"Dumbing Down" College for Women & Minorities

[amicus]

Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know, I must be a Troll to dare post such a flammable post and like some twit said on another thread, 'you are neither a woman or a gay or a minority so you have no right to an opinion!', Yeah, yeah, yeah, and I ain't a college student or female or a minority either...sue me.

But it is my country; and higher education is important to the future of my country, the world in fact, as America is at the center of everything. (This was acknowledged at the G20 meeting of recent)

56% of college students are female. Minorities are an increasingly large percentage of college students.

Women tend not to seek degrees in science and engineering, math and physics. They prefer Liberal Arts degrees.

Do your own search, but only a third of minority students graduate.

Fewer women graduate, percentage wise, than men.

There are grants galore for minorities and women, the white male is left out in the cold.

Remedial classes in English and Math are rampant for incoming freshmen.

College tuition rates, and consequently the loan amounts to students is constantly increasing.

The 'populist' attitude of sending every kid to college is destroying education and bankrupting a nation, and they all come out of college, those that make it, with a head full of liberal fascist indoctrination that will influence their lifestyles and work performance until they grow up.

"Where have all the men gone." Was a question I saw in several places while browsing for research material.

Do your own damned Google.

Amicus...

 

[Pure]

any evidence.

i would like to see the evidence that women, once you control for background, graduate from college less often than men

//Fewer women graduate, percentage wise, than men.//

as you may know, women now represent 1/3 or more of entering classes in law schools and professional schools, which require, in general, a BA.

further, iirc, the high school dropout problem affects young MALES disproportionately, and hence young females represent, often, a MAJORITY of graduates at a given high school. IOW the females of 18 [hs grads + dropouts], on average, are BETTER prepared than the males on average, once you include dropouts.

therefore i see no reason to assume that of women who enter, a fewer percentage graduate than men.

you would, of course, have to control for interruptions [not dropping out] due to pregnancy.

i am aware, of course, that the SAT has been made easier, but you've given no evidence it's for the reasons you suggest; perhaps it's because all kids, on average, are less literate.
===

whether certain colleges, for reasons of social equity, should lower the 'paper' requirements (SAT, grades) to attract minorities, or seek to reach 'targets', for diversity, and how well those minorities do, is a different issue. but i seem to recall that for some minorities, e.g. hispanic, the women do quite well.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Take it to the bank: When a woman walks in the front door, pay & benefits leave by the back door. Every vocation women nest becomes a pink-collar ghetto. Men know this and look for greener pastures.

Count noses. Pick places at random, count males and females. If the males outnumber the females, the pay and benefits are better than if the females outnumber the males. And men dominate vocations where transferable skills are low.

They also dominate vocations that are dangerous and hazardous and inconvenient. Most of what college offers isnt dangerous, hazardous, or inconvenient work. Colleges turn out teachers, social workers, librarians, poets, lawyers, accountants, and nurses. Careers for women and mama's boys.

Real men wanna build cars and bridges, and fix computers and airplanes, and harvest oil and timber and fish.

 

[DesertPirate]

The dumbing down isn't for women and minorities, it's a result of the failure of public education. Kids coming out of high school aren't ready for college!

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

DP

You know, some folks do basketball best, and some folks do academics best. A few of us dont do either. But for the last 30 years we've been invested in diversifying Harvard and postponing failure until it gets there or out in the real world.

I guarantee you that if we skipped all the feel-good hype, gave every Minority American 5 million dollars and their choice of an MD, MBA, or PhD, in 5 years 98% of them would be selling crack, waiting tables, and flipping burgers as if none of the other ever happened.

 

[cloudy]

The dumbing down isn't for women and minorities, it's a result of the failure of public education. Kids coming out of high school aren't ready for college!

Depends on the kid, and the parents. You certainly can't lay the blame all on the education system.

I have one kid with her master's (a minority, and a woman), one kid in college already (a minority), and one well on his way.

If they haven't gotten a good education, it would be more my fault than anyone else's.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

CLOUDY

I cant name anyone whose ever hinted that Injuns are dum....except for every tribe but my own, of course. The Cherokee, bless them, had a written language, and those other goobers finger-painted.

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[CeriseNoire]

The 'populist' attitude of sending every kid to college is destroying education and bankrupting a nation.
Amicus...

Ah, amidst all the fluff, a hint of logic. I do agree that college seems to be dumbing down a little more each year. It's just your assertion of who it is for I disagree with, although I know it simply fits your view of the world.

I do agree with those who pointed to the lack of preparedness, but even with that, the blame lays on more than one person. For example, when society glorifies stupidity and lack of inquisitiveness, it devalues what parents may be teaching. When parents sue because giving their kids the grade they earned might "hurt their self-esteem", it matters little what schools may have to teach. When classes for the average are renamed Advanced for the sake of appearances, it's no wonder colleges have to lower expectations of be left with little to no eligible applicants.

 

[Belegon]

considering the utter mess the male-dominated financial sector is in, perhaps we guys should consider switching the glass walls of our house for brick before we start stone-throwing...


I live with a female college graduate. I think her degree is in... is it basket weaving?

No, Ami you controversy-loving I-love-to-start-a-fight freak. Its in Mathematics. She far outstrips me in raw intelligence and in the sciences. And it doesn't bother me to say so... I know that I am above the averages in both areas.

Meanwhile, yes I graduated. From a tough school with a 3.48 GPA while being involved across the board in all the activities and sports and campus politics, etc.

And now I am in a career where I SHOULD have a liberal arts degree. And the financial services sector I worked in for the last ten years? All but in ruins.

Ami, you ignorant slut. I think more women in the top ranks certainly couldn't do any worse...

 

[PrincessErin]

.....

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

considering the utter mess the male-dominated financial sector is in, perhaps we guys should consider switching the glass walls of our house for brick before we start stone-throwing...


I live with a female college graduate. I think her degree is in... is it basket weaving?

No, Ami you controversy-loving I-love-to-start-a-fight freak. Its in Mathematics. She far outstrips me in raw intelligence and in the sciences. And it doesn't bother me to say so... I know that I am above the averages in both areas.

Meanwhile, yes I graduated. From a tough school with a 3.48 GPA while being involved across the board in all the activities and sports and campus politics, etc.

And now I am in a career where I SHOULD have a liberal arts degree. And the financial services sector I worked in for the last ten years? All but in ruins.

Ami, you ignorant slut. I think more women in the top ranks certainly couldn't do any worse...

TJHIS IS YOUR STANDARD TWO HEADED SNAKE FALLACY: I ONCE SAW A TWO-HEADED SNAKE, THEREFORE ALL SNAKES HAVE TWO HEADS. Some women excel at math and science and most cant be less interested in it.

I read something the other day, it was about marathon runners. The best female runner places behind something like 600 male runners. She is faster than me, but so fucking what? 600 men are faster then she is.

 

[alaskabibear]

Interesting (and important) topic. I hate to see it go into a silly direction about women vs men...but, if Amicus didn't add some spice I wonder if many would comment at all???

Anyway, the fact that the education system is "dummied down" is a given. But I suggest that it has to do more with the loss of both agricultural and manufacturing opportunities than ethnicity or gender.

People are born with different talents and interests. Not all men or women truly desire to pursue advanced education and perform intellectual type of work, just as many would not enjoy manual labor. However, for the last couple of generations the national mantra has been the elimination of our capacity to "produce real goods" and move toward the "new economy of the 21st century" (or as I see it - paper pushing, advertising, entertainment, insurance, financial derivatives and such). Thus, all of our children have been pushed toward "higher education" as the only way to succeed. And those who didn't pursue college were marginalized. Thus, more and more people who were neither interested or "hard-wired" for it pursued the college path. As a result, the education system adjusted so that the majority would make it through. Had they not, the majority who tried would have quickly failed...and that would have been politically unacceptable.

I think we will see more of this "dumming down" as a result of this last economic re-shuffling. Many of the manufacturing and construction jobs lost in this "recession" will never come back (at least not in America). Just as the small farmer never came back after the Great Depression and Dust Bowl years.

A bit of topic now, but...The days of the single male bread winner are over in America. It is not individually anyone's fault. Instead it is a great leveling of the economic standing and quality of life of individuals around the globe. In short, Americans are getting poorer as others in developing countries are improving their standard of living. And I'm all for all people of all nations having a higher standard of living. But our economic systems are not properly tuned for that to happen without some real pain I think. Thus, virtually all women must work in today's America whether they want to or not. And some men must seek out Certified Nursing Assistant jobs despite the fact that in the past century they might have been happily walking behind a plow horse.

So, until we as a nation (including those who hold the wealth) decide that all jobs are worthy of a living wage...and that our peoples best interests are more important that saving a penny or two by shopping at "ChinaMart"...and that not all people want to or should have to go to college...well, until then I guess we'll just follow the course we're on...and eventually anyone who wants to say they have advanced education will have to hold a Phd. and spend 10 years in college....so I guess in my opinion, Amicus' theory is not correct in it's position that women are the cause of the dumming down of America.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

Women arent the cause of dumming down. As a kid I knew women who went to college to become aeronautical engineers. One of my junior high school teachers worked on bomber design during World War 2. The issue isnt CAN THEY DO IT? The issue is 600 MEN CAN DO IT BETTER and most of them cant find jobs doing what they do best. The jobs dont exist for everyone with the essential skills and talents to have a job.

 

[WRJames]

You are just complaining about dumbing down now? This started in the late sixties and was rampant in the early seventies.

Grade inflation, in particular, is a scandal. We have been certififying students, both male and female, white, black, or whatever -- that have no actual knowledge of the subjects they may have received good grades in.

 

[sr71plt]

You are just complaining about dumbing down now? This started in the late sixties and was rampant in the early seventies.

Grade inflation, in particular, is a scandal. We have been certififying students, both male and female, white, black, or whatever -- that have no actual knowledge of the subjects they may have received good grades in.

And white male athletes too, by the way.


I don't think this reflects that any section of the population is, as a group, innately less or more intelligent than any other--it's just that there has always been favoritism in college class balancing toward one grouping over another for a multitude of reasons--some with good intent, many without.

Folks around here like to trot Thomas Jefferson out on issues of equality--I went to "his" university (and it was a State university) at a time when women weren't admitted at all and there was nary an American black face in the undergraduate division. Now white males are in a minority there--and except for the athletes being given degrees for basketweaving, the intellectual level of the university doesn't seem to have suffered at all. (A little less drunken partying, though.)

 

[oggbashan]

In the UK, more women enter university and graduate than men in almost every subject including the "hard" ones.

If there is any dumbing down, it is required for men who get tend to get lower grades in examinations at 16 and 18.

However there is significant evidence that the examinations at 16 and 18 are much easier than they were 20,30,40 or 50 years ago. The examinations that my parents took at 14 in the 1920s appear more challenging than current University entrance levels. They certainly required more basic knowledge of English and Mathematics than is now expected at 18. The Mathematics might have been different but the performance required was high.

For many years our Labour Government has had a target of 50% of all children going to University. They haven't met it even though they have reclassified almost every post-18 college as a "university", introduced more "soft" courses and encouraged lower standards for entry and graduation.

Og

 

[amicus]

This turned out to be, thus far anyway, a much more productive area of concern than expected; somewhat renews my faith (ahem) in the forum at large.

~~~

alaskabibear...

"...So, until we as a nation (including those who hold the wealth) decide that all jobs are worthy of a living wage...and that our peoples best interests are more important that saving a penny or two by shopping at "ChinaMart"...and that not all people want to or should have to go to college...well, until then I guess we'll just follow the course we're on...and eventually anyone who wants to say they have advanced education will have to hold a Phd. and spend 10 years in college....so I guess in my opinion, Amicus' theory is not correct in it's position that women are the cause of the dumming down of America..."

First part of your presentation was interesting, last part is heavily colored by your dislike of our economic system and a complete misunderstanding as to why two breadwinners are required to support a family. And, so I don't forget, nothing offered served as a refutation that educational standards have been lowered to accommodate women and minorities.

The bolded words above are 'buzz words', so to speak; they also imply a lack of understanding of the causes underlying the necessity of two breadwinners.

It is a complicated issue and I will not provide a primer for you, but going back to the depression and world war two, the very nature of society was forced to change by the 'emergency' situations of depression and war.

Government tax collectors were very happy to collect income taxes from women working in war plants during war time. Unions, in and out of government brought pressure and even strikes to increase wages, including the steel workers during the Truman administration, if memory serves.

The feminist movement is part of the equation also, and sociologists are still offering explanations as to why women chose to forego marriage and a family and enter the workplace in competition with their male counterparts.

The tax collectors are quite happy to collect taxes from both husband and wife, but will cut them a deal with a joint filing, of course, to pacify those who complained of higher taxes and bigger government.

In my span of years, anecdotal declarations that most women I met would rather not work full time and would much prefer to return to a more relaxed time of keeping house and raising children. There are those on this very forum that have attested likewise.

Because the United States became a 'superpower' following world war two and acted aggressively to bring democratic forms of government to over a hundred nations since that time, the free market economy has blossomed into a global economy, raising the living standards of all, including Americans.

The, "Tofflers". Alvin and Heidi, authors of, "Future Shock", and "Creating a new Civiliation", classified the transition from agricultural to industrial, as economic, 'waves', and made some interesting predictions about what a future economic society would look like.

Alaskabibear claims omniscience in terms of 'knowing' what society needs to complete the transition, I make no such claims except to state, repeatedly, that human individual freedom must be nurtured if there is to be a 'third wave society', at all.

I do see, in the questions I raised on this thread and many others, a conflict between the individual and the collective as this new era begins to take hold.

I would like to see society move towards a future that allows the nuclear family to survive so that families continue to exist and thrive to nourish and sustain children on an individual family basis rather than a hodgepodge of educational nannies, daycare facilities and after school babysitters.

The best indications I have read is a trend towards, 'cottage industries', wherein most people, utilizing computers and high speed internet services, work and learn from home. This will necessitate the end of, 'brick and mortar', universities that are even now being replaced by online courses and degrees awarded.

Education is of course essential to this renaissance in family life, but it need not be the indoctrination style education that public schools and higher education offer today.

My objection to present policy, in addition to the decreasing standards of education at all levels, is the general plan to 'equalize' society by limiting the skills of the best to make room for those who possess only average intelligence and abilities.

Even warfare will change, the new fighter, the F-35, all purpose aircraft is said to be the last 'manned' aircraft that will ever be built. If you notice the excerpts from auto manufacturers clips on television, you will note that the industry is almost fully automated with robotic machinery doing the heavy work.

Perhaps you join alaska...in knowing what the future holds, trying to bring back the industrial era, where manufacturing jobs are available to unskilled labor and all the little worker bees are just ecstatic with free day care, free education, free medical care...somehow...I think the Soviets tried all that and it failed miserably.

I maintain there is a better way into the future than socialism.

Amicus...

 

[CeriseNoire]

Amicus, I have two questions for you. First, how will you know who is completing the online course? I know that just in the last coule years, I've been asked by several peole if I'd complete all or part of their online courses for a payment.

Secondly, why are you so convinced women's education destroys family? I've seen so may women who married because it was their only option find out in their 50s and later that they in fact hate that guy they'be been with for the last few decades. And before you discount me by saying I must be a product of a non-nuclear, destroyed by feminism, family, not only have my parents been married for 29 years, they actually still like each other.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

When I was a larval psychologist the Federal Government had a vocational assessment test called the GATB General Aptitude Test Battery. It was great.

It included an intelligence test, plus several tests to measure perceptual and motor and mental abilities.

After you took all the tests, your scores were dumped into a computer, and you got a list of jobs you'd be perfect for.

The only problem was: Some folks just aint got the right stuff for anything more than janitor work or rolling cigars. So lotsa folks who had plenty of gold stars and Special Olympics Diplomas were stunned and upset when GATB told them what it is.

 

[amicus]

CeriseNoire
Sweet 'n Tangy

~~~

Your first point is an excellent one that I have experienced myself...without going into specifics, as I would be crucified, but yes, you point out a potential or existing problem with online education and degrees.

But, technology will out, in my opinion, the kind of security my bank insists on could be employed elsewhere as well.

Cerise, my dear, I am not a misogynist, nor do I think women are inferior to men, although I do know for certain that each sex has natural advantages in some areas.

And I, like most, have not a clue as to what the future holds for male/female relationships, child bearing or family evolvement.

I have no idea of how much or how little of what I post that you read, so I don't really know where to begin but I do hate to be repetitive when not necessary.

I see human nature as being heterosexual, of course, with all our innate and inherent 'drives' functioning with but one goal in mind, procreation and continuation of the species.

We appear to be, the very first sentient creature that can question his own nature and we surely do that.

If one cannot, or chooses not to, reproduce and perform all the corollary duties of nurturing to provide a beneficial environment for offspring, then it is an open question as to what avenue towards individual satisfaction one might follow.

I offer that the weight is heavily tilted toward the female as her years of fertility, the ability to bear children, is finite, and, I think, must be taken into consideration.

There are also those, who are not true sociopaths, but who prefer to exist essentially without other intimate human contact. Personally, being alone for varying periods of time, has been very productive for me, but I always return to the, ahm, breast, so to speak.

There is so much...I hope you will add your thoughts...and I close with this one...I truly hope that future humans are not subjected to a world of total control, where society determines how the individual will live his/her life.

Xssve, a very intelligent person, has a 'cost/benefit' system of ethics and morality that I would hate to think may be applied to future generations.

I am reminded of an old sci fi film, "Logan's Run", that exemplifies a totally controlled future that efficiently disposes of individual humans to maintain a fabricated and controlled existence.

I should have closed when I said I was going to, but I want to add that I think our, mankind's ideas and ideologies, will determine the future, with an E.L.E. Asteroid notwithstanding...perhaps that is my inspiration to continue fighting the good fight for the individual versus the collective on this forum.

regards...

amicus...

 

[alaskabibear]

This turned out to be, thus far anyway, a much more productive area of concern than expected; somewhat renews my faith (ahem) in the forum at large.

~~~

alaskabibear...

First part of your presentation was interesting, last part is heavily colored by your dislike of our economic system and a complete misunderstanding as to why two breadwinners are required to support a family. And, so I don't forget, nothing offered served as a refutation that educational standards have been lowered to accommodate women and minorities.

The bolded words above are 'buzz words', so to speak; they also imply a lack of understanding of the causes underlying the necessity of two breadwinners.

I fear that by going "off topic" into the condition of mankind, I did dilute my intended point.

Let me add just a bit more on that;

Some background:
The basis of my thoughts was the fairly well know theory of the "four traits of human personality". In brief summary this theory runs through many different cultures and dates back to at least Hippocrates. At it's most basic the theory identifies the four as; Choleric, Melancholy, Phlegmatic, Sanguine (I have linked a short reference below for any wanting a bit more detail - note, this is just one link I found and chose it for it's brevity).
http://elementaltruths.com/an-overview-of-temperaments/

These basic four traits have been expanded upon by many over the years to "fill in" and account for the true complexity of humans. One such extrapolation of the traits touches upon the fact that humans tend to segregate into four general vocational groups. These have been described as; Warrior, Intellectual, Laborer, Acquirer. Again, I doubt if anyone ever falls into just one of the traits, we are all somewhat of a blend I think. But in general, one of the traits is predominant and is the primary driver of our personality. Some of these traits can be seen in the type of work/lifestyles people chose to pursue, such as; Warrior/soldier, sports, gamer, hunter, etc - Intellectual/ teacher, theologian, researcher, inventor, etc - Laborer/ farmer, craftsman, homesteader, skilled tradesman, factory work, etc - Acquirer/ merchant, entrepreneur, investor, etc.

Obviously these two paragraphs cannot and do not intend to fully lay out or prove these theories. But I think this is sufficient to understand what I was basing my thoughts on.

So, back to the topic; It was my thought that the "dumming down" of our schools has more to do with these personality traits than it does gender or ethnicity. The point being that many people in the Laborer and Warrior groups are finding that the economics of modern societies are forcing them into work which; 1) requires advanced education and 2) is the type of work that is inherently counter to that which they are ideally suited. Thus, when people are "forced" by circumstances beyond their control to pursue advanced education for reasons other than their own inborn desire, the inner drive to succeed at that task is lacking. As a result they do not excel at it.

But, and here's the quandary, in the modern American economy there are fewer and fewer places for the majority of the Laborer and Warrior class to work. I don't blame the individuals caught up in this for going to school and trying whatever they can to fit into the society that fate has placed them. Nor do I have a lofty ideology that one or another economic or political theory will solve the problem. In fact, they are just as much a victim of life as you, Ami, as you sometimes long for the "better days" just after WW2 and the apparent simplicity of that time. So, that is why I disagree with the your position that our schools are losing ground because they are lowering standards to accommodate women and minorities. It may be that time may show the lowering of standards was more for displaced men.

I could expand this to discuss how these displaced 'warriors' and 'laborers' are a real danger to our societies (think of the Middle East, Afghanistan, or the modern urban ghetto)...but I'll hold off on that so as not to go off topic again. Good discussion you started...

 

[DesertPirate]

Depends on the kid, and the parents. You certainly can't lay the blame all on the education system.

I have one kid with her master's (a minority, and a woman), one kid in college already (a minority), and one well on his way.

If they haven't gotten a good education, it would be more my fault than anyone else's.

Youngest daughter is a junior at Wake Forrest which only accepted 17% of the applicants that year. Majoring in Anthropology/Archeaology, deans list every year.
The other 2 didn't want to go to college, though they are starting to change their minds.

 

[JAMESBJOHNSON]

In reality, something like 2% of practitioners make big bucks and have all the fame. Generally speaking, 10% of all practitioners make a living from what theyre trained to do. The GATB was normed on the top 10%, and if you fit the profile you have the right stuff to be a butcher or baker or candle maker. And God doesnt give a fuck about how he distributes the right stuff.

You wont find a world class black swimmer anywhere. They dont exist. God likes black sprinters and basketball players.

There's an evolutionary theory that asserts God doesnt like anyone who lives between the Tropics of Cancer & Capricorn. Much of the Third World is contained within this belt.

BUTT PIRATE

It aint likely that your daughter will be an archaeologist. She has a better shot at signing with the NFL. No doubt she's smart enough, but in the end she'll flip burgers with her freshly minted PhD in archaeology. Been there, done that.

 

[sr71plt]

Been there, done that.

Filpping burgers? Somehow that is how I picture you.