Ebonics to keep kids interested...

[Halo_n_horns]

http://www.sbsun.com/Stories/0,1413,208~12588~2969790,00.html

Discuss.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Let me get this straight, you want to get up the percentage of black students going to college by not teaching them how to speak english? Yeah.

This harken's back to the days of separate but equal where math and science in black schools was watered down because the prevailing thought was they were too unintelligent to learn.

Unless San Bernadeno also has a college where they are going to have classes in Ebonics rather than english? If so, what is a degree from there going to be worth to someone?

 

[R. Richard]

Unless San Bernadeno also has a college where they are going to have classes in Ebonics rather than english? If so, what is a degree from there going to be worth to someone?

Colly:
As usual, you have identified the problem! Students who use Ebonics are viewed by employers as uneducated n***es. Such people do not get hired or get hired for only the most menial, lowest paid jobs.

If you want to make a racial statement, by all means use Ebonics. If you want to make a living, learn standard English.

[Doan you people be tellin' me I be dissin' n***ers. I be roaming the streets at night where I run into any number of people of color. I kin talk to 'em in Ebonics or American. However, when you be tellin' 'em the Man want his money now, it doan matter much which way you says it. JMNTHO]

 

[sharingfantasies]

When Oakland first came up with the idea of Ebonics as a second language, it was to get money for the district. California puts a lot of money into programs to assist students that speak languages other than English. African-American students were not getting the same support and programs that Hispanics and others were getting. By declaring Ebonics a second language, the district could access that state funding.

While Ebonics has its roots in African language and English had been laid on top of the original language, it is still English enough that the state didn't go for the idea. Instead there has been a process of training teachers to recognize the formation of Ebonics, recognize that it is a home language, and to help teachers teach African-American students to recognize the differences between the Ebonics and standard American.

Teachers are expected to teach standard grammar and syntax to all students. Those students whose parents stress learning standard grammar learn it faster than those students whose parents do not.

Most students learn that Ebonics is best for home and with friends, while standard English will help you become a more successful writer. Businesses will hire a standard English speaker before they hire someone that uses other languages. So learning standard English can be beneficial.

The other concern of schools is that No Child Left Behind federal program, which requires all students of all languages and abilities to take certain tests. Some states allow the students to take tests in their home language if that test exists. California requires all students in general and most special education students to take grade level exams in English.

Then they rank the schools for meeting certain criteria based on those test scores. Schools that do not meet the state or federal requirements are eligible for sanctions and considered poor schools. In many schools, one of the subgroups that often does not meet the criteria is the African-American group. This can be for a lot of reasons, but schools are trying to come up with ways to bring that subgroup's test scores up higher, so that the school's will not be on the At-Risk list from the state or federal government.

With Governor Schwartzenegger's new plan to attach merit pay to test scores, those schools that have lower test scores for various reasons, are feeling as if they are under attack. Teachers that work with students that have difficulty with reading and math, no longer want to work with those students as it will be reflective of them on a professional level. Even if the students' test scores rise dramatically. if they don't reach the required level, than there are sanctions.

This idea of San Bernardino's is a way to try to raise test scores and avoid sanctions.

just a little background in educational politics in Ca.

 

[Joe Wordsworth]

I shouldn't wonder if Ebonics is much different, policy-wise, than Spanish (given that a number of people are suing over the wrongness of high schools not offering Spanish-speaking coursework for those who don't know English)?

 

[Slowlane]

How about Cajun? Or hillbilly.

We are supposed to consider this a “foreign language” and teach it accordingly – and drop all racial differences – and support affirmative action - and treat everybody the same – and…

 

[Liar]

Colly:
As usual, you have identified the problem! Students who use Ebonics are viewed by employers as uneducated n***es.

Not even that. I guess the same will happen that happens here. We have lots of top educated immigrants. I'm talking doctors, engineers that kind of stuff. But they work shit jobs. They are from places like Iran, Turkey, Eritrea and Syria and language-wise incompatible. The companes know that these applicants are clever as hell, but they can't communicate in Swedish, the language spoken at that company. Most work places doesn't even make room for English speaking workers. Being transparently bilingual is too expensive.

So I don't see that Ebonics, (whatever it is, a whole separate language?) should be wrong for education, but the people who choose to study that way and doesn't learn to communicate their knowledge in English, should be aware of that they are educating themselves for a substantially smaller job market. Same with Spanish, I guess, although there should be a bigger market for that, considering the hispanic dominance in some regions.

 

[TheLittleWolf]

How many languages does the average European speak? Their native tongue, of course, then English, French, Spanish and Russian. Plus so many are now learning Chinese. It seems to me that tobe a sucessful world entrapenuer one need to learn a second and or third language. At one point in history as a scientist you had to know german just to speak with your contemporaries. Today the standard is English. It is the dominant language of all sciences. Mostly because us americans, for the most part, are to stubborn or arogant to learn a second language.

Although you can disqualify all that I said because English is my first language, it was never encourageed to speak polish around the house by my grandparents therefore I never picked that up. My three years of HS spanish have escaped me. I cant remember anything more than cervesa fria.(this does come in handy from time to time) My college french class I failed because I was speaking french with a spanish accent.

In Europe mist countries are no bigge than one of our states. If every state spoke a different language then I'm sure that all americans would be multi lingual.
As for Eubonics, I think it is rubbish, it should be classified as slang, not a seperate language.

 

[Halo_n_horns]

It's too hard for me to swallow the idea of this. How many colleges are going to interview these kids in Ebonics? How many prospective employers are going to interview these kids for jobs by speaking Ebonics to them? Is the driver's license test going to be issued in ebonics? For that matter, are the driver's licenses going to be issued in Ebonics so these kids can tell that card from the rest of the cards in their wallets? Are they going to be told how much their groceries are at the checkout in Ebonics? How about the meals they order at whatever restaurants they can afford; are they going to order the food in Ebonics and expect the person on the other side of the counter to understand them? etc., etc., etc. ...

The whole thing looks like a backfire waiting to happen. They're trying to interest the black kids in coming to school by offering to speak to them in a way that created through a lot of illiteracy and/or laziness to begin with, and they're somehow going to become more productive and college-bound students??? Yeah. That makes sense.

In a world where kids don't even know what came before the CD or the cell phone, this screams as a bad idea!!!

 

[KharisLeaf82]

Good. Less competition for me. That sounds mean (and I'm not serious to a point) but that's what the kids that were teased for "talking white" (like myself) are thinking. If they want to learn ebonics, fine. It just means that I'll get a chance to ...well, get ahead.

*Kharis*

 

[Halo_n_horns]

Good. Less competition for me. That sounds mean (and I'm not serious to a point) but that's what the kids that were teased for "talking white" (like myself) are thinking. If they want to learn ebonics, fine. It just means that I'll get a chance to ...well, get ahead.

*Kharis*

Is it odd that I've never thought about languages as a racial subject until this came up? I've always thought of Spanish and Mexican/Spanish as just two variations of the same language to learn. I took German in highschool because I thought it was a fun language. I've taken a bit of interest in Portuguese, which is beautiful to listen to, Japanese, Italian, French and a short list of some others that, just for shits and giggles, I picked up some tidbits here and there because I thought they sounded pleasant and were fun to speak.

Now there's this Ebonics thing, and after listening to some of it I can honestly and without any racial slur intended, say that the blacks who are participating in this are taking themselves to the black-stereotypical-outer-limits.

I'm sorry that anyone would refer to someone else as "talking white," or any other color for that matter, but I think this is going to fan flames that the black culture should not be trying to fan.

 

[popcorn2721]

just my two cents (long)

The problem in itself is straying from the thought of one standard form of comunication. Dumbing down the proper english taught in schools is more a step backward than anything. I also believe that by creating another means in which to seperate the have and havenots is not needed. Its hard enough for most folks to make a living let alone have them damned to the stereotype of being ignorant and undereducation based on the type of dialect spoken. Ebonics is a dialect, not another language. Just as it is spoken in places where you wouldnt otherwise hear what we would call proper articulation, Those who articulate and follow proper grammer would like wise be out of place in a place where the dialect is different. Lets say the thick cajun dialect or the heavy latin american dialect which both have traces of their native tongue rooted in them were in themselves different languages. Most folks would not by into that, and they shouldnt. To me the thought of declaring ebonics a second language sounds like a joke a couple of middle age white polititians started and the punch line is that all the ZOMBIES out there in TV land buy it, hook line and sinker.

 

[Liar]

It's too hard for me to swallow the idea of this. How many colleges are going to interview these kids in Ebonics? How many prospective employers are going to interview these kids for jobs by speaking Ebonics to them? Is the driver's license test going to be issued in ebonics? For that matter, are the driver's licenses going to be issued in Ebonics so these kids can tell that card from the rest of the cards in their wallets? Are they going to be told how much their groceries are at the checkout in Ebonics? How about the meals they order at whatever restaurants they can afford; are they going to order the food in Ebonics and expect the person on the other side of the counter to understand them? etc., etc., etc. ...

The whole thing looks like a backfire waiting to happen. They're trying to interest the black kids in coming to school by offering to speak to them in a way that created through a lot of illiteracy and/or laziness to begin with, and they're somehow going to become more productive and college-bound students??? Yeah. That makes sense.

In a world where kids don't even know what came before the CD or the cell phone, this screams as a bad idea!!!

Of course it's a bad idea. For official matters, you still need one language that unites you, however you twist and turn it.

It's simple. if Ebonics wants to be a language of it's own, then it should be treated like that. Like a minority language. The same way that some US citizens have Korean, Spanish, Jiddish, Noreigan or whatever as their native tongue. Within their community, it works. Outside if it, it doesn't. Where and when it's practical enough (when a big enough percentage of the population speaks it) to grant a second of third language parallell status with English, then go ahead. But short of Spanish in some states, that is light years away.

But it is still up to every single private of corporate institution to choose what language they run their shop in. So tough luck on making it work.

To give this language (or dialect) that status because some kids don't feel like going to college? That's attacking the problem from the wrong direction. They need to learn that this is their country too, and that they can grab the good chunks of it. Language is as tangible an isolation barrier as anything else. If they choose to isolate themselves, they should know what they do.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Of course it's a bad idea. For official matters, you still need one language that unites you, however you twist and turn it.

It's simple. if Ebonics wants to be a language of it's own, then it should be treated like that. Like a minority language. The same way that some US citizens have Korean, Spanish, Jiddish, Noreigan or whatever as their native tongue. Within their community, it works. Outside if it, it doesn't. Where and when it's practical enough (when a big enough percentage of the population speaks it) to grant a second of third language parallell status with English, then go ahead. But short of Spanish in some states, that is light years away.

But it is still up to every single private of corporate institution to choose what language they run their shop in. So tough luck on making it work.

To give this language (or dialect) that status because some kids don't feel like going to college? That's attacking the problem from the wrong direction. They need to learn that this is their country too, and that they can grab the good chunks of it. Language is as tangible an isolation barrier as anything else. If they choose to isolate themselves, they should know what they do.

I've worked in four states. At some point, in each of those jobs, I've had something to do with the hiring process. So here it goes, if you want a job, you had better be able to speak and read and write english. It's that simple. From dock workers in warehouses to the kids hired to clean toilets and pick up garbage at the state park.

Skipping over everything else, another thread noted how litigation happy this country has become. No employer is going to hire someone who can credibly claim they couldn't read and understand warning signs, warning lables, MSDS's and Memos from management. No one. I don't care what your degree is in, unless you are not a native and have a highly valued technical skill, no company is going to bend over backwards to provide you wil special help in understanding simple instructions.

I'm surpriased the teachers haven't rebelled. I can guarinty you that any of my teachers when I was coming up, black, white or other, would have gone on a tear if you suggested they purposefully learn to speak incorrect english. And then teach it?

Pfffft.

This is racism of the worst sort. The central idea being they are too stupid to be educated in english so we will have to dumb the language down to their level as they are too stupid to learn in standard english and rather than educate them, we should find a way to coddle them along to a HS diploma so they can get a McJob.

 

[KharisLeaf82]

This is racism of the worst sort. The central idea being they are too stupid to be educated in english so we will have to dumb the language down to their level as they are too stupid to learn in standard english and rather than educate them, we should find a way to coddle them along to a HS diploma so they can get a McJob.

Exactly. Lord, I hate to use this phrase, but this DOES feel like the soft bigotry of lowered expectations. My parents came from Jamaica with marginal post secondary education...and well, they insisted my brothers and I speak Queens English. If they can do it . . .FOR THE LOVE OF ALL THINGS BRIGHT AND BEAUTIFUL.... meh. Like I said, less competition for me.

<must...supress...rage...induced...headache...>

*Kharis*

 

[gauchecritic]

The question I'd ask first is; what do these kids watch/read for entertainment?

I doubt that they go to the movies and watch Star Wars without understanding a word that is said. Or 'The Late Show' or 'In Living Colour'.

But then I suppose they'd have to be middle class to do any of those things anyway. I must be crazy to think that they 'read' anything other than comic books.

Forget I said anything.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

The question I'd ask first is; what do these kids watch/read for entertainment?

I doubt that they go to the movies and watch Star Wars without understanding a word that is said. Or 'The Late Show' or 'In Living Colour'.

But then I suppose they'd have to be middle class to do any of those things anyway. I must be crazy to think that they 'read' anything other than comic books.

Forget I said anything.

I grew up in a working class neighborhood and I got to go see starwars. We had a TV, even a VCR. And I read quite a bit.

I went to school with kids from poor neighborhoods and I mean really poor. They used their library cards a little less often than I did, but they went to see starwars too and they all had TV's, most with cable well before we got it.

I don't really understand what you were getting at?

 

[raphy]

I'm not going to comment on this, because as anyone who knows me and knows how much of an arrogant intellectually elitist Queen's English grammar nazi and snob I am will also be able to predict and how severely pissed off this makes me.

I hope they all get turned down for the first 2 dozen jobs they apply for because they can't speak English.

If I lived in France, I'd except to be unhireable because I don't speak French. The same for Germany, or India, or Brasil, or any other number of countries whose native language is different from my own. My French is poor, my Italian worse. My German is non-existent. I don't live in those countries.

This is the US, where the accepted language of trade is American English. Learn to speak it (or a close variant thereof - British English, Australian or Canadian, for example) or get the fuck out of the country and go somewhere where the accepted language *is* that which you speak.

Then you can tell all of us English speakers to learn *your* language if we want to live and work in that country.

Oh wait, you can't do that, can you? Because Ebonics doesn't have a home country? Because it's not a fucking real language is it? It's lazy slang pieced together by too-cool-for-school retards who all want to grow up to be gangsta rappers and who can swagger around, pretending to have a firearm strapped under their arm, but couldn't enunciate the phrase 'underarm holster' if their life depended upon it.

Bah.

I said I wasn't going to comment.

I'm going to crawl into a corner now.

p.s. Edited to add: I make no statement of color in my post. I know people of all colors to whom my statement applies. Blacks may be primary users of 'Ebonics', but they are not its sole users, and they certainly do not have a monopoly on the personality type I described in my final paragraph.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

I'm not going to comment on this, because as anyone who knows me and knows how much of an arrogant intellectually elitist Queen's English grammar nazi and snob I am will also be able to predict and how severely pissed off this makes me.

I hope they all get turned down for the first 2 dozen jobs they apply for because they can't speak English.

If I lived in France, I'd except to be unhireable because I don't speak French. The same for Germany, or India, or Brasil, or any other number of countries whose native language is different from my own. My French is poor, my Italian worse. My German is non-existent. I don't live in those countries.

This is the US, where the accepted language of trade is American English. Learn to speak it (or a close variant thereof - British English, Australian or Canadian, for example) or get the fuck out of the country and go somewhere where the accepted language *is* that which you speak.

Then you can tell all of us English speakers to learn *your* language if we want to live and work in that country.

Oh wait, you can't do that, can you? Because Ebonics doesn't have a home country? Because it's not a fucking real language is it? It's lazy slang pieced together by too-cool-for-school retards who all want to grow up to be gangsta rappers and who can swagger around, pretending to have a firearm strapped under their arm, but couldn't enunciate the phrase 'underarm holster' if their life depended upon it.

Bah.

I said I wasn't going to comment.

I'm going to crawl into a corner now.

p.s. Edited to add: I make no statement of color in my post. I know people of all colors to whom my statement applies. Blacks may be primary users of 'Ebonics', but they are not its sole users, and they certainly do not have a monopoly on the personality type I described in my final paragraph.

I think you made the most salient point. It isn't a language. It's a shorthand of a language. More or less the equivlent of the computer shorthand many of us use to cut down on typing.

 

[pop_54]

I grew up in a working class neighborhood and I got to go see starwars. We had a TV, even a VCR. And I read quite a bit.

I went to school with kids from poor neighborhoods and I mean really poor. They used their library cards a little less often than I did, but they went to see starwars too and they all had TV's, most with cable well before we got it.

I don't really understand what you were getting at?

Gauche didn't say anything dear, he said so at the end of his post, didn't you lad Or was it that he thinks a lot of modern youth learn their language and habits of life from crappy comic books rather than proper schooling... must get mother to have a word with the lad.

I too grew up in a very poor neighbourhood colly love, borne of poor parents, we were so poor mum got most of our clothing from the Army & Navy stores... I was 14 before I realised I wasn't really a Japanese admiral.

Can't add much of sense to this post I'm afraid, wrong continent... We talks reel English over ere.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

Gauche didn't say anything dear, he said so at the end of his post, didn't you lad Or was it that he thinks a lot of modern youth learn their language and habits of life from crappy comic books rather than proper schooling... must get mother to have a word with the lad.

I too grew up in a very poor neighbourhood colly love, borne of poor parents, we were so poor mum got most of our clothing from the Army & Navy stores... I was 14 before I realised I wasn't really a Japanese admiral.

Can't add much of sense to this post I'm afraid, wrong continent... We talks reel English over ere.

POPS!

So very glad to see you. I was pretty worried about you.

*HUGS*

 

[pop_54]

POPS!

So very glad to see you. I was pretty worried about you.

*HUGS*

I'm fine darling *Uge Ugs*

 

[gauchecritic]

cheers dad.

I grew up in a working class neighborhood and I got to go see starwars. We had a TV, even a VCR. And I read quite a bit.

I went to school with kids from poor neighborhoods and I mean really poor. They used their library cards a little less often than I did, but they went to see starwars too and they all had TV's, most with cable well before we got it.

I don't really understand what you were getting at?

My point was that they are generally capable of understanding written/spoken English but prefer to not use it.

I was however, making a sweeping statement about a sub-culture and by implication stating that not a single one of them could read or write. That was one of those things that I would have had to apologise for and went completely against my personal belief that you should never apologise.

But. I thought the point did need making although without the tacit implication, which is why I felt the need to add 'forget what I said'.

This free speech business is a fucker.

 

[Colleen Thomas]

My point was that they are generally capable of understanding written/spoken English but prefer to not use it.

I was however, making a sweeping statement about a sub-culture and by implication stating that not a single one of them could read or write. That was one of those things that I would have had to apologise for and went completely against my personal belief that you should never apologise.

But. I thought the point did need making although without the tacit implication, which is why I felt the need to add 'forget what I said'.

This free speech business is a fucker.

Thank you for the clarification.

 

[BlackShanglan]

I think that Sharingfantasies has the right of this and put in a very informative post.

The key question here is not "shall we teach students to speak Ebonics and nothing else?" but "shall we approach teaching English to these students as if we were teaching them a second language?" If one looks at it from this perspective, then concerns about employment and ability to continue on to college can be seen as possibly more effectively addressed through this program rather than less. If we recognize that these students are speaking radically differently to what is expected in higher education and in the work force, and if we approach them as people who both have their own language and need to be taught a new one, we might be able to address that problem more effectively.

One of the things we might then draw upon is the pool of research showing that students who speak another language - any other language - perform better academically on all levels including new language acquisition if they are given some instruction in their native language. It allows them to master areas like math and science in a familiar language while progressing in learning their new one, and it also allows them to succeed academically instead of finding all of their subjects a baffling melange of new information and unfamiliar vocabulary and grammatical structures.

If one of the school district's goals is retention, then providing students with some chance of success while mastering their new language is crucial. I'm not talking about watering down final requirements for English language mastery; I'm talking about recognizing that these students will need time to master "Network" English and that in the mean time, they are much more likely to stay in school and be academically engaged if they are given some hope of learning. Yes, it's important to have people who set standards in schools, and who show students what will and will not be acceptable in higher education and in professional life. But it's also important for teachers to be teachers - to impart knowledge and not merely demand it, and to show students how to achieve the goals they are set. Bilingual instruction, whether in Ebonics or any other language, has an important role to play there.

So does attitude. Telling someone that s/he speaks incorrectly is painful territory for the recipient. We've probably all experienced the joy of having someone correct our pronunciation in front of other people, and we all know how good that feels. Perhaps that's why on this board, we're generally kind to each other on topics like spelling, comma usage, and typos. We know that it hurts to be told that one's ideas have been overlooked in favor of attacking one's grammar. That's something that teachers have to keep in mind when working with students from varied linguistic backgrounds. Again, I'm not saying that students don't need to learn how to communicate in Network/"standard" written and spoken English. Rather, I'm saying that it's a lot kinder and more engaging to explain this to students in terms of learning a new language than in terms of them being idiots who can't speak correctly.

Yes, some people will puff and blow - they're incorrect! Why should we be kind and gentle to them? Well, first, because they are children - and second, because it works. No one wants to go a school to be treated like an idiot every day. No one wants to work for someone who reacts to his or her every spoken work as imbecility. No one learns in an atmosphere where s/he is first afraid, then increasingly defensive and hostile as every encounter appears to be a personal attack - for there is nothing more personal than language. I think all of us must realize that on some level, or at least those of us who have experienced the joys of having a hard-wrought work bombed by trolls or eviscerated for its minor flaws. We've all felt the temptation, no doubt, when some favorite story we've put our hearts into is shredded, to just give up. Now imagine that happening every day and with every work you speak aloud, and ask how long that student will keep speaking and keep writing. How long will the student keep trying?

My only qualm with the Ebonics approach is its definition. I think it works well as Sharingfantasies describes it, and its purpose is clear and closely connected to language acquisition programs for other non-(Network)English speakers. But that's within a single school district in which some basic level of linguistic coherency may be apparent. I'm more leery of the article's definition of Ebonics as a single language current in the African-American community, as I think it would be a very odd thing if a geographically and culturally diverse group of people all happened to speak exactly the same language. American Caucasians, Latino/as, Asians, and Natives don't all speak the same language or the same form of the language, and it would be unwise to assume that they did. My chief concern with Ebonics is that we'll end up slapping a single label (and teaching method and text support) on all varities of speech of all African-American people in the entire country. This strikes me as being as unlikely as suggesting that Caucasian students from rural populations in Maine, South Carolina, and North Dakota were likely to share the same linguistic deviations from "Network." I could, naturally, be wrong on this, but I think it's worth approaching the issue with caution from that particular point.

Shanglan