Editing Issues -- Thoughts, please?

[SweetErika]

I've been in the following type of situation more than once, and would really appreciate any input from other editors (author perspectives are also welcome, of course):

A request for my opinion on the overall story and whether or not it'll meet Lit standards arrives. The author claims to have already edited the piece. The subject matter and amount of work to be done are suitable, so I agree to take it on.

When I get the story in Word, there are a bunch of spelling errors clearly underlined in red. Quite a few sentences are structured like this one with no punctuation and what's clearly a run-on sentence and oh god I think my head's going to explode. [That's an example, folks. ] Commas are few and far between, and semicolons are nonexistent, in spite of the fact that Word is pointing out some of the places they should be used. There are plenty of syntax and word-choice errors, too.

So, after finding 20+ errors on the first page alone, I'm really wondering what the author means by, "I already edited this." I completely understand that some people just have trouble with English and writing. That's fine, and I'm very happy to help them fix the stories up and learn where they're going awry. I'm not picking on the non-native speakers either, because I know how hard it is to learn and write proficiently in English. However, is it that tough to use a spellchecker, or fix the mistakes Word points out? I'm also wondering how I'll deal with this piece and the author.

With the above in mind, here are some rough questions, though please feel free to add other thoughts:

- What would you do in this situation? Would you just go ahead and edit it? If so, would you comment on/highlight every error (I use the Word Insert Comment feature, finding the results of Track Changes too difficult for some authors to decipher, but would love to hear how others deal with a gazillion, often repetitive, errors)?

Or, would you send the story back to the author with a list of the most common errors, examples and resources, along with a request for them to do their best to fix them before sending it back to you?

Would you ask the author to review what they already edited?

- As an editor, what are your standards for the pieces you're willing to work on? Do you insist authors show some effort to fix what they can on their own? If so, how do you differentiate between someone who hasn't made an effort and one who has? Spelling errors caught by Word are generally a clue for me, but perhaps there are other things I'm unaware of?

- Assuming there are no glaring clues, how do you distinguish the authors who really need help and want to improve from those who just want someone to do the work for them?



I've read all of the tips for editors here I've been able to find, including LadyC's great essays. I have also had great editing experiences and established good, lasting relationships with my authors, including those with pieces that had tons of errors. Well, except for that one author who never acknowledged they had received my edited copy (though I understand that happens every now and then). I'm definitely still learning the ropes, however, and this seems like a perfect opportunity to benefit from others' experiences and advice!

Thank you for reading this, and I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

 

[RogueLurker]

duplicate post ... oops.

 

[RogueLurker]

And I thought I asked hard questions.

I'll start the ball rolling ...

Editing means different things to different people, ... they may have spell check disabled (not sure if you can) or it could be a different language dictionary on their system ... I get caught at work like that, the IT guys set me up with with French as default ... so all the English words look mispelled. They could mean that they edited for content or that they wrote several drafts while working on the story, so you aren't getting the first version.

Personally, I would probably go ahead and edit it. But I'm pretty much of a sucker for coloured fonts. I've also been extremely lucky with the authors I've matched up with. Not every time .. but most of them.

Just as the author has to set the expecations of what they want from the edit (proofing, content, commentary, etc), I think that the editor has to set the expecations of what is expected from the author. Many authors have never dealt with editing and dont' really understand what is involved or how time consuming it can be, and most, if you tell them up front, will be willing to meet you halfway. If I do have a particularly colourful edit (lots of red font and yellow highlights), the author is usually apologetic, appreciative and more than willing to take some extra steps the next time before sending it for an edit. It's a learing experience and I think most people are willing to step up.

It really depends on how long the doc is, how much time you have and how many changes need to be made. You might want to edit the first page or two, point out the errors and send it back to the author for a "preview" with a nice note explaining that alot of these errors can be rectified with spell check and that once they have had a chance to review your editing style and used the spell check, that they could send it back.

I do think that most of the authors who take the time to come to the EF and ask for help are sincere in their requests and are looking to improve thier stories. I trust most people at first. If they say that they are looking for help or improvement, I will believe them and am willing to pitch in and give as much help as I am able. If a pattern emerges, then I may decline future work. I can't stress enough .. I've been lucky in not running into this very often.

For how people edit .. we had a thread a few months ago where the general consensus was that nobody really liked track changes and we all tend to mark up the document with "hard changes" using colour font, strike out font or highlights. Or maybe I think it's consensus because that's the way I do it. Here's the original thread. We should bump it back up to the first page because it has some interesting discussions. editing style thread

The EF tends to go through busy and slow periods .. as long as there are threads that are interesting there tends to be more of a regular attendance, but there is usually somebody hanging around ready to talk shop.

 

[M-Y-Erotica]

First, I want to say that SweetErika just helped editing character and structure on the giant story I submitted last night (yeah, finally did, Erika!) and she's terrific. Since I've been working on it since March, I'm excited. Thanks, Erika!

Now to her questions.

My main governing principle is that I don't want to spend any more effort than the author. In fact, I want to know the author worries about my comments twice as long as I worry about making them. In other words, if I start getting vibes that they don't care then I quickly stop caring myself. In this particular case, I would write back to the author, still nicely, and ask if they ran spell-check, because your copy of Word is highlighting in Red tons of mispelled words. Ask them to try going through spell-check again because it will free you up to concentrate on the words that their computer will miss. They may then reply with info like, "I did everything in Notepad" or "nothing is turning red for me." Then you can troubleshoot.

How to find out when they don't care? Hard to know isn't it? In theory you could send back the first few pages of the story and get their response. I haven't done that yet, but a couple of times I should have, as I spent hours on a story and sent it back only to discover they really only wanted a proofread. Me worrying about these issues can be found at this thread:
https://forum.literotica.com/showthread.php?t=431143

While that thread got highjacked, I found many of the responses to my question very useful.

Personally, I used to do all my editing with Track Changes. If it was a suggested change, I just did it straight in the text. If it was a comment that they needed to deal with I still used track changes, but I put it in ALL CAPS. I switched recently to Insert Comment for, of all things, comments, but at least one author didn't like this as much, because she had the version of Word where comments are balloons and she found them hard to track. Now, I am so far behind in life that I haven't taken on a new author in 3 months.

 

[SweetErika]

Aww...You guys are awesome! Thank you so much for sharing your experiences and opinions!

Editing means different things to different people, ... they may have spell check disabled (not sure if you can) or it could be a different language dictionary on their system ... I get caught at work like that, the IT guys set me up with with French as default ... so all the English words look mispelled.

That's a good point, Rogue. I've bounced back and forth with Spanish, and it's not easy. I'm guessing some authors don't use a word processing program, which could account for the overlooked errors, too.

Just as the author has to set the expecations of what they want from the edit (proofing, content, commentary, etc), I think that the editor has to set the expecations of what is expected from the author. Many authors have never dealt with editing and dont' really understand what is involved or how time consuming it can be, and most, if you tell them up front, will be willing to meet you halfway.

Being a relative newbie, I'm still learning about setting expectations and how to communicate certain things to authors. I screwed up on both fronts my first time out, but thankfully that was a very understanding author who's just getting started as well! I think one of my challenges is that I sympathize with the vulnerable position authors are in when submitting to editing, and am afraid of accidently poking tender spots by asserting or setting expectations, even though I always try to be extremely careful about how I say things.

It really depends on how long the doc is, how much time you have and how many changes need to be made. You might want to edit the first page or two, point out the errors and send it back to the author for a "preview" with a nice note explaining that alot of these errors can be rectified with spell check and that once they have had a chance to review your editing style and used the spell check, that they could send it back.

I think this is a wonderful idea, for all new relationships even! It can be really difficult and time consuming to explain what I'm doing, so a preview would solve that, as well as many other problems.

For how people edit .. we had a thread a few months ago where the general consensus was that nobody really liked track changes and we all tend to mark up the document with "hard changes" using colour font, strike out font or highlights. Or maybe I think it's consensus because that's the way I do it. Here's the original thread. We should bump it back up to the first page because it has some interesting discussions. editing style thread

Great, I'll definitely take a look at that thread when I finish my current edit.

I wonder if maybe some of these helpful editor threads could be added to, or compiled in, a sticky for newbies, those who want to exchange ideas?

First, I want to say that SweetErika just helped editing character and structure on the giant story I submitted last night (yeah, finally did, Erika!) and she's terrific. Since I've been working on it since March, I'm excited. Thanks, Erika!

It was my pleasure, and I'm absolutely thrilled for you! Dare I use the ? It's an incredible piece, M, and I'm now a devoted fan. I referred one of my authors who's devoted to improving to your stories, and he was duly impressed and motivated by the quality of everything. They're also a great example of the outcome of a solid editing/feedback process and hard work -- something for everyone to aspire to.

My main governing principle is that I don't want to spend any more effort than the author. In fact, I want to know the author worries about my comments twice as long as I worry about making them. In other words, if I start getting vibes that they don't care then I quickly stop caring myself.

I feel the same way for the most part. Once in awhile I've gotten the impression the author's thinking there's no more hard work to be done (in editing OR revising) after they send it to me and/or it doesn't make a bit of difference how many problems there are as long as it gets approved. Luckily, like Rogue said, most get a wake up call and change their tune, but that attitude gets me going and fails to motivate me to put in extra effort when it's in place!

In this particular case, I would write back to the author, still nicely, and ask if they ran spell-check, because your copy of Word is highlighting in Red tons of mispelled words. Ask them to try going through spell-check again because it will free you up to concentrate on the words that their computer will miss. They may then reply with info like, "I did everything in Notepad" or "nothing is turning red for me." Then you can troubleshoot.

That's good advice I'll keep in mind. Thank you.

How to find out when they don't care? Hard to know isn't it? In theory you could send back the first few pages of the story and get their response. I haven't done that yet, but a couple of times I should have, as I spent hours on a story and sent it back only to discover they really only wanted a proofread. Me worrying about these issues can be found at this thread:
https://forum.literotica.com/...ad.php?t=431143

That sounds like it'd be really helpful for me. I'm looking forward to settling in and having a look at this stuff!


Thanks again, both of you! I'm tired and realize I haven't been very eloquent here, but you guys have given me a ton of super information and helped get my brain going on so many editing issues. The minds of the EF are the best resource!

 

[Weird Harold]

So, after finding 20+ errors on the first page alone, I'm really wondering what the author means by, "I already edited this." ...

With the above in mind, here are some rough questions, though please feel free to add other thoughts:

- What would you do in this situation? Would you just go ahead and edit it? If so, would you comment on/highlight every error (I use the Word Insert Comment feature, finding the results of Track Changes too difficult for some authors to decipher, but would love to hear how others deal with a gazillion, often repetitive, errors)?

One of the first steps should always be insuring that the client has a compatible version of Word and establish what method of documenting the edits and comments works best.

When I was actively editing, I encountered several projects like you describe. When the errors were consistent and widespread, I would correct enough of the story to demonstrate what the consistent errors were, how to find them, and how to correct them. Past that point, I would ignore those problems and concentrate on finding and correcting or commenting on the problems that weren't widespread and consistent.

My philosophy was that anything the author can correct on his own with the tools that Word provides should never make it to the editor for correction. Educating the authors on how to better self-edit their work was always as important to me as fixing the specific project at hand.

 

[Weird Harold]

It really depends on how long the doc is, how much time you have and how many changes need to be made. You might want to edit the first page or two, point out the errors and send it back to the author for a "preview" with a nice note explaining that alot of these errors can be rectified with spell check and that once they have had a chance to review your editing style and used the spell check, that they could send it back.

One point about MS Word's spellcheck that needs to be considered -- and pointed out to clients: Before sending a work to an editor, the spelling and grammar check should be reset for a final spell-check. If that's not done, every error they chose to ignore at first to maintain the creative flow continues to be ignored on subsequent spell checks!

Opening the document in a different version or copy of Word automatically resets the spell-check, so the editor sees all of the errors but the author's copy of Word will pass it with no errors because of the "ignore" function.

 

[M-Y-Erotica]

It was my pleasure, and I'm absolutely thrilled for you! Dare I use the ? It's an incredible piece, M, and I'm now a devoted fan. I referred one of my authors who's devoted to improving to your stories, and he was duly impressed and motivated by the quality of everything. They're also a great example of the outcome of a solid editing/feedback process and hard work -- something for everyone to aspire to.

Well, Erika and all, this story that you helped me with is now up and about in the world. Here's the link:
North Shore

 

[Selena_Kitt]

One point about MS Word's spellcheck that needs to be considered -- and pointed out to clients: Before sending a work to an editor, the spelling and grammar check should be reset for a final spell-check. If that's not done, every error they chose to ignore at first to maintain the creative flow continues to be ignored on subsequent spell checks!

Opening the document in a different version or copy of Word automatically resets the spell-check, so the editor sees all of the errors but the author's copy of Word will pass it with no errors because of the "ignore" function.

Can you reset it without saving it under a different version?

 

[CopyCarver]

I've been in the following type of situation more than once, and would really appreciate any input from other editors (author perspectives are also welcome, of course):

A request for my opinion on the overall story and whether or not it'll meet Lit standards arrives. The author claims to have already edited the piece. The subject matter and amount of work to be done are suitable, so I agree to take it on.

When I get the story in Word, there are a bunch of spelling errors clearly underlined in red. Quite a few sentences are structured like this one with no punctuation and what's clearly a run-on sentence and oh god I think my head's going to explode. [That's an example, folks. ] Commas are few and far between, and semicolons are nonexistent, in spite of the fact that Word is pointing out some of the places they should be used. There are plenty of syntax and word-choice errors, too.

So, after finding 20+ errors on the first page alone, I'm really wondering what the author means by, "I already edited this." I completely understand that some people just have trouble with English and writing. That's fine, and I'm very happy to help them fix the stories up and learn where they're going awry. I'm not picking on the non-native speakers either, because I know how hard it is to learn and write proficiently in English. However, is it that tough to use a spellchecker, or fix the mistakes Word points out? I'm also wondering how I'll deal with this piece and the author.

With the above in mind, here are some rough questions, though please feel free to add other thoughts:

- What would you do in this situation? Would you just go ahead and edit it? If so, would you comment on/highlight every error (I use the Word Insert Comment feature, finding the results of Track Changes too difficult for some authors to decipher, but would love to hear how others deal with a gazillion, often repetitive, errors)?

Or, would you send the story back to the author with a list of the most common errors, examples and resources, along with a request for them to do their best to fix them before sending it back to you?

Would you ask the author to review what they already edited?

- As an editor, what are your standards for the pieces you're willing to work on? Do you insist authors show some effort to fix what they can on their own? If so, how do you differentiate between someone who hasn't made an effort and one who has? Spelling errors caught by Word are generally a clue for me, but perhaps there are other things I'm unaware of?

- Assuming there are no glaring clues, how do you distinguish the authors who really need help and want to improve from those who just want someone to do the work for them?



I've read all of the tips for editors here I've been able to find, including LadyC's great essays. I have also had great editing experiences and established good, lasting relationships with my authors, including those with pieces that had tons of errors. Well, except for that one author who never acknowledged they had received my edited copy (though I understand that happens every now and then). I'm definitely still learning the ropes, however, and this seems like a perfect opportunity to benefit from others' experiences and advice!

Thank you for reading this, and I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts!

Perhaps the biggest problem with "error detection" is determining whether they are indeed errors or whether they're simply variant style/usage that is preferred by the author. As an example, I personally despise run-on sentences, separated only by commas, but many writers seem to love them. I point them out, to be sure, but I've long since realized that I'll have to live with most of them since the writer really, really, really wants them that way.

Like you, I think "Track Changes" was created by Hitler's ghost as his parting shot against humanity. Insert Comment is vastly superior--not perfect, and not the equal of marking up hard copy--but probably the best available choice for e-mail editing. Whenever possible, I include a brief explanation of why something needs to be changed. I also make it clear up front that the author--not I--must make the final choice whether to accept or reject the suggested changes. That's the only way I know to avoid hijacking someone else's story.

No clue whether I'm an overachiever or a masochist, but I highlight/comment every glitch--even when the same ones are repeated again and again. Usually, however, I do that only on one or two manuscripts, believing that most writers do indeed want to improve. If an author is obviously trying, but just isn't getting the point, I'll keep correcting the same errors as long as it takes; if they express an informed preference for the "wrong" way, I regard that as stylistic preference and just ignore future repititions of the same error. It hasn't happened yet, but if anyone intentionally gave me a godawful mess simple because he/she was too lazy to fix it, I'd clean up that one manuscript and then strongly suggest they send future stories elsewhere.

I have no clue whether my way is better or worse than any other approach, but it works for most of "my" writers.

 

[Weird Harold]

Before sending a work to an editor, the spelling and grammar check should be reset for a final spell-check. If that's not done, every error they chose to ignore at first to maintain the creative flow continues to be ignored on subsequent spell checks!

Can you reset it without saving it under a different version?

Yes.

I use MS Word 97 and the reset function is part of the "check document" function rather than the "spell-check" function -- see attachment. Newer versions may hide the reset function elsewhere.

If you use the "ABC" icon or Tools/Spelling and Grammar check (F7), to initiate spelling and grammar check, it keeps the ignored items ignored.

If you go to the Tools/Options --> Spelling and Grammar Tab, there is a "Check Document" button to completely recheck the document that resets everything as if the spelling and grammar checks had never been run previously.