Empathy & the Brain

dr_mabeuse

seduce the mind
Joined
Oct 10, 2002
Posts
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Froom a Yahoo news story titled, "Scientists Say Everyone Can Read Minds":

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Empathy allows us to feel the emotions of others, to identify and understand their feelings and motives and see things from their perspective. How we generate empathy remains a subject of intense debate in cognitive science.

Some scientists now believe they may have finally discovered its root. We're all essentially mind readers, they say.

The idea has been slow to gain acceptance, but evidence is mounting.

Mirror neurons

In 1996, three neuroscientists were probing the brain of a macaque monkey when they stumbled across a curious cluster of cells in the premotor cortex, an area of the brain responsible for planning movements. The cluster of cells fired not only when the monkey performed an action, but likewise when the monkey saw the same action performed by someone else. The cells responded the same way whether the monkey reached out to grasp a peanut, or merely watched in envy as another monkey or a human did.

Because the cells reflected the actions that the monkey observed in others, the neuroscientists named them "mirror neurons."

Later experiments confirmed the existence of mirror neurons in humans and revealed another surprise. In addition to mirroring actions, the cells reflected sensations and emotions.

"Mirror neurons suggest that we pretend to be in another person's mental shoes," says Marco Iacoboni, a neuroscientist at the University of California, Los Angeles School of Medicine. "In fact, with mirror neurons we do not have to pretend, we practically are in another person's mind."

Since their discovery, mirror neurons have been implicated in a broad range of phenomena, including certain mental disorders. Mirror neurons may help cognitive scientists explain how children develop a theory of mind (ToM), which is a child's understanding that others have minds similar to their own. Doing so may help shed light on autism, in which this type of understanding is often missing.

Theory theory

Over the years, cognitive scientists have come up with a number of theories to explain how ToM develops. The "theory theory" and "simulation theory" are currently two of the most popular.

Theory theory describes children as budding social scientists. The idea is that children collect evidence -- in the form of gestures and expressions -- and use their everyday understanding of people to develop theories that explain and predict the mental state of people they come in contact with.

Vittorio Gallese, a neuroscientist at the University of Parma in Italy and one of original discovers of mirror neurons, has another name for this theory: he calls it the "Vulcan Approach," in honor of the Star Trek protagonist Spock, who belonged to an alien race called the Vulcans who suppressed their emotions in favor of logic. Spock was often unable to understand the emotions that underlie human behavior.

Gallese himself prefers simulation theory over this Vulcan approach.

Natural mind readers

Simulation theory states that we are natural mind readers. We place ourselves in another person's "mental shoes," and use our own mind as a model for theirs.

Gallese contends that when we interact with someone, we do more than just observe the other person's behavior. He believes we create internal representations of their actions, sensations and emotions within ourselves, as if we are the ones that are moving, sensing and feeling.

Many scientists believe that mirror neurons embody the predictions of simulation theory. "We share with others not only the way they normally act or subjectively experience emotions and sensations, but also the neural circuits enabling those same actions, emotions and sensations: the mirror neuron systems," Gallese told LiveScience.

Gallese points out, however, that the two theories are not mutually exclusive. If the mirror neuron system is defective or damaged, and our ability to empathize is lost, the observe-and-guess method of theory theory may be the only option left. Some scientists suspect this is what happens in autistic people, whose mental disorder prevents them from understanding the intentions and motives of others.

Tests underway

The idea is that the mirror neuron systems of autistic individuals are somehow impaired or deficient, and that the resulting "mind-blindness" prevents them from simulating the experiences of others. For autistic individuals, experience is more observed than lived, and the emotional undercurrents that govern so much of our human behavior are inaccessible. They guess the mental states of others through explicit theorizing, but the end result is a list -- mechanical and impersonal -- of actions, gestures and expressions void of motive, intent, or emotion.

Several labs are now testing the hypothesis that autistic individuals have a mirror neuron deficit and cannot simulate the mental states of others.

One recent experiment by Hugo Theoret and colleagues at the University of Montreal showed that mirror neurons normally active during the observation of hand movements in non-autistic individuals are silent in those who have autism.

"You either simulate with mirror neurons, or the mental states of others are completely precluded to you," said Iacoboni.
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http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tm...27/sc_space/scientistssayeveryonecanreadminds
 
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A very interesting theory and probably quite true... also quite variable from individual to individual.

Some people have a very strong sence of empathy for others. They feel their pain.. but also understand their motivations and even their goals. Board games may be a good example. Good players understand their opponents plans and prevent them. Business is another.

Other people seem to have little ability to understand others.
 
I've know for years I can read minds.

I don't though. Most people's minds are dark and scary places.
 
Empathy plays a HUGE role in my life.

(And also explains our voyeurism)
 
Vicarious living throuigh neural clusters.

Wowie.

Cool stuff, Zoot!
 
I was reading an article about a theory that quantum entanglement is a possible cause of ESP. The idea is that particles becaome tangled on a quantum level and movement over here is replicated over there, without any physical contact.

The Earl
 
I think you have to have a very good sense of empathy to write, but I also think that too much empathy can be crippling these days. People who feel other people's feelings too acutely either become saints or they go crazy.

I also think that a certain lack of empathy is an advantage in getting ahead in our society. I think empathy is the basis of conscience. It's seeing how your actions affect other people.

I also think that an overly-developed emathetic sense makes it almost impossible to hate anyone, and hate's so important these days.

I could never be a businessman, for example, because I couldn't bear to screw someone. I couldn't take something that cost me 2 cents to make and turn around and sell it for $4.98. To run a company like Enron and just plunder the employee's retirement accounts takes a total lack of empathy.

It would be really interesting to see if they find these empathy neurons in the brains of non-social animals and predators. I'd bet they don't.
 
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Scientists Say Everyone Can Read Minds

From our Los Angeles Correspondent, Josie Blanksky

Hey, gals! A welcome change from rummaging the garbage cans of the rich and famous for this tired old hack.

Egghead Marco Iacoboni (Rhymes with Whako-Bony) claims our brains are wired so we can read each others minds.

Iacoboni (35, single), lists his favorite food as spaghetti with clams and tiramisu. And he wears his shirts loose. Yowza. Betcha can guess what's going on in my mind right now, Marco!

Ciao,

Josie.
 
Sub Joe said:
Scientists Say Everyone Can Read Minds

From our Los Angeles Correspondent, Josie Blanksky

Hey, gals! A welcome change from rummaging the garbage cans of the rich and famous for this tired old hack.

Egghead Marco Iacoboni (Rhymes with Whako-Bony) claims our brains are wired so we can read each others minds.

Iacoboni (35, single), lists his favorite food as spaghetti with clams and tiramisu. And he wears his shirts loose. Yowza. Betcha can guess what's going on in my mind right now, Marco!

Ciao,

Josie.

Joe, as always, you take Dadaism to a whole new level.

The Earl
 
I have alot of Empathy. I empathise with just about everyone on some level or another.

I don't have a clue how I do it, I just do. I tend to know what people want me to say to make them feel better too. Very helpful I've found :D
 
dr_mabeuse said:
I think you have to have a very good sense of empathy to write, but I also think that too much empathy can be crippling these days. People who feel other people's feelings too acutely either become saints or they go crazy.

I also think that a certain lack of empathy is an advantage in getting ahead in our society. I think empathy is the basis of conscience. It's seeing how your actions affect other people.

I also think that an overly-developed emathetic sense makes it almost impossible to hate anyone, and hate's so important these days.

I could never be a businessman, for example, because I couldn't bear to screw someone. I couldn't take something that cost me 2 cents to make and turn around and sell it for $4.98. To run a company like Enron and just plunder the employee's retirement accounts takes a total lack of empathy.

It would be really interesting to see if they find these empathy neurons in the brains of non-social animals and predators. I'd bet they don't.


You're right that a lack of empathy in business allows people to turn a blind-eye to the effects of their actions. The more removed the decision makers are from the "victim," the easier it is for them to make potentially damaging decisions.

Empathy can also be exceedingly useful in business. I'm the kind of person who can sit in a meeting and walk out knowing exactly what people were thinking, but didn't actually say. It's a great skill to use for corporate relationship management, mediation, negotiation, and sales.

The trick is to develop the skill and use it, but not allow the empathy to drain you in the process.

p/s - as I was typing this reply, my cat noticed the dancing nana in the corner of the screen and stared at it as though hypnotized. I know exactly how she felt.
 
LadyJeanne said:
The trick is to develop the skill and use it, but not allow the empathy to drain you in the process.
I like what Zoot said about either being a saint or going crazy.. I'm stuck somewhere on both those levels most days *chuckle*

It's gotten to the point that I try to overpower my own empathy, shut it off... I'm so sick of being nice to everyone, sacrificing my own pleasure/happiness/sanity to make someone else feel good about themselves. My ex-wife is a good example... I still go out of my way to alleviate her burdens, and she knows I will do it too.

So, Zoot forgot one aspect of it: Those who have empathy are often used.

PS - This is not something I normally discuss, but it is in fact a very large part of my life. Shaped me into who I am today... and all the emotional breakdowns along the way.
 
Previously, I considered empathy to be the use of a person’s imagination, trying to put themself into another person’s position and imagining how they would feel. For me, that definition seemed to work, because the people who lack empathy almost invariably also lack imagination.

However, if there is something to this theory, I don’t expect it to be fully accepted until someone learns how to plant feeling about an advertiser’s product or service into the minds of popular celebrities, with which the remainder of the hoi polloi can then empathise.
 
tolyk said:
I like what Zoot said about either being a saint or going crazy.. I'm stuck somewhere on both those levels most days *chuckle*

It's gotten to the point that I try to overpower my own empathy, shut it off... I'm so sick of being nice to everyone, sacrificing my own pleasure/happiness/sanity to make someone else feel good about themselves. My ex-wife is a good example... I still go out of my way to alleviate her burdens, and she knows I will do it too.

So, Zoot forgot one aspect of it: Those who have empathy are often used.

PS - This is not something I normally discuss, but it is in fact a very large part of my life. Shaped me into who I am today... and all the emotional breakdowns along the way.

Very true. I was talking about this with some one else. Is the fault of an empath that they are used, for being completely unable to help caring and trying to alleviate the other person's pain, or do people just abuse empaths? Do empaths in fact draw people with problems; of do those people realize that they can get help, no matter what from that person. Are empaths enablers or victims?
 
Had a big debate with a friend about the apathy-empathy-sympathy spectrum and where empathy fits along it.

By definition, sympathy is the stronger feeling -- yet we typically consider empathy to be the more "in depth."
 
impressive said:
Had a big debate with a friend about the apathy-empathy-sympathy spectrum and where empathy fits along it.

By definition, sympathy is the stronger feeling -- yet we typically consider empathy to be the more "in depth."

I always thought that "sympathy" wasn't as strong as empathy, that it kind of included the distance necessary for feelings of pity. You can feel sympathy for someone without feeling empathy with them. Like, you can feel sympathy for someone whose cat has died, but that's different from actually feeling their loss.

I haven't looked the words up, though, so I might be wrong.

I guess that's the difference. You feel sympathy for someone. You feel empathy with them.

And yes, empathetic people do get used. We often put other people's needs before our own. Maybe we even feel their needs more than we feel our own.
 
dr_mabeuse said:
I haven't looked the words up, though, so I might be wrong.

I guess that's the difference. You feel sympathy for someone. You feel empathy with them.

Look 'em up. You might be surprised. ;)
 
dr_mabeuse said:
I always thought that "sympathy" wasn't as strong as empathy, that it kind of included the distance necessary for feelings of pity. You can feel sympathy for someone without feeling empathy with them. Like, you can feel sympathy for someone whose cat has died, but that's different from actually feeling their loss.

Sympathy is the stronger... i.e. sympathetic pains.

Sympathy:
1
a. A relationship or an affinity between people or things in which whatever affects one correspondingly affects the other.

b. Mutual understanding or affection arising from this relationship or affinity.

2
a. The act or power of sharing the feelings of another.
b. A feeling or an expression of pity or sorrow for the distress of another; compassion or commiseration


Empathy:
1. Identification with and understanding of another's situation, feelings, and motives

---

Empathy is often confused with sympathy, but it's actually the reverse.

Empathy means you identify or understand... sympathy is when you 'feel' with them.


Sincerely,
ElSol
 
A famous philosphy article, "What is it like to be a Bat?" dealt with the problem of what it means to be conscious. The argument was basically that a conscious thing is something you can empathize with, something you can ask "What is like to be them?"
 
elsol said:
Empathy is often confused with sympathy, but it's actually the reverse.

Empathy means you identify or understand... sympathy is when you 'feel' with them.

Yup. :D
 
What happens if you have oodles of empathy, but brain function has often been proven to be seriously lacking? Doesn't that disprove the theory, or is my brain letting me down yet again?
 
3 Legged Donkey said:
What happens if you have oodles of empathy, but brain function has often been proven to be seriously lacking? Doesn't that disprove the theory, or is my brain letting me down yet again?
You just don't have any Horse sense. You're a silly hass.
 
Very interesting thread. I'd like to throw in an example that goes contrary to what others have suggested about empathy relating to being nice.

The example is that of the cruel man who derives joy from the pain of others.
According to Scheler, this man takes his pleasure by sensing the pain of others in empathy.

This goes to say to say that when we sense the feeling of someone else in empathy, it is not the case that we feel a real feeling that has somehow been evoked in us.


DrF
 
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