Edit pass and then Grammarly, or Grammarly and then edit pass?

[8letters]

I have the free version of Grammarly installed on my computer. It doesn't work with Scrivener, which is what I use to write my stories. Instead, I have to hop through some hoops to get my story into a Wordpad document before Grammarly will provide feedback on it.

I've got a story where I've finished my rough draft. So I have the choice - do I read through my story slowly and catch all the errors I can, and then hop through the hoops to have Grammarly provide feedback on it, or do I hop through the hoops to get Grammarly's feedback, and then slowly read through my story to catch the errors that Grammarly missed?

If I use Grammarly first, it's going to quickly catch a lot of errors. When I do my slow read, I'm correcting fewer errors. But then I have writing that hasn't been reviewed by Grammarly. If I do my slow read first, then the version of my story I wind up with has been fully reviewed by Grammarly.

It's not clear to me which way is best. What are people's thoughts?

 

[StillStunned]

My thought is this: never do a slow read. Use a Read Aloud function. Sit and listen to the computer read your text to you. Watch the little grey highlight jump from word to word. It seems like a drag (but in Word you can adjust the speed, so that helps), but it's absolutely the best way to catch typos and inconsistencies. The computer reads what you've written, not what you think you've written.

It has the added benefit of showing you if you've used similar words or phrases too often or too closely together.

(I'm a professional editor - and proofreader - and trust me, this is the final step every language professional I know uses nowadays.)

 

[Euphony]

I have the free version of Grammarly installed on my computer. It doesn't work with Scrivener, which is what I use to write my stories. Instead, I have to hop through some hoops to get my story into a Wordpad document before Grammarly will provide feedback on it.

I've got a story where I've finished my rough draft. So I have the choice - do I read through my story slowly and catch all the errors I can, and then hop through the hoops to have Grammarly provide feedback on it, or do I hop through the hoops to get Grammarly's feedback, and then slowly read through my story to catch the errors that Grammarly missed?

If I use Grammarly first, it's going to quickly catch a lot of errors. When I do my slow read, I'm correcting fewer errors. But then I have writing that hasn't been reviewed by Grammarly. If I do my slow read first, then the version of my story I wind up with has been fully reviewed by Grammarly.

It's not clear to me which way is best. What are people's thoughts?

I use both those tools (Hemingway too.)

Workflow:

Gram
Expected "culling" edit (turning free form ramblings into something with at least the appearance of story)
Hemingway (if needed)
Serious, methodical edit.
Maybe another Gram pass but I am way more suspect of its suggestions on this run than the first.

Let age in fine oak casks for a number of weeks/months (depending on size, how burnt out I am by the project)

One more focused but not militant review.

Quiet the "perfection" voices in my head and (hopefully) let the project be what it will ultimately be.

 

[OverconfidentSarcasm]

There seems to be an increase in AI detection. So, until Lit fixes their weird procedure, I'd strongly suggest making use of Grammarly (or any similar spell- and grammar-checking AIs) first, and then having another person read it to make sure it doesn't sound too formal (which seems to be the main problem with AI help).

 

[Euphony]

Use a Read Aloud function.

I found this to be very helpful.

So much so, I did a deep dive on various "voices" to find a few that would keep me engaged through longer stretches. (having different accents/genders is helpful when you find your focus fading)

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I don't use any proofreading tools except when I paste into the submission box I scroll through it all and individually check every red squiggly line that I see. Most of them are purposely misspelled (or just not in the dictionary, like oddball character names) but I'm often surprised at what my fine-toothed comb will miss.

Other than that I read through my stuff countless times, both as I'm writing and after I am finished. I'm constantly reading stuff for flow (sentences sound good with varied structures, multiple uses of a word in a sentence or paragraph, swapping some out for pronouns or synonyms), for typos and punctuation. Once it's all done I will leave it for a day or two and come back and read it all through again for little fixes. If the piece is longer I will repeat this process two or three times (yes that takes a day or more to let it sit each time). This is just for the proofreading.

I also re-read stuff over and over for actual edits. These are making sure that the plot is all there and correct, the characters read well enough for their motives to be understood, the scenes that need to stop and smell the roses get the appropriate imagery and the scenes that need to go bang don't waste time. The pace matters. I'm reading to ensure that everything is as immersive as it can be, that the scenes are believable and that there is enough for the reader to connect to and invest in.

If I'm lucky, a friend will be able to do some beta reading. You don't have to wait until your finished to do this. If the first 5k words are done, have them read that for you and give feedback. A good beta reader is invaluable. It's a fresh set of eyes on your words. As the author, you inherently know everything that makes your characters tick (or at least you should) so it's easy for you to assume things and leave them out. An unbiased fresh read will notice when something is missing or not adding up. ("Why would he kill that guy?" "Because he mistook him for the guy who jumped him outside the pub." "Oh, that would make sense but it wasn't clear." - now you know to clarify the couple of lines that tell the mistaken identity) A beta reader should not be a cheerleading fan of yours. It should be someone objectively critical.

I suppose that I'm running on too long here, this thread is really just about proofreading.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

I use Grammarly free with Word. My advice is to let Grammarly make a pass first and correct grammar errors and such, so in your slow read you can focus more on how the story flows, the structure of the sentences, pacing, and such. If you do a slow pass first, the occasional mistake correcting is going to break the immersion. Well, that is how it works with me anyway.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I use Grammarly free with Word. My advice is to let Grammarly make a pass first and correct grammar errors and such, so in your slow read you can focus more on how the story flows, the structure of the sentences, pacing, and such. If you do a slow pass first, the occasional mistake correcting is going to break the immersion. Well, that is how it works with me anyway.

Use whatever tools that you feel necessary because they are tools, but I would advise not relying on those tools. Always go through it yourself as well. Any sticky spot that your tools find, look into yourself.

Also, do your editing reads and your proofing reads separately. This is difficult for me to do as if I notice a typo during a story edit read I'm gonna stop and change it. That's just me. I need to force myself not to, and separate my proofing from my editing as, as you say, stopping to fix a comma interrupts the flow of the read.

Proofreading literally comes down to patience. Don't rush it. You're done writing and you want to hit submit really really really really badly. Proofreading for a couple of days is temporary. Publishing lasts forever. How many times do we see authors here in this forum complain that they submitted and now they want to edit all the little errors, then the story goes to the back of the submission cue with the edits and they have to wait a week or more, all because they couldn't wait to hit preview before submit. The patience is worth it.

 

[SyleusSnow]

Note that Grammarly (and the "MS Editor" added into the latest MS Word) is geared to business writing. ProWritingAid has modes and tools specifically for fiction (I set mine to General Fiction > Romance). It can read Scrivener files, if that's what you write in, though doesn't integrate into it directly like it does with MS Word and Google Docs.

I only use heavy proofing tools like ProWritingAid to near the end of the writing process, when a story is nearly ready to submit. Like others have said, text to speech is essential for catching errors... I use it after every big revision session. It always finds stuff every grammar and style checker misses, plus helps identify awkward wording and dialog that doesn't flow.

 

[LetsMisBehave]

For me, using Grammarly has helped me avoid making irritating mistakes, but it needs to be used selectively. The suggestion of using the speaking-aloud function is right and one I should use more. I remember when I first started working, the best proofreading results came when one person read aloud from the document and the other person read the words. The speaker spotted the stuff which did not work, and the reader caught the typos.
Its problem can be homogenising the product. Some of the suggestions end up being right for formal documents but wrong for stories, especially when, in speech, one would omit words because, in context, they aren't needed.
It tends to take a couple of weeks at least (and usually a lot more) for a story to come together for me, so using Grammarly or the word function as I go is not a problem.

 

[samhasstories]

I probably miss some typos, but I proofread the old-fashioned way. I tend to disagree with the suggestions MS Word makes, except for some spelling catches. I'm in the camp that grammar rules are bendable, particularly for fiction, in favor of tone and rhythm.

 

[KeithD]

I suggest reviewing first if you are going to use Grammarly and then reviewing again. after running it through Grammarly. I don't use Grammarly.

 

[AwkwardlySet]

Use whatever tools that you feel necessary because they are tools, but I would advise not relying on those tools. Always go through it yourself as well. Any sticky spot that your tools find, look into yourself.

Also, do your editing reads and your proofing reads separately. This is difficult for me to do as if I notice a typo during a story edit read I'm gonna stop and change it. That's just me. I need to force myself not to, and separate my proofing from my editing as, as you say, stopping to fix a comma interrupts the flow of the read.

Proofreading literally comes down to patience. Don't rush it. You're done writing and you want to hit submit really really really really badly. Proofreading for a couple of days is temporary. Publishing lasts forever. How many times do we see authors here in this forum complain that they submitted and now they want to edit all the little errors, then the story goes to the back of the submission cue with the edits and they have to wait a week or more, all because they couldn't wait to hit preview before submit. The patience is worth it.

The tools are an immense help for a non-native speaker such as myself. As you've said, they sometimes want to correct the grammar in a way that alters the meaning of the sentence, so yeah, one has to pay attention to that. I usually do two slow reads when everything is written, to try to feel the flow and pacing and see if something sounds off, too wordy, or crude. Things slip through sometimes, but still, Grammarly is a valuable tool, one that allows me to see the mistakes I often make in certain situations.

 

[8letters]

Thanks for all the input.

Sadly, the version of Word I have is Word 2010, so I don't have any means to have my computer read my story to me.

I'm a big fan of beta-readers. Two have already read this story, and the results of this editing session will go out to some more beta-readers.

I find Grammarly very helpful, but it has lots of false-positives for me. For example, I use "really" a lot as an intensifier, and Grammarly wants me to take it out every time.

I write big stories. What I'm working on currently is 22K words. I find close reading through the whole thing exhausting, so I'm not up to doing multiple readthroughs. I'm only going to do one full readthrough in this editing session, so the question is when is the best time to do it.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Grammarly has a desktop option that will work on all platforms. Any word processor it has a float at the bottom right of the page. In your browsers, anything that has where you input the words.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I don't need grammar tools because my grammar and spelling is quite strong. Not everyone has strong grammar skills. If you are in that camp grammar tools can be your friend. Whatever works for you. But I would caution on relying on them. Just accepting everything that the tools suggest won't always work. The tools don't/can't know just what you're trying to get across. Often there are more than just one way to word or punctuate a sentence or passage. Only you can know which way is best. And as mentioned somewhere above, grammar can be bent (often mangled) very effectively in fiction. In such cases your grammar tools basically become useless.

For instance, I am an absolute stickler for complete sentences in my narrative (quoted dialogue is different). Except for rare instances where my narrative voice is first person and I go for the authenticity of the character's true words which are spoken naturally. Everyday real world speech has no regard for such structures. For instance, if you have ever read Bukowski, he writes all first person as if he's talking to you. It flows very well and is completely natural, yet every third sentence is a fragment. In that type of story grammar tools won't help you. When I read, fragments stick out to me. It's just my nature. If there is not both a subject and a predicate between the capital and the period my brain will trip (a little bit). So when I edit and proof, every sentence is checked over for subject and predicate and very very few fragments if at all slip through my net. Similarly with run-ons.

Now please don't take this as being snooty, or looking down my haughty grammar nose at anyone, for I do not intend to at all. For a hobby writer it's really not too big of a deal to have imperfect grammar so long as your words reads easily enough and aren't a chore on the eyes. But for anyone aspiring to anything higher, I would strongly suggest that if you find yourself leaning on the tools for proofing, that you get good at grammar. Get a book or two and educate yourself, or take a small night course. Learn your subjects and predicates, get your tenses right, the difference between adjectives and adverbs, it's and its, then and than, there their and they're, use of commas, etc. If you aspire to be a good writer, get good at the mechanics of it too. You won't regret it.

It's easy for me to say as grammar has always come easy for me. I was ace speller in my class when I was 5 6 8 10 12 years old (was villified and hated for it). I understand that it's difficult for many. The most creative kid in our class was a Korean boy who could paint and draw amazingly. He could make things realistic or he could draw kooky comics that had us in stitches. He could do poetry and write wild stories too. He couldn't spell worth jack. His penmanship was atrocious. He knew this and he did not care! He was so confident in his creative abilities and he was absolutely brilliant at anything artistic. So if you struggle with grammar and spelling, there's nothing wrong with you. All that I am suggesting is that whatever your weak point is, you should strive to improve it, and is grammar is that weak point, so be it.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I write big stories. What I'm working on currently is 22K words. I find close reading through the whole thing exhausting, so I'm not up to doing multiple readthroughs. I'm only going to do one full readthrough in this editing session, so the question is when is the best time to do it.

Hate to say it but ... do more than one read through.

First, I would separate the reasons for reading through. There is editing and proofing. If you are reading for proofing, then I can see one very slow and careful read through at the very very very end.

For editing, you read through and presumably you edit. You change some dialogue. You fatten a description or two. You might even add a small scene. When you do this, you now need to read through again, to make sure that the edits read well. You have to edit the edits, so to speak. I'm speaking from experience. Almost all of the sticky little bits that I wince at seeing them months or years later are the final edits that I threw in at the last minute and didn't re-read or proof properly. The idea was very good, but I missed a comma or I used an adjective where I should have had an adverb - all because I rushed it and didn't bother to edit the edits.

 

[theWollstonecraftWoman]

Perfect grammar isn't required, especially in dialog. You can leave out a was, were, are, or is if there is a second verb to hang the sentence on, even when the checkers tell you to use them.

 

[alohadave]

Sadly, the version of Word I have is Word 2010, so I don't have any means to have my computer read my story to me.

Your OS should have an accessibility/screen reader feature that can do the job.

Otherwise, there are sites where you can paste the text in to have it read.

 

[djrip]

I've yet to agree with a suggested grammar change from Word. They usually irritate me; no, I wanted it like that, thank you very much, computer.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I don't need grammar tools because my grammar and spelling is quite strong. Not everyone has strong grammar skills. If you are in that camp grammar tools can be your friend. Whatever works for you. But I would caution on relying on them. Just accepting everything that the tools suggest won't always work. The tools don't/can't know just what you're trying to get across. Often there are more than just one way to word or punctuate a sentence or passage. Only you can know which way is best. And as mentioned somewhere above, grammar can be bent (often mangled) very effectively in fiction. In such cases your grammar tools basically become useless.

You sound like me. I tried Grammarly a few times and gave it up. It might be okay for business writing (but I'm already good at that), but I found it tedious and crap for fiction.

I've developed a rolling edit process over the years. Before I start writing a new section, I read over the last, checking for typos, repetition, paying most of my attention to the beat and rhythm of the prose (what I call the "cadence and cascade"). That also keeps continuity on the plot and scene.

I'm a stream of consciousness pantser. I don't do plot outlines, character studies, none of that. I start writing, tell a linear story, and stop. By the time I've done the rolling edit a hundred times, I've caught nearly all the glitches, and anything I've missed, my "editor" catches. Word spell check is the only software tool I use, it's enough to catch the typos. All the rest is down to me.

 

[pink_silk_glove]

I'm a stream of consciousness pantser. I don't do plot outlines, character studies, none of that. I start writing, tell a linear story, and stop. By the time I've done the rolling edit a hundred times, I've caught nearly all the glitches, and anything I've missed, my "editor" catches. Word spell check is the only software tool I use, it's enough to catch the typos. All the rest is down to me.

Hah, I'm a total plotter. Sometimes I start with a complete skeleton point form outline, but usually I start by writing a couple of scenes and then as I decide to link the scenes and figure out the plot I start outlining. By about halfway or so, I probably have the complete outline and I just go back and start fleshing the scenes, and I never write chronologically from beginning to end. I jump all over the place. It sounds messy but really it's not. I hate the messy pallet. That's why the notes are all there to keep it all in order. That way I can jump around from end to beginning to middle etc, and keep from getting stuck in one place. I avoid writer's block by moving somewhere/anywhere else that is more inspiring and coming back another time when the block is solved.

Odd that we have wildly different approaches to our ideas yet strikingly similar editing and proofing processes.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Hah, I'm a total plotter. Sometimes I start with a complete skeleton point form outline, but usually I start by writing a couple of scenes and then as I decide to link the scenes and figure out the plot I start outlining. By about halfway or so, I probably have the complete outline and I just go back and start fleshing the scenes, and I never write chronologically from beginning to end. I jump all over the place. It sounds messy but really it's not. I hate the messy pallet. That's why the notes are all there to keep it all in order. That way I can jump around from end to beginning to middle etc, and keep from getting stuck in one place. I avoid writer's block by moving somewhere/anywhere else that is more inspiring and coming back another time when the block is solved.

Odd that we have wildly different approaches to our ideas yet strikingly similar editing and proofing processes.

Now that is fascinating, yes.

I had a stalled story once, where I tried to skeleton outline to a conclusion. That was no solution at all. I looked at the outline a few times, but ended up writing none of it - the story resolved itself. I think one of the characters must have said, "Fuck this, I can't wait for you," and just got on with the next scene.

 

[8letters]

I type the first sentence of the story and keep typing until the story is done. I have the story mostly outlined in my head before I start typing, but that outline can change as I type. I might do a timeline at some point in the writing process, but that's the only writing aid I do. My writing has tons of mistakes, and editing mainly consists of finding those mistakes and correcting them. Grammarly does a good job of pointing out my mistakes to me. At this point, I don't add scenes or major blocks of text. It's all about getting the story "clean" enough to send out to beta-readers. The big threat to making progress on the story is a lack of enthusiasm. I enjoy writing. Editing is no fun, but a very necessary evil.

 

[SyleusSnow]

Your OS should have an accessibility/screen reader feature that can do the job.

Otherwise, there are sites where you can paste the text in to have it read.

Balabolka for text to speech is free, doesn't send your work to "the cloud" and directly reads MS Word and many other formats.

In many ways, the crappy default voices it provides makes it easier to notice errors and poor wording than the slicker natural voices in Word and other newer software.