blood tinged phlegm?? I think i'd be whomping on somebody, lol.
...

Yes, someone once said my poetry was "deserving of hacking up blood". I took it to mean it had touched him very deeply.

 

[Maria2394]

Re: Re: Emulation, not imitation..what is the difference?

Speaking on your Catalina poem, I think that when new names show up here, the first thing people do is try to figure out if it is a new person or just a new nic. as is often the case.


~~~~


anna!! you just clicked it for me. remember you did that "who is it?" thread? You posted apoem and we voted on who we thought it was. haha, that did prove a lot and yet it proved not much

we do absorb from our environment, and the separate names things, yeah, that makes total sense. I never thought of that.

( looking for crowbar now, to pry open my narow mind

thanks

 

[Maria2394]

Yes, someone once said my poetry was "deserving of hacking up blood". I took it to mean it had touched him very deeply.

well then, you are a very kind, optimistic person.

 

[flyguy69]

well then, you are a very kind, optimistic person.

Ha! Now I have been compared to a kind, optimistic person! My status is rising!

 

[Liar]

Your assimilation connection reminded me of the Borg on Star Trek. You will be assimilated, there is no escape!. I have tried so long, esp when I was a kid, to be different!! thats my problem, I need to conform and go with the flow, let the words out.

The thing is, Star Trek got it all wrong. Assimilation kicks ass! Think of it as if you were the Borg. Everything you take in makes you bigger, stronger, smarter, better. it's not about getting your unique voice blended and watered out with other impressions and styles. It's about aquiring a multitude of skills, tools, money, karma, mana, whatever, to make it easier to steer the creative focus, let you better define your own voice, to be just as different as you wanna be.

You will not be assimilated -- you will assimilate. Resistance is not futile, but it is pretty silly.

 

[flyguy69]

The thing is, Star Trek got it all wrong. Assimilation kicks ass! Think of it as if you were the Borg. Everything you take in makes you bigger, stronger, smarter, better. it's not about getting your unique voice blended and watered out with other impressions and styles. It's about aquiring a multitude of skills, tools, money, karma, mana, whatever, to make it easier to steer the creative focus, let you better define your own voice, to be just as different as you wanna be.

You will not be assimilated -- you will assimilate. Resistance is not futile, but it is pretty silly.

And with any luck you get assimilated by Jeri Ryan. But not her creepy husband.

 

[foehn]

The thing is, Star Trek got it all wrong. Assimilation kicks ass! Think of it as if you were the Borg. Everything you take in makes you bigger, stronger, smarter, better. it's not about getting your unique voice blended and watered out with other impressions and styles. It's about aquiring a multitude of skills, tools, money, karma, mana, whatever, to make it easier to steer the creative focus, let you better define your own voice, to be just as different as you wanna be.

You will not be assimilated -- you will assimilate. Resistance is not futile, but it is pretty silly.

Somehow, I just liked the shit out of this.

Maria, your poems rock. One doesn't acquire a voice by fretting about it. Hell, I still don't have one. But I have to write!

Be your wonderful self! Eh?

 

[The_Fool]

Marie....darling.....I love it when you're snarky.....


Ignore the outside voices. Listen to the inside voices. Credit credible critique. Lampoon senseless criticism. Languish in somnolent melancholy, but only in your garden. Thank wonderful lascivious thoughts about everyone, anyone or no one. Cherish dreams and children….


….And quit worrying about what the silly fuckers think!

I may have to kick your ass…

Me

 

[Angeline]

Somehow, I just liked the shit out of this.

Maria, your poems rock. One doesn't acquire a voice by fretting about it. Hell, I still don't have one. But I have to write!

Be your wonderful self! Eh?

I remember a mentor saying to me that he wrote because he had to. It's true; it's the main reason imo.

 

[Maria2394]

foehn, fool, Liar, everyone. ya'll are great. I do listen to my voice...(s.) thats the problem. not being nutty here, okay, maybe a little, but each mood I have has its own voice and I cannot seem to get them to blend harmoniously, thats is where the problem lies, I think.

Im in a rut, I usually dont worry about my writing, when it comes, I let t out. If I force it, it becomes stubborn and belligerant..( i know I spelled that wrong, it looks wrong, it must be wrong...)

I need some liquid plumber for my brain, or something. But, I know the words will pop like a crocus as soon as the first spring days approach.

I know it sounds selfish, I know I worry a lot. I think though, that I have wanted to discuss this for a long while and didnt know how to bring it up.

the replies on this thread are truly helping me to sort it out, and i appreciate that ohh, so much

it is just amazing to me though, the range that some of the people on here have. I am constantly amazed. I wish I could do form, but I cant...yet. maybe just not ready for that? oh well

m

 

[Guest]

I recently had an imitation posted of one of my poems here on Lit—or more appriopately, a line(s) lifter who took liberties. The imitator was talented in the use of thesaurus of some of my lines and took literal use of other lines to create their poem—even used an exact line out of my poem to title theirs.

So, there is a big difference between emulation where a poet takes a style "test drive" then imitation, one who drives off with a poet's style and my thesaurus calls it plagiarism.

Yup—it should be emulation is the sincerest form of flattery, instead of imitation.




- neo