Easily Squicked Readers

[XerXesXu]

I don't know what those are.

I suppose if you're the sort of author who can't handle any criticism, or is outraged that anyone could say anything negative about your story, you might qualify. But that's obviously -- quite obviously -- not what I'm talking about.

I don't mind criticism, and I have a very thick skin. I don't take criticism personally. But as a matter of principle I object when readers say to me -- or to any other author -- "I hate the subject matter of what you write, and I want to shut you down. I automatically give you a '1' just because I hate the subject matter."

I think it's a juvenile and narrow-minded way to be a reader, and to vote, and to comment.

I recognize that calling attention to it isn't going to stop it. Just this morning, I got another comment of this sort to my latest story. This is what they said: "Sorry 1 Star. Not interested in WHORE stories."

It doesn't bother me personally, and I haven't deleted the comment.

But I still think it's a narrow-minded and intolerant attitude that is worth calling attention to, and bringing up, and occasionally posting something new about it, even if it's been brought up before, because tolerance and free speech are always under assault, and I believe this Site should be a haven for both. And, to me, that means actively supporting a culture in which authors feel comfortable and free to explore their fantasies through their stories, without guilt or shame. I think it's a good thing. It has nothing whatsoever to do with being "squicked" as an author, which I don't even think means anything.

"tolerance and free speech are always under assault, and I believe this Site should be a haven for both"

The site's rating system invites it. 1* = Hate It. Many readers will take this literally. Why should they not?

Are you sure this site supports "a culture in which authors feel comfortable and free to explore their fantasies through their stories, without guilt or shame."? If so, it got it's rating system wrong.

 

[KeithD]

The site isn't the writers' mother. It provides services and protections in several ways. The rest of the way the writers need to take responsibility for themselves and handle what comes at them or go somewhere else--just like everywhere else in the world where they operate.

 

[SimonDoom]

Are you sure this site supports "a culture in which authors feel comfortable and free to explore their fantasies through their stories, without guilt or shame."? If so, it got it's rating system wrong.

I'm not sure that it always does, but I think it should.

You pose a good question. If you hate a story, why not give it a 1? My answer to that is that one should hate intelligently, not reflexively. I NEVER downvote a story just because I dislike the subject matter. I realize many readers/voters think differently from the way I do, and I cannot change their habits. But I can speak up about it, and that's the point of my post. I might just be pissing into the wind, but I think it's a point worth making.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Please don't kill the messenger, but I think, as a writer, I need to read things that push my boundaries at times. I have written stuff that's out there, way past appropriate, as therapy. I have published some of that. I try to get that far out in the disgust zone anymore. Still, once in a while, I like to read what's that can happen.

I publish different things on different sites; I can reveal things about what I think in other places. I put somewhat edgier material on a certain site - not sure why, there is less of a community there perhaps? It has lower standards? It gives me flexibility to experiment.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I'm not sure that it always does, but I think it should.

You pose a good question. If you hate a story, why not give it a 1? My answer to that is that one should hate intelligently, not reflexively. I NEVER downvote a story just because I dislike the subject matter. I realize many readers/voters think differently from the way I do, and I cannot change their habits. But I can speak up about it, and that's the point of my post. I might just be pissing into the wind, but I think it's a point worth making.

Part of the problem is the badge given to a one-vote - "Hate it". It sets the rating system up as a school playground from the get-go, and in a way legitimizes pointless negativism.

Like you, I don't have a problem with the concept of a one-vote if the reader a) has read the whole story; and b) there's a fair reason for such a vote. The first can be monitored, the second - well, you have to give credit for intelligence which might not be there. But someone down-voting just because they don't like your content, or because it "upsets" their view of a category, and for no other reason, is just someone being an asshole because they can be. Which is why I'll leave a comment if there's a modicum of an explanation, but I'll delete it if it's just a turd on the lawn.

 

[NotWise]

Part of the problem is the badge given to a one-vote - "Hate it". It sets the rating system up as a school playground from the get-go, and in a way legitimizes pointless negativism.

I don't think the caption changes the way people vote.

The descriptions for the votes changed with the new user interface. They were worded as if voters were expected to be familiar with the whole Lit library, and could critically rank the story. The caption for a 1* vote was something like "Among the worst stories on Literotica."

The change captions the votes more the way the voters think. It doesn't make them think that way.

1* votes are just a bitter little pill we have to swallow because you can't please all the people all the time.

 

[XerXesXu]

I don't think the caption changes the way people vote.

The descriptions for the votes changed with the new user interface. They were worded as if voters were expected to be familiar with the whole Lit library, and could critically rank the story. The caption for a 1* vote was something like "Among the worst stories on Literotica."

I can run the new interface under Bluestacks on my desktop (mini-PC stuck on the back of my 40in TV screen). I'll be using the old interface as long as it's available.

The ratings have changed 3* is now 'Liked it - keep on writing', which is an improvement on 'Average'. 1*, however, is 'I hated it."

 

[RejectReality]

I doubt the labeling matters either. If it did, here's the labeling for one of the other sites where I post.

10 Most Amazing Story
9 Great
8 Very Good
7 Good
6 Not Bad
5 Some Good, Some Bad
4 Not Good
3 Pretty Bad
2 Hated It
1 You Call This A Story?

There's a rating worse than hated it.

They tried out a three tiered scoring system for a while. You had a score for technical, one for plot, and one for enjoyability. The one that affected your displayed score was enjoyability. I think that says a lot about what the scoring system is supposed to stand for. You could obviously argue that the plot and technical merits are a part of enjoyability, but it's the trump card.

The other site where I post has a similar labeling scheme to Lit's.

5 Excellent
4 Good
3 Average
2 Fair
1 Poor

2's "fair" is certainly a less triggering word than "dislike", but it doesn't really matter. The scoring skews even more toward the high end than it does here.

I think the sites are operating within the reality of internet polling. It's 100% emotion based, and creative labeling isn't going to change that.

 

[jaF0]

1 You Call This A Story?

I get a lot of those here.

 

[NotWise]

I can run the new interface under Bluestacks on my desktop (mini-PC stuck on the back of my 40in TV screen). I'll be using the old interface as long as it's available.

The ratings have changed 3* is now 'Liked it - keep on writing', which is an improvement on 'Average'. 1*, however, is 'I hated it."

I think we're on different pages as to what is new and what is old. The new interface (still in beta) has

1* Hate it
2* Dislike
3* Average
4* Like it
5* Love it

If I use the wayback machine to pull up one of my old stories, I get this from 2017 (on mouse-over) :

1* I Hated It!
2* I Didn't Like It Much
3* Liked It - Keep On Writing
4* Really Liked It - Good Read!
5* Loved It - One Of The Best!

Obviously not what I remembered, but also not much different from current.

 

[NotWise]

I can't help but read that in Paul Hogan's voice.


Also, y'all are making me nervous about sharing more stories on here, lol.

Don't worry. It's all fun as long as you don't worry about it.

 

[XerXesXu]

I think we're on different pages as to what is new and what is old. The new interface (still in beta) has

1* Hate it
2* Dislike
3* Average
4* Like it
5* Love it

If I use the wayback machine to pull up one of my old stories, I get this from 2017 (on mouse-over) :

1* I Hated It!
2* I Didn't Like It Much
3* Liked It - Keep On Writing
4* Really Liked It - Good Read!
5* Loved It - One Of The Best!

Obviously not what I remembered, but also not much different from current.

Then I have no idea what's happening. I've never opted into the beta interface on my desktop. In Bluestacks (Android) there's no option I can find to opt in, so I assumed it was running the beta. That's why I loaded it, to find out what the beta was like. Lit has a habit of always leaving one guessing.

 

[NotWise]

Then I have no idea what's happening. I've never opted into the beta interface on my desktop. In Bluestacks (Android) there's no option I can find to opt in, so I assumed it was running the beta. That's why I loaded it, to find out what the beta was like. Lit has a habit of always leaving one guessing.

It's kind of a mess that I don't completely understand. The new page went into beta testing a couple years ago, and I've been using it since then. It's old news to me.

The new interface became the default interface in March (on the 19th, I think), and that triggered big problems because the back end of the new page had an issue that the beta review didn't find. It changed the way the site's fraud detection system worked, and votes were lost from a lot of stories. There may have been other complicating factors in that as well.

They may have reversed the decision to make the new page the default, but I don't really remember. The new page still has the "beta test" text, but I don't seem to be able to revert to the old version. I don't actually want to revert to the old version, but I've had reasons to do that for test and comparison.

To make things worse, what you see might depend on your browser and the system you're running.

 

[RejectReality]

It's kind of a mess that I don't completely understand. The new page went into beta testing a couple years ago, and I've been using it since then. It's old news to me.

The new interface became the default interface in March (on the 19th, I think), and that triggered big problems because the back end of the new page had an issue that the beta review didn't find. It changed the way the site's fraud detection system worked, and votes were lost from a lot of stories. There may have been other complicating factors in that as well.

They may have reversed the decision to make the new page the default, but I don't really remember. The new page still has the "beta test" text, but I don't seem to be able to revert to the old version. I don't actually want to revert to the old version, but I've had reasons to do that for test and comparison.

To make things worse, what you see might depend on your browser and the system you're running.

You should be able to opt out from any story's page on the right sidebar, below the stats and such. That's how I opted out for my Darkniciad pen name. I still use the Lit ID# in my signature, because it radically reduces the # of characters required to display a link. There's only one way to get that # under the new interface, and it requires a comment that's cleared the queue. Not exactly convenient. It's available in many locations as soon as the story posts under the old interface, so I can immediately update my signature.

If you have frequent need of the old version while it exists, you might consider creating an account specifically for that purpose. Keeping it logged in under a different browser is expedient for me, but that's as much about being able to check story stats in all three names without all the login, logout trouble. If you just need to look up something every so often, one browser will probably work just fine. All you need is a new email addy to create an account.

 

[NotWise]

You should be able to opt out from any story's page on the right sidebar, below the stats and such. That's how I opted out for my Darkniciad pen name. I still use the Lit ID# in my signature, because it radically reduces the # of characters required to display a link. There's only one way to get that # under the new interface, and it requires a comment that's cleared the queue. Not exactly convenient. It's available in many locations as soon as the story posts under the old interface, so I can immediately update my signature.

If you have frequent need of the old version while it exists, you might consider creating an account specifically for that purpose. Keeping it logged in under a different browser is expedient for me, but that's as much about being able to check story stats in all three names without all the login, logout trouble. If you just need to look up something every so often, one browser will probably work just fine. All you need is a new email addy to create an account.

I don't have any need for the old interface -- or at least I thought I didn't. I much prefer the new interface.

 

[JuanaSalsa]

While I can understand the value of a rating system that measures your connection to the audience as a writer, as a reader I would prefer to know if a story is downvoted because of the topic vs the quality of the product.

I enjoy many topics that other readers find emotionally disturbing and it's irritating to never know is some story with a 3 rating is poorly written or just edgy. It would be awesome to have two ratings, one for technicality and one for enjoyment.

As a writer I value comments and favorites more than the rating, especially when I write about less common kinks. I'm frankly amazed that my dendrophilia story is above a 4.5. I am completely unsurprised that my rape story is below a 4.5. My stories are not meant to connect with everyone, just the right people. Sometimes they connect with more people than I thought they would and that's rather awesome.

Anyway, if the purpose of ratings is to help other readers, it would be nice if people voted based on writing quality rather than personal taste. That would mean that I could read less poor writing when seeking out really edgy stories. But probably that's asking too much of people who are just here to be entertained.

 

[ElectricBlue]

I honestly think it's complete nonsense to require the reading of a whole story before allowing people to vote. What would be the function of 1* voting in that case - why would anyone without masochistic tendencies torture him/herself by force-reading through a complete story, just to be able to indicate how horribly bad it was? What if it is a +10k words story?

When I've read through 1/3 of a story to find out it has checked all the wrong boxes for me, I see no issue in rating it with a 1*. Forcing myself through one page should suffice to have an opinion; it's my opinion, and the site allows me to share it.

Ticking the wrong boxes is a reflection on you, not the story. You're not rating the story on its merits, you're rating the story because you don't like it. Why don't you just back out and leave the story alone, if you're not going to read it?

Do you accept the same criteria on your own stories? If I came along and one-bombed your work because I don't like writers with two "R"s in their name - you'd be happy with that? Because in effect, that's an (extreme) version of what you're saying.

That's all we're asking for here - that a story be judged on its merits, not because you don't like the colour blue. That's not really fair on the writer who is trying to appeal to those who do like blue.

 

[jaF0]

Did the Squicked thread turn into yet another voting thread?

 

[JuanaSalsa]

Please don't kill the messenger, but I think, as a writer, I need to read things that push my boundaries at times. I have written stuff that's out there, way past appropriate, as therapy. I have published some of that. I try to get that far out in the disgust zone anymore. Still, once in a while, I like to read what's that can happen.

Millie, I think that writing as therapy is really important and a lot of people can benefit from reading it too. There's always a balance between fantasy and reality. I certainly write about things that I've experienced form other perspectives, and the comments are really helpful too.

In a story I just wrote (Dane in the Rain), the main character is a lot like me from twenty years ago and I was actually surprised how pissed off some of the male commenters were on my character's behalf. It was heart warming to see.

I think that there's a strong stigma against enjoying taboo fantasies for both men and women, and when you've been abused yourself it can make it feel even worse to still enjoy those themes in fiction. I find it helpful for my characters to experience all the emotions that go along with the scene, humiliation, guilt, desire, shame, all of it. I like it less when the characters actions are described without the emotional component. But, everyone is different.

I remember reading your story "cold encounter" when it was first published and I really liked it. It is well-written, viscerally descriptive, and emotionally all there. I hope that you don't let the negative comments stop you from writing what you want to write.

 

[gunhilltrain]

Similar comments have been left on stories in Romance and other categories with the all-caps WHORE. It might be the same person.

Someone commented on "Love is Enough" to the effect of "Your characters aren't flappers, they're WHORES." It made me laugh because the characters (Hannah and Gabby) were prostitutes--well, before all that happened, anyway. Even they admitted to being whores.

By coincidence, I've started to get comments complaining about any depictions of prostitutes. Yeah, prostitution has downsides. Doesn't that go without saying?

There is nothing to be done about comments and voting (unless one wants to go the route of other sites that ban non-members from participating). There are just too many tens of thousands, probably hundreds of thousands, of people out there who can just drop in and do what they wish.

I sometimes amuse myself by imagining that inmates from prisons and mental hospitals are using their one hour of daily Internet access to come here. Of course, that is surely not true, but it makes me feel better anyway.

 

[SimonDoom]

I honestly think it's complete nonsense to require the reading of a whole story before allowing people to vote. What would be the function of 1* voting in that case - why would anyone without masochistic tendencies torture him/herself by force-reading through a complete story, just to be able to indicate how horribly bad it was? What if it is a +10k words story?

When I've read through 1/3 of a story to find out it has checked all the wrong boxes for me, I see no issue in rating it with a 1*. Forcing myself through one page should suffice to have an opinion; it's my opinion, and the site allows me to share it.

Maybe I HATE stories that start with "It was a dark and stormy night", and in that case, 1* can fit as the right label within one sentence . I don't believe that the site asks me to evaluate the quality of a story; it asks me to share how I (being an individual) feel about it.

I rarely rate a story with 1 or 2*, but I don't believe it's wrong. I think it's wrong when people only rate stories when it's worth a 5*, as it messes up the voting-system. And perhaps even worse is restricting yourself to rewarding a story with 4* when you don't like it, while otherwise giving 5*.

I don't really have a problem with that, either. If you've read enough of the story to give it a fair shake and you find it to be genuinely dreadful, it's fair to give it a score that reflects your genuine opinion. I personally prefer to finish a story before voting on it, but to be honest I know to a near certainty what score I would give a story by the time I'm one-third of the way through it. I can often tell the quality of a story within a few paragraphs of the beginning.

The 1-5 scale exists for a purpose, which is to convey information to would-be readers about the quality of the story. If it's a really horrible story, readers should know.

But that purpose is NOT served well when as a reader you give the story a 1 just because you hate the subject matter and you are not voting based on the quality of the story. And a lot of that goes on at Literotica. For instance, in the Loving Wives category, it's relatively more difficult for a fan of "hot wife" stories to find good recent examples of those stories because they are downvoted so badly. Virtually all of the top-rated stories now in that category are of the "revenge against the cheating wife" variety. Subject-matter downvoting obscures the quality of certain kinds of stories from readers who are looking for them.

 

[MillieDynamite]

Millie, I think that writing as therapy is really important and a lot of people can benefit from reading it too. There's always a balance between fantasy and reality. I certainly write about things that I've experienced form other perspectives, and the comments are really helpful too.

In a story I just wrote (Dane in the Rain), the main character is a lot like me from twenty years ago and I was actually surprised how pissed off some of the male commenters were on my character's behalf. It was heart warming to see.

I think that there's a strong stigma against enjoying taboo fantasies for both men and women, and when you've been abused yourself it can make it feel even worse to still enjoy those themes in fiction. I find it helpful for my characters to experience all the emotions that go along with the scene, humiliation, guilt, desire, shame, all of it. I like it less when the characters actions are described without the emotional component. But, everyone is different.

I remember reading your story "cold encounter" when it was first published and I really liked it. It is well-written, viscerally descriptive, and emotionally all there. I hope that you don't let the negative comments stop you from writing what you want to write.

I love that story. I know it isn't everyone's cup of tea. Still, it was important for me to write. And yes, it was therapy.

 

[XerXesXu]

I sometimes amuse myself by imagining that inmates from prisons and mental hospitals are using their one hour of daily Internet access to come here. Of course, that is surely not true, but it makes me feel better anyway.

I used to represent such people in getting sprung, and returning to a street near you ... and your children. They would write wank sheets for each other, similar to the non-con stories on Lit, but featuring their index offences. They saw them as mutual validation. 'They' loved it really'.

About 1 in 40 rapists are convicted and imprisoned in the UK (allegedly); where do you think the other 39/40 go for self validation? Lit perhaps?

Here's one guy who lucked out.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...-behind-bars/ar-AAN7sBH?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

 

[MillieDynamite]

I used to represent such people in getting sprung, and returning to a street near you ... and your children. They would write wank sheets for each other, similar to the non-con stories on Lit, but featuring their index offences. They saw them as mutual validation. 'They' loved it really'.

About 1 in 40 rapists are convicted and imprisoned in the UK (allegedly); where do you think the other 39/40 go for self validation? Lit perhaps?

Here's one guy who lucked out.

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/worl...-behind-bars/ar-AAN7sBH?ocid=msedgdhp&pc=U531

I'm sorry he killed the guy. More concerned the justice system didn't find some mercy for him. If the other prisoner did rape her, he got more than he deserved, but not less than I would have wished on him had it been me he hurt.

 

[XerXesXu]

I don't really have a problem with that, either. If you've read enough of the story to give it a fair shake and you find it to be genuinely dreadful, it's fair to give it a score that reflects your genuine opinion. I personally prefer to finish a story before voting on it, but to be honest I know to a near certainty what score I would give a story by the time I'm one-third of the way through it. I can often tell the quality of a story within a few paragraphs of the beginning.

The 1-5 scale exists for a purpose, which is to convey information to would-be readers about the quality of the story. If it's a really horrible story, readers should know.

But that purpose is NOT served well when as a reader you give the story a 1 just because you hate the subject matter and you are not voting based on the quality of the story. And a lot of that goes on at Literotica. For instance, in the Loving Wives category, it's relatively more difficult for a fan of "hot wife" stories to find good recent examples of those stories because they are downvoted so badly. Virtually all of the top-rated stories now in that category are of the "revenge against the cheating wife" variety. Subject-matter downvoting obscures the quality of certain kinds of stories from readers who are looking for them.

This illustrates the dilemma. If you sit in the coffee shop at your favourite book store, and watch the punters reviewing the books they wish to sit and browse from the piles of best sellers and promos, and put them on the clock, most are returned to the pile within one minute. Some I would return after reading the back cover blurb. I do it. That has nothing to do with whether it's a good story or well written: it's everything to do with my taste in fiction. I don't hate any stories, I find that difficult to understand, but if I were to rate it I wouldn't do so on the basis that it was 'my thing', be that a taste in erotica, or anything else.