Electrical fires and the fun that comes of this.

[SeaCat]

Well a while back I decided I needed an electrical socket out on the patio so I went the cheap way and put an adaptor into the light socket out there. (Okay so I had to slightly modify the socket, but it was nothing interesting.)

Tonight as I was doing some deepfrying the light went out and the deepfryier powered down. When I checked the socket it fell out in my hand with a nice lightshow complete with sparks and flames. (Yikes)

Power was shut down to that socket and the power cord for the deepfryer was plugged into a socket inside.

It took me a bit but I not only removed the remains of the adaptor but I also took the light assembly off the wall. No damage to the wires but the adaptor was toast. (Who knows why.)

I suppose the entire light assembly will be replaced tomorrow with one having a built in electrical socket so I can still have power on the Patio.

Oh and dinner was good. Not quite enough spice on the chicken but it was better than many of the fast food joints around here.

Cat

 

[rgraham666]

Yipe!

Glad to hear you're OK, Cat.

 

[blackhaus7]

One of the best things I've done is made good friends with an electrician. We wired the entire basement. (It took some good beer to do it, too.) And I have great outdoor outlets. All wired into the breaker box.

It ain't what you know, it's WHO you know.

 

[Aurora Black]

I'm glad you're okay, Cat.

 

[lucky-E-leven]

GFCI outlets. Every home wiring person's best friend.

 

[Guest]

.....

 

[Liar]

Holy cannoli.

That's one of the few things I'm anal about - electric installations. Got it taught from a proper elecrician, and I follow his advce like the holy scripture. Whenever I do something that requires some thought, like outdoor wiring or hooking up an extra phase, I still call him for help.

Sounds to me like your're having a grounding problem, but I can't say for sure.

Dran's suggestion would be my choice too.

 

[Guest]

And here I thought your new idiot neighbors burned their trailer down.

*sigh*

Well, maybe next time.

(Glad you and the missus are OK, Cat.)

 

[SeaCat]

LOLOL

Some good advice here.

Tomorrow I will be investigating further but I suspect it was a faulty adaptor. Either way the entire assembly for the outside socket will be replaced, and rewired through a new breaker. (Actually two of them. One inside and one outside just below the light assembly.)

My neighbors saw my Propane Tank system for the stove and decided they were going to mimic it. (As told to me by Papa Bear.) I will of course be closing the storm shutters on that side of the trailer. I have more than a little experience in setting these things up, I have done so in more trailers and campers than I care to think about. He, as he readily admitted, has no experience in it but thinks it should be easy enough with some flex pipe and a couple of couplings. I Like Fireworks!

The daughter meanwhile got into a bit of a huff this afternoon. A friend of hers was over this afternoon and saw my wife and I playing catch. (My wife was wearing a Bikini Top and a Mini Skirt.) He must have liked it because he started talking with my wife. She didn't like this, came out and ordered him back inside and then proceeded to give my wif hell about her provocative clothing. My wife put up with this for a bit before shutting her up by threatening to call the E.P.A. on her for being an eyesore as well as a mental health hazard. (She was wearing nothing but a string Bikini. *shudder*) We haven't heard from them since.

Cat

 

[Weird Harold]

Tomorrow I will be investigating further but I suspect it was a faulty adaptor. Either way the entire assembly for the outside socket will be replaced, and rewired through a new breaker. (Actually two of them. One inside and one outside just below the light assembly.)

I don't think the adapter was faulty, I think a light socket just isn't designed to carry the same kind of current as an electrical outlet does. The light switch that controls that socket is probably the next weakest point in the circuit and should be upgraded to something with a higher amperage rating, too -- something designed to handle switched outlets instead of a lights-only circuit.

 

[shereads]

I made sparks once by pulling some wires that maybe I wouldn't have pulled if I had thought about it some more.

Electricity could catch on, if they'd think of a way to prevent it from throwing an impatient person across her own kitchen.

 

[JustaJerk]

Regarding your light adapter issue:
The light fixture is probably rated for a 60 watt light bulb.
Watts = Voltage X Amperes
60watts = 120volts X ???amps
A regular 60 watt light bulb draws 1/2 amp.
Your deep fryer is probably rated about 600 watts. (you can check the label) It was drawing 5 amps through your adapter and light fixture.
So many amps running through a fixture rated for a tenth of that will cause solder connections to melt, plastic insulaters to melt/burn. I'm glad you only got a light show for it.
Run a separate GROUNDED outlet outside from your electrical panel. Use a GFCI breaker at the box, NOT one outside. If moisture gets into the outlet box outside, the breaker will still top the flow of electricity. Placing the GFCI in the outlet, the moisture could still short the wiring/burn the trailer.

Sorry to hear about your neighbors. Are they still pending approval? Or has it gone through?

 

[JustaJerk]

I made sparks once by pulling some wires that maybe I wouldn't have pulled if I had thought about it some more.

Electricity could catch on, if they'd think of a way to prevent it from throwing an impatient person across her own kitchen.

I've never been thrown by electricity. But the wall behind me has smacked me upside the head!

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

I don't think the adapter was faulty, I think a light socket just isn't designed to carry the same kind of current as an electrical outlet does. The light switch that controls that socket is probably the next weakest point in the circuit and should be upgraded to something with a higher amperage rating, too -- something designed to handle switched outlets instead of a lights-only circuit.

Harold is correct. Since it's late the equation is fuzzy but the electric light socket is probably on a 15 amp circuit. The actual drop across the lamp with a 60 watt bulb is probably less than 3 amps, but the circuit is most likely shared with other appliances inside your house (maybe even the plug-in circuit you were using for the deep fryer).

By NAEEC code, all outside circuits and bathroom and kitchen circuits within reach of a porcelin fixture must be on a GFCI circuit. This can either be a GFCI breaker at the service panel or a GFCI receptical someplace in the circuit. Depending on the age of your house, one of the tricks that electrical subcontractors used a few years ago was to put the kitchen sink, bathroom sink and all exterior recepticals on a single circuit to save panel space and wire. Those very often had to be reset because of overload from hair dryers, barbeque roticeries, exterior lights and kitchen appliances operating all at the same time.

A licenced electrician repairing the inside circuit is a good idea even if it doesn't need to be replaced. The outside light (and an outside plug-in receptical on the same circuite if you want) should be on a separte GFCI circuit from the service panel.

Hope that helps.

JJ

 

[Weird Harold]

Harold is correct. Since it's late the equation is fuzzy but the electric light socket is probably on a 15 amp circuit. The actual drop across the lamp with a 60 watt bulb is probably less than 3 amps, but the circuit is most likely shared with other appliances inside your house (maybe even the plug-in circuit you were using for the deep fryer).

JustAJerk got the formula correct -- a 60 watt bulb draws 0.5 amps. The light socket itself is probably rated for one or two amps. Even though it says not to use more than a sixty-watt bulb that is more because of the heat the bulb generates than the current it draws; especially if it's a closed outdoor fixture (with a globe)

Any adapter that converts a light socket to an outlet has to work within the currrent limits of the socket it's screwed into -- which is generally far less than the nominal 15 amps printed on the breaker for the circuit.

 

[matriarch]

Holy cannoli.

That's one of the few things I'm anal about - electric installations. Got it taught from a proper elecrician, and I follow his advce like the holy scripture. Whenever I do something that requires some thought, like outdoor wiring or hooking up an extra phase, I still call him for help.

Sounds to me like your're having a grounding problem, but I can't say for sure.

Dran's suggestion would be my choice too.

New laws in UK, heavy duty stuff like that kind of wiring is only to be done by a qualified, certified electrician. Of course, if you choose to do it yourself, that's fine, but it will completely invalidate any home insurance you may have if anything burns down.

Ain't worth the risk. I've cultivated the friendship of a very good electrician. And a plumber. Looking for a damn good locksmith now and I'm all set.

 

[Weird Harold]

New laws in UK, heavy duty stuff like that kind of wiring is only to be done by a qualified, certified electrician. Of course, if you choose to do it yourself, that's fine, but it will completely invalidate any home insurance you may have if anything burns down.

Most building codes in the US have a similar requirement, but also have an escape clause for DIYers; You can do the work yourself, but it has to be inspected and approved by a Licensed Electrician.

 

[oggbashan]

Electrical Tales

When househunting for our first house on a tight budget, one of the things I looked at was the state of the electrical wiring because we couldn't afford major rewiring as well as the mortgage.

House 1: The house had been rewired according to the estate agent's details. I looked at the fuze box. The 1910 wiring was still in place. Each socket outlet had been replaced with new cheap modern, but the wires were the original. Using the system with anything powerful would have caused a fire inside the wall. The water heating system was unique. The pipe from the gas boiler ran to the hot water tank and a return went back to the boiler. There was no way of introducing water into that closed system, nor of taking it out. It was a continuous loop.

House 2: I couldn't find how the wiring got from the ground floor to the floor above - until I looked in the fireplace. The wires had been run inside a water pipe connected to the old back boiler. Once a fire was lit, the water in the abck boiler would turn to steam, steam heat the electrical wiring until the water boiled away, and then burn it.

House 3: No light switches upstairs. One light switch in hall and very few (three) sockets downstairs. Tracing the wiring back I found it was connected to a large 24 volt truck battery. The main lighting system was gas installed about 1890.

House 4: The owner had bought a run down house to do it up for sale. Inside the meter cupboard was a prohibition notice. The new wiring was so incompetent that they wouldn't supply electricity until it had been removed and replaced by a qualified electrician. The bath sat in the middle of what had been a bedroom. The water pipes dropped straight down from the ceiling to taps suspended in mid-air above the end of the bath. The bath didn't have a plug hole. It would have to be emptied by buckets.

House 5. Inside the meter cupboard was damp and musty. The wiring was wet. I looked for rising damp or a broken downpipe but couldn't see anything wrong. All the walls were damp. some running with water. As we walked up the hill away from the house we looked back. There was a hole eight feet by ten feet in the roof.

My old house before rewiring: In most rooms there were clock points to run electric clocks. Clock points, now obsolete, were rated and fuzed at one amp each. In one room the owner had tapped into the clock point circuit and attached a double 13 amp socket. The clock point's one amp fuze had been replaced with a nail.

My house after rewiring: The house was rewired by a professional. After he had finished I decided to decorate one of the rooms that used to have wall-lights removed long before we bought the house. Where the each wall-lights had been a small plywood plaque had been fitted over the junction boxes. I removed the plaques and tested the wiring with a testing screwdriver. On three walls the wires were dead and I could remove them. On the fourth wall the wiring was odd, and much newer. It was covered with transparent plastic of the sort that used to be used for bedside lamps, and plastered into the wall. The other sockets had been at the end of conduits.

I put my tester on the wires. The indicator bulb blew and the last half inch of the probe melted. The plaster exploded from the wall as a flame ran up to the ceiling. I put it out with a CO2 fire extinguisher and called my electrician.

He followed the charred wire into the bathroom. Eventually he found the connection. It had been wired into the back of the immersion heater circuit - a 30 amp circuit - with wire intended to be used with no more than a 60 watt bulb. The immersion heater circuit was the only one he hadn't replaced because we were about to install central heating and the whole circuit would be renewed then...

Og

 

[glynndah]

An electrician once told me there were only 2 rules for amateurs to learn about electricity:

1. It's really fast.
2. It wants to kill you.

 

[Stella_Omega]

An electrician once told me there were only 2 rules for amateurs to learn about electricity:

1. It's really fast.
2. It wants to kill you.

That is so good!
I do a lot of handy-work around, but I don't do electric- unless I took some lessons, and I'd like to.


Oh, yeah, and Seacat- your wife would be provocative in a burkha, you know quite well...

Here's hoping Poppa Bear burns the trailor down!

 

[shereads]

Most building codes in the US have a similar requirement, but also have an escape clause for DIYers; You can do the work yourself, but it has to be inspected and approved by a Licensed Electrician.

I don't think the previous owners of my house were fully cognizant of that requirement. As evidence, I present this quote from the electrician I hired to add a bathroom outlet, when he got his first look at what was behind the electrical panel:

"Jesus Christ!"

 

[oggbashan]

My old house had seven fuze boxes scattered around the building including one in the loft.

The main supply had a naked knife-edge switch with a foot-long handle rated at 1000 amps. The twin primary circuits had 500 amp fuzes.

There was a letter from the electricity supplier addressed to the new owner offering an industrial rate of supply because so much electricity had been used by the previous owner who heated the house with 30 electric fires...

I changed to gas-fired central heating. 27 years later my bills for the year are less than the previous owner had paid for one quarter's electricity - without allowing for inflation.

Og

 

[shereads]

When househunting for our first house on a tight budget, one of the things I looked at was the state of the electrical wiring because we couldn't afford major rewiring as well as the mortgage.

House 1: The house had been rewired according to the estate agent's details. I looked at the fuze box. The 1910 wiring was still in place. Each socket outlet had been replaced with new cheap modern, but the wires were the original. Using the system with anything powerful would have caused a fire inside the wall. The water heating system was unique. The pipe from the gas boiler ran to the hot water tank and a return went back to the boiler. There was no way of introducing water into that closed system, nor of taking it out. It was a continuous loop.

House 2: I couldn't find how the wiring got from the ground floor to the floor above - until I looked in the fireplace. The wires had been run inside a water pipe connected to the old back boiler. Once a fire was lit, the water in the abck boiler would turn to steam, steam heat the electrical wiring until the water boiled away, and then burn it.

House 3: No light switches upstairs. One light switch in hall and very few (three) sockets downstairs. Tracing the wiring back I found it was connected to a large 24 volt truck battery. The main lighting system was gas installed about 1890.

House 4: The owner had bought a run down house to do it up for sale. Inside the meter cupboard was a prohibition notice. The new wiring was so incompetent that they wouldn't supply electricity until it had been removed and replaced by a qualified electrician. The bath sat in the middle of what had been a bedroom. The water pipes dropped straight down from the ceiling to taps suspended in mid-air above the end of the bath. The bath didn't have a plug hole. It would have to be emptied by buckets.

House 5. Inside the meter cupboard was damp and musty. The wiring was wet. I looked for rising damp or a broken downpipe but couldn't see anything wrong. All the walls were damp. some running with water. As we walked up the hill away from the house we looked back. There was a hole eight feet by ten feet in the roof.

My old house before rewiring: In most rooms there were clock points to run electric clocks. Clock points, now obsolete, were rated and fuzed at one amp each. In one room the owner had tapped into the clock point circuit and attached a double 13 amp socket. The clock point's one amp fuze had been replaced with a nail.

My house after rewiring: The house was rewired by a professional. After he had finished I decided to decorate one of the rooms that used to have wall-lights removed long before we bought the house. Where the each wall-lights had been a small plywood plaque had been fitted over the junction boxes. I removed the plaques and tested the wiring with a testing screwdriver. On three walls the wires were dead and I could remove them. On the fourth wall the wiring was odd, and much newer. It was covered with transparent plastic of the sort that used to be used for bedside lamps, and plastered into the wall. The other sockets had been at the end of conduits.

I put my tester on the wires. The indicator bulb blew and the last half inch of the probe melted. The plaster exploded from the wall as a flame ran up to the ceiling. I put it out with a CO2 fire extinguisher and called my electrician.

He followed the charred wire into the bathroom. Eventually he found the connection. It had been wired into the back of the immersion heater circuit - a 30 amp circuit - with wire intended to be used with no more than a 60 watt bulb. The immersion heater circuit was the only one he hadn't replaced because we were about to install central heating and the whole circuit would be renewed then...

Og

The Golden Rule of Buying a Home, as I learned too late: do not hire a home inspection company based on the recommendation of your realtor. It doesn't matter that you're paying for the inspection; what matters is that realtor recommendations will dry up if the inspector screws up too many home sales by finding problems.

The only thing this company could find wrong with my 1938 house was listed on the plumbing section of their report as "cracked grout." The other note on their report was one I pointed out to the inspector: the main electrical feed to the house hadn't been raised when a deck was built beneath it, and a tall child could have reached up and grabbed it.

I learned later that they overlooked code violations in both the electrical and plumbing systems that were easily evident to anyone who knew what to look for: the three-pronged outlets that indicate the presence of a ground wire were just for show; nothing was grounding them. There was evidence of smoke damage inside the electrical panel, where most of the wiring was still the kind that's attached to cloth tape. There was so little water pressure in the hot-water line, it was impossible to get a warm shower.

I took the inspection company to small claims court - the only thing I could do without the expense of hiring an attorney of my own. They came armed with a lawyer; I came with a detailed report that my plumber had been kind enough to write for me, detailing no fewer than 10 code violations that were visible to the naked eye - and a length of pipe he'd removed from the hot-water line, that was so corroded there was almost nothing left but rust.

In small claims court, the maximum I could ask for was $2000 plus court expenses. It's cost me many times that to make repairs that the seller would have had to make under the standard sales contract, if the inspection company had done their job. But I made the bastards squirm.

We were required to meet with a mediator, whose job is to get the plaintiff and defendant to reach a settlement rather than taking the case to trial. The other side's lawyer maintained - and the mediator agreed - that according to the inspection contract, they accepted no liability whatsoever. They offered to refund the $400 I'd paid for half an hour of the inspector's time. I might have accepted it, if only to spare myself the time and effort of going to trial, if not for something their lawyer said:

I had pointed out that the report didn't just reflect oversights, but blatant untruths: electrical outlets were described as "grounded" and "up to code'" water pressure was listed as "good to very good," on both the hot and cold water lines. Their lawyer blurted out that if the inspector "turns on a faucet and some water comes out, he's met his obligation." He smiled when he said it.

That's when I told the mediator I wanted a jury trial.



I don't have much faith in juries when cases are complicated, or a matter of life and death. But I was confident that a panel of ordinary people - hearing that a professional inspector charging hundreds of dollars could complete a detailed, 15-item plumbing report simply by turning the faucets and confirming that some water came out - would wreak vengeance. The small print, be damned.

The word 'jury' got me new plumbing, repayment of my court fees, a refund of the inspection fee, and a congratulatory handshake from the inspection company's lawyer, who said "You didn't need an attorney. I'm just glad you didn't hit me with that pipe."



I replied that if I ever hit him with a pipe, it would be a better pipe than that one.

If I'd had my own lawyer on retainer and time on my hands, I'd have got new wiring, too. And maybe something extra to make them sorry. Then I might have hit them with the pipe.

A year later, I saw a TV expose on home inspection companies. To prove that many of these companies are in the pockets of the realtors who recommend them, '20/20' set up hidden-camera home inspections at houses with defects serious enough that they might cause a buyer to back out of a sale. A realtor cooperated and wore a wire. She got an inspector on tape agreeing to 'overlook' a roof badly in need of repair and faulty electrical wiring. Electrical fires kill people. They didn't care.

Trust no one.

Rule Number Two: don't pull out the wires to disconnect a kitchen exhaust fan that won't turn off. If you must do so, without first turning off the electricity at the panel, wear a pillow strapped to your ass.



I wish that had been someone else's fault. I'd have sued myself, but I couldn't prove any lasting damage.

 

[Svenskaflicka]

When I went to China, I saw electrical wiring that made me shiver despite the heat. They had tied them together like shoe laces...

 

[JustaJerk]

shereads,
Another avenue of vengence (if you're in the States), are the Fair Disclosure Laws. The seller IS required to list known defects. At the very least, they should have known about the poor plumbing. It almost sounds like the seller did the wiring of the outlets themselves to save a few bucks. Hence, they would have known about the wiring.

At the very least, you could have cancelled the sales contract. You certainly have grounds to make them pay for the repairs.

Granted, it would all take time and lawyers. That's were you really get screwed with these people. They know that most people won't bother.
Justa