downtown blues

[Senna Jawa]

--

downtown blues

behind the fence
the nice girl on the third floor
opens the window
she practices violin
her daddy pays for the lessons

the rich pretty girl never hears me
singing late at night
when nobody tells me to move
​

wh,
2007-12-02

 

[wildsweetone]

--

downtown blues

behind the fence
the nice girl on the third floor
opens the window
she practices violin
her daddy pays for the lessons

the rich pretty girl never hears me
singing late at night
when nobody tells me to move
​

wh,
2007-12-02

who, or what, is the lyrical subject? i have an idea but i am willing to bet it is different to your intent.

is there any reason you did not indent the last line in the first stanza?

thank you again, Senna, for making me think.

 

[Senna Jawa]

who, or what, is the lyrical subject? i have an idea but i am willing to bet it is different to your intent.

I don't write poems with a single intent/interpretation in my mind--that would be naive. On the other hand the fact that this is blues and the two-part contrast make for a strong suggestion.

is there any reason you did not indent the last line in the first stanza?

I don't feel any need to have any. On the contrary, the indentation would be an eyesore here, and in your face, it would not buy anything.

thank you again, Senna, for making me think.

Any time, be my guest. This poem relates to the classical Basho haiku. A poem does not have to be haiku to do so. This poem also illustrates Angeline question (from "The poetry way" thread). It does and does not give an answer. (Many of my poems relate, in a general sense--not literally, both to Basho haiku and to Angeline question). The Angeline question about short and long poems was simple but it invokes quite subtle considerations. I have an answer but the answer is not simple.

Best regards,

 

[Angeline]

--

downtown blues

behind the fence
the nice girl on the third floor
opens the window
she practices violin
her daddy pays for the lessons

the rich pretty girl never hears me
singing late at night
when nobody tells me to move
​

wh,
2007-12-02

It is an interesting poem totally aside from it being longer than haiku (or three lines to avoid the whole business of what is really a haiku and the 5-7-5 thing).

It is concrete, and there is more happening in what is implied than what is actually said. It's nicely open to interpretation. There might be two girls or one nice, pretty and rich girl. It might be a story about a girl who plays the violin without realizing someone sings near her window, maybe to her. Nobody tells me to move could be about the girl, someone at another window, etc. Or there could be two girls: one who is nice and plays the violin, and one who is ignorant of the singing man.

I could go on and I'm not being facetious. It's good to have many images and ambiguity as to meaning. And it's not ambiguity that comes from confusing or vague language. It's just open for interpretation. It's one thing to twist words in clever ways without saying much and quite another to say something with many possible meanings.

It's still quite short, eight lines. How long is the average poem? Longer, I'm sure. Is that good or bad? Can there be poems of four or five strophes that go on this way and keep a reader engaged? And keep the possible interpretations open? Longer poems inevitably, at least to me, head into personification and anthropomorphism, and words that suggest ideas, not just images. Where is the balance between good, poetic writing and writing that becomes clever but not substantive?

That's where the line of questioning leads me.

 

[Angeline]

And here is a word that I love that I think is relevent:

Main Entry: meta·cog·ni·tion
Pronunciation: \-käg-ˈni-shən\
Function: noun
Date: 1977
: awareness or analysis of one's own learning or thinking processes

That's a Merriam-Webster definition.

I love the word because I think about it a lot. There's a lot of metacognition in poetry, self-awareness that is dangerously close to telling what the poet thinks. I mean saying it outright instead of implying it with images. There's definitely metacognition in much of my poetry and I work hard to keep it to a minimum now. But sometimes I think I should embrace it.

When I have too much metacognition I cook or take a nap.

 

[Tzara]

--

downtown blues

behind the fence
the nice girl on the third floor
opens the window
she practices violin
her daddy pays for the lessons

the rich pretty girl never hears me
singing late at night
when nobody tells me to move
​

wh,
2007-12-02

Idle comment, here, SJ. Whack me if you'd like.

L5: delete "her"; it adds nothing. "Daddy" implies the relationship.

L6: Change "the" to "this" (or, perhaps, "that"), to focus the reference. The poem is about a particular girl, however unspecified she may be in the poem.

More generic: You haven't established blues. I certainly don't associate violin with blues. Don't mean it ain't associated, but you haven't, I think, made that association. I know the blues are the Narrator's, but still, don't work for me.

But as you know, I am poemic clonkmeister.

Clonk.

Clonk. ​

 

[Senna Jawa]

L5: delete "her"; it adds nothing. "Daddy" implies the relationship.​

1. It is the lyrical subject speaking, and not a logic machine. Thus "her" in "her daddy" is crucial.
   
2. Since it is the lyrical subject speaking, the first meaning of "daddy pays" would be "my daddy pays...", instead of "her daddy pays...". Yes, you may claim that the logic machine would overcome the default English interpretation, and would tilt toward the second interpretation, based on the context. But the poem would be so damaged that it would hardly survive. Poetry is more than pure logic, it is also the art of words, and more.

L6: Change "the" to "this" (or, perhaps, "that"), to focus the reference. The poem is about a particular girl, however unspecified she may be in the poem.​

May be I will. I'll ask around and get "second opinions". (Descriptions "nice girl", followed by "pretty girl", plus context of wealth, strongly suggest that it is the same girl; but I will ask around).

More generic: You haven't established blues. I certainly don't associate violin with blues. Don't mean it ain't associated, but you haven't, I think, made that association. I know the blues are the Narrator's, but still, don't work for me.

(The objection about the violin is so nonsensical that I will not bother to address it). It is sad that you face a poem and voice such a trivial concern. The role of the title is not to be a label but an integral part of the poem, it should contribute to the poetic effect of the poem just like any other element of the poem. And that's what my title does very well.

The poem is pure in that it stays away from the routine blues jargon of expressions like "my broken guitar", "my dirty clothes", "poor ol' me", "my little baby" (about a woman), etc etc. A sensitive reader will appreciate it. Nevertheless my poem is blues or its close relative:

First there is the fence which separates the two worlds: the rich, powerful people and the poor people which can be pushed around. The Narrator talks about "rich girl". Objectively, for all we know, this girl on the third floor belongs to the middle class, but to the Narrator she is rich, which indicates that the Narrator is poor and that he (let me consider the "he" version) sees himself as poor. This is enhanced by the title: downtown blues. The Narrator considers his fate and his life and his song to be "blues", which once again tells us that he is poor. This very poem is his song, his blues.

Observe that the fence acts like the surface of the Basho's old pond, it separates the worlds. Both the frog and we, the humans, are Nature's children, we have a strong bond. But the frog is in a different world for which we don't care, about which we know nothing. The same in my poem: the girl and the beggar are both humans, they have a strong bond--music, by they belong to different worlds, without virtually any contact between the two.

I really don't care if my poem is not blues to you.

 

[LeBroz]

.
.

For what it's worth, here's my 2¢.

Of course it's blues, with our young hero looking on with longing at that which is beyond his reach. He sees that soft, gentle world of the girl while he's living in a harsh, gritty reality.

Behind the fence seems to suggest being hidden, yet there she is, on display (more on that later) for all the world to see. I'd suggest Beyond the fence as it seems to connote a greater distance, a greater gulf separating the two worlds.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, you could have her playing the harpsichord, which makes her world of privilege seem even further removed, especially since he'd only hear her, but, since she's on the third floor, he'd not see her playing. It would be too obvious a distinction. With the violin and the act of opening the window, I get the image of her sitting on the windowsill, practicing her violin, oblivious to the world outside (especially beyond the fence).

As for the question of "her daddy," I think omitting "her" would work but for different reasons then taken by Tzara. As written, it's as though our young blues singer is identifying with the warm world she occupies. He's seeing the world through her eyes. Starting that line with just "daddy," depersonalizes the familial relationship, which I think would be more in keeping with the gritty world he occupies, almost as though he's feeling that daddy is keeping her away from him, further enlarging the gulf. It puts an edge to the final line, as the poem transitions from her world of privilege to his more gritty reality.

Like I said, just my 2¢ worth. A nice exercise in thinking.

.
.

 

[Angeline]

.
.

For what it's worth, here's my 2¢.

Of course it's blues, with our young hero looking on with longing at that which is beyond his reach. He sees that soft, gentle world of the girl while he's living in a harsh, gritty reality.

Behind the fence seems to suggest being hidden, yet there she is, on display (more on that later) for all the world to see. I'd suggest Beyond the fence as it seems to connote a greater distance, a greater gulf separating the two worlds.

Playing devil's advocate for a moment, you could have her playing the harpsichord, which makes her world of privilege seem even further removed, especially since he'd only hear her, but, since she's on the third floor, he'd not see her playing. It would be too obvious a distinction. With the violin and the act of opening the window, I get the image of her sitting on the windowsill, practicing her violin, oblivious to the world outside (especially beyond the fence).

As for the question of "her daddy," I think omitting "her" would work but for different reasons then taken by Tzara. As written, it's as though our young blues singer is identifying with the warm world she occupies. He's seeing the world through her eyes. Starting that line with just "daddy," depersonalizes the familial relationship, which I think would be more in keeping with the gritty world he occupies, almost as though he's feeling that daddy is keeping her away from him, further enlarging the gulf. It puts an edge to the final line, as the poem transitions from her world of privilege to his more gritty reality.

Like I said, just my 2¢ worth. A nice exercise in thinking.

.
.

"Daddy" might not even be her father. He might be a sugar daddy. That would be very "blues," althought I'm guessing SJ isn't necessarily going for any standard "blues" terminology, like he said about "violin." But I like that it's all potential, it's all implied.

It does have a blues rhythm though. You could sing that poem in a blues rhythm if you wanted.

I still don't understand why "her" is crucial, but I know SJ does everything for a reason in his poems.

 

[The_Fool]

I think the poem offers a contrast in the Haves and the Have-Nots. I agree with SJ, I think "her daddy" is the better fit, but for a different reason than I have seen offered. If the emphasis is on HER instead of daddy, it becomes almost an accusation of the narrator's father not providing the same. That is just one way to read it, but having kids, I can hear it spoken that way.

 

[Senna Jawa]

.
.

[...] it's as though our young blues singer is identifying with the warm world she occupies. He's seeing the world through her eyes. [...]
.
.

Except that "her daddy" might be pronounced with a bitter sarcasm. I would think that the default is that it is said in a detached way.

Let me, without multiplying posts too much, mention that I like Angeline's association "sugar daddy" (as a possibility). I avoided (in this particular poem) the typical blues phrases but not the blues notions, they are induced.

It is possible to write longer variations of this poem which would narrow--each in its own way--the meaning of the poem, and images. The variations would be richer in images and even more concrete than the poem is now. In particular, one would have a scene or several scenes in which the Narrator is prevented from singing. As it is now, there is perhaps one main and cruel interpretation but I also left a possibility open that he didn't sing well (or that his music was too original).

You, guys , may feel that Tzara's suggestion about removing "her" in "her daddy" is good, while to me the division of the worlds is crucial. Without "her" one could assume that Narrator and the girl from the 3rd floor are (half-)siblings. That would mess up the poems simplicity, which is its strength (sure, one may write a different poem about siblings).

Thank you LEBroz, and everybody, for the comments,

 

[Angeline]

Except that "her daddy" might be pronounced with a bitter sarcasm. I would think that the default is that it is said in a detached way.

Let me, without multiplying posts too much, mention that I like Angeline's association "sugar daddy" (as a possibility). I avoided (in this particular poem) the typical blues phrases but not the blues notions, they are induced.

It is possible to write longer variations of this poem which would narrow--each in its own way--the meaning of the poem, and images. The variations would be richer in images and even more concrete than the poem is now. In particular, one would have a scene or several scenes in which the Narrator is prevented from singing. As it is now, there is perhaps one main and cruel interpretation but I also left a possibility open that he didn't sing well (or that his music was too original).

You, guys , may feel that Tzara's suggestion about removing "her" in "her daddy" is good, while to me the division of the worlds is crucial. Without "her" one could assume that Narrator and the girl from the 3rd floor are (half-)siblings. That would mess up the poems simplicity, which is its strength (sure, one may write a different poem about siblings).

Thank you LEBroz, and everybody, for the comments,

Okay. That makes perfect sense to me.

 

[Tzara]

I really don't care if my poem is not blues to you.

Ha ha! Good for you. Why should you?

I wish more people would treat comments this way. They're just someone's reaction. They may be useful, or not. If they are useful, use them. If not, not.

Anyway, thanks for honoring what you consider a stupid comment with an explanation.

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] what you consider a stupid comment [...].

Please, stick to the poem (leave the author alone).

 

[Tzara]

Please, stick to the poem (leave the author alone).

Oh, pardon me. How about this rephrasing: Thanks for honoring my comment with an explanation.

That's pretty neutral, isn't it?

 

[Senna Jawa]

Oh, pardon me. How about this rephrasing: Thanks for honoring my comment with an explanation.

That's pretty neutral, isn't it?

Tzara, thank you for your comment, suggestions, discussion. It made me check my English and to ask people about those small pests--pronouns and articles (asking is a slow process since it is not easy for me to grab electronically or by phone someone's button and keep her/him to pose my question and to get their answer).

(I have reacted allergically to your previous concluding phrasing because in the past people were putting in my mouth statements which I didn't make but which gave them a basis for further mileage).

Best regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

.
.
Behind the fence seems to suggest being hidden, yet there she is, on display (...) for all the world to see. I'd suggest Beyond the fence as it seems to connote a greater distance, a greater gulf separating the two worlds.

I feel that "behind" relates to the building. And when a building is behind a fence then it is understood that (most of the time) only the first floor or the first two floors are obstructed by the fence while the third floor windows will be seen. (Also, not all fences are solid).

Word "beyond" feels too heavy to me, too serious (too intellectual). Let's remember who is the Narrator. "Beyond" does not belong to his narrative voice.

Also, I don't want to spell for the reader that thingy about the "gulf". "Behind" sounds concrete, down to Earth, material-physical, while "beyond" sounds abstract.

Regards,

 

[Senna Jawa]

"the" or "this"?

The narrator talks about one rich girl only, and has no intention of comparing her with other rich girls. I am afraid that the modified line (Tzara's suggestion):

this rich pretty girl never hears me
​

would imply somehow that other rich girls do hear the narrator singing. As it is now,

the rich pretty girl never hears me
​

I hope that it is obvious that the same girl from the first strophe is talked about here, while no suggestion is made about any other girl.

But, as you know, English is not my first language.

Regards,

 

[twelveoone]

are you expecting someone to tell you to move?
or is it that you feel you are not worth the effort for someone to even tell you to move?
why is the nobody there?
a compound negative, or a subliminal implant?

and then again if someone says the blues it just might create an expectation, that we get the blues, no?

anyway I liked the Marxist interpt of the have and have nots, and your response of the cares and care nots.

Ah, poetry, such a grand, grand mess of things, eh?

Seriously, Senna, have you tried other voices? Maybe three or four at once, with colours coming out of your head?

Gofer it.

One voice, and you expect your audience to stand your shoes while you are either caterwaulin or frog ploppin, that is maybe one way, and it is not going to work all the time.

It's a friggen ride, make it interesting.