Don't make me talk potty and poetry

[WickedEve]

My review today -- and most days -- should be flushed. Yes, instead of giving a review of a poem, I think I reviewed bathrooms. We all know if we like a poem or not, but how many of us can tell why we like it? Can you be specific? Can you tell me why a poem works for you? No one wants to read "I love it" or "It sucks." And this isn't just for reviews. I know poets want good, constructive feedback via email or in their public comments section.

So teach me and others how to give great reviews. What tips do you have for us?

 

[GuiltyPleasure]

My review today -- and most days -- should be flushed. Yes, instead of giving a review of a poem, I think I reviewed bathrooms. We all know if we like a poem or not, but how many of us can tell why we like it? Can you be specific? Can you tell me why a poem works for you? No one wants to read "I love it" or "It sucks." And this isn't just for reviews. I know poets want good, constructive feedback via email or in their public comments section.

So teach me and others how to give great reviews. What tips do you have for us?

There's a rumour going round that it ain't necessary to review just to recommend, that's all I ever did.

bfladsst always has constructive things to say in the comments he leaves. Not that I expect that, any comment's welcome just so I know someone read my crap.

 

[WickedEve]

Well, if no one is expecting really great reviews, then I'll continue with my recommendations that are fueled by great quantities of coffee and pee pee urgency.

 

[wildsweetone]

if one takes the time to critique a poem, and gives an interesting enough review, then it's worthy of my time to read and learn from the poem and the critique.

that's the key, taking the time to read and even re-read a poem that you like or hate. looking at every single word and seeing if it fits right (kind of like tight jeans, all snug and only just a little stretched in the right places - enough to pique the curiosity).

if you like or loathe a phrase, say why. is it a cliche? is it utterly unique and something you'd never thought of before? did i just read a word that's not in the dictionary? or is it really there but i never heard of it before?

does it paint a picture, or several pictures? does it paint precisely the image i need to see to make the words fit snugly.

does it give me unwritten meanings, unwritten images, any more depth than simply the facade of words on the face of the screen?

choose things that you like about the poem, search hard for the reasons you like them... maybe the alliteration captures your interest, the assonance. say it out loud, are the sounds soothing, or jarring? do those sounds fit the message of the poem?

each reviewer is different. each has their own worth and is unique. if all reviewers used the same critique pattern, it would be boring. review in whatever way is most comfortable for you.

 

[bogusagain]

We all know if we like a poem or not, but how many of us can tell why we like it? Can you be specific? Can you tell me why a poem works for you?

A poem doesn't necessarily have to work for me if the poet is pushing the boundary with their language. I love poetry that is trying to do something different and can forgive someone for trying but failing.

Well crafted poetry, for me at least, is always enjoyable but rarely exciting because it rarely surprises as the poet is usually within their comfort zone or at least, appears to. It's like wanting a woman with an extra kink to the normal.

I suppose a poem has to quickly conjure up and image for me, like anonomouse's Pablo Neruda . I've been there. Which reminds me, a poem about women's knickers and the lust and longing it conjures up is almost always more exciting than a poem about an impossible multiple orgasming virgin whore who consumes penises like I consume beer.

I can see all the flaws in my reply and could give a whole list of provisos.

 

[Senna Jawa]

A poem doesn't necessarily have to work for me if the poet is pushing the boundary with their language.

Which boundary? There are several, in different directions. One of them, which I like immensely, is beautiful, natural, simple and unassuming language. If this does not work for you then it's your loss.

I love poetry that is trying to do something different and can forgive someone for trying but failing.

Well crafted poetry, for me at least, is always enjoyable but rarely exciting

Authors of well crafted poems have as a rule richer vocabulary, higher IQ, are more talented, have something original to say. The poorly crafted poems are almost invariably totally boring, void of any interesting moment, of any spark.

because it rarely surprises as the poet is usually within their comfort zone or at least, appears to.

That's pure speculation with no foundation. What can we know about the "comfort zone" of different authors? And first of all--it is absolutely irrelevant. It's the poem that counts, not any author's zone.

During the early stage of Internet good was good, bad was bad, there was a healthy respect for poetic talent, knowledge, skills. These days black is white, white is black, and poetic craft is supposedly detrimental to the poem

 

[bogusagain]

Which boundary? There are several, in different directions. One of them, which I like immensely, is beautiful, natural, simple and unassuming language. If this does not work for you then it's your loss.

There's a lot of that work about, I have book shelves full of the stuff. It's just good to see someone trying to produce something new and exciting. Though perhaps I have my attitude because I'm a visual artist and the visual arts has been through this fight, of breaking down the barriers of stuffy academic niceities. There is a reason for a steep decline in poetry as an art since the end of the 19th century and that is, I suspect, is because it is not relevent anymore to most people's lives. Like Adrian Mitchell said, 'Most people don't like most poetry because most poetry doesn't like most people.'

Authors of well crafted poems have as a rule richer vocabulary, higher IQ, are more talented, have something original to say. The poorly crafted poems are almost invariably totally boring, void of any interesting moment, of any spark.

As you said in your folowing reply, that's pure speculation. As for IQ as a measurement of intelligence, that has long since been discredited. It is a measurement of a specific learnt ability of academic culture and bears no recognition to someone's creative ability or intelligence. It is culturally specific. If a person trains hard enough to pass exams and IQ is an exam of sorts, you will pass with high grades but all it indicates is that you have past the test at a particular grade.

That's pure speculation with no foundation. What can we know about the "comfort zone" of different authors? And first of all--it is absolutely irrelevant. It's the poem that counts, not any author's zone.

Of course its speculation but once someone has written so much of similar work, I think it is reasonable to assume they are in their comfort zone.

During the early stage of Internet good was good, bad was bad, there was a healthy respect for poetic talent, knowledge, skills. These days black is white, white is black, and poetic craft is supposedly detrimental to the poem

There is nothing wrong with respecting poetic knowledge and skills, one needs both to go beyond poetry being pure craft and elevating poetry into an art form. Poetry knowledge and skills used to be de rigor for all educated young men but it never produced on average, a higher number of good poets.

 

[bogusagain]

Senna, I can't speak about America but in Britain in the 60s when the Mersey poets and other pop poets were active, their books sold in tens of thousands and the sale of poetry books went up across the board. The academics and poetry establishment labeled them as talentless fools. The same occurred in the seventies with punk poetry which also increased poetry across the board. Again the poetry establishment labeled them as talentless fools. When in both cases the popular poets stopped being active, poetry book sales dropped across the board. Despite the evidence, the poetry establishment and the academics couldn't raise themselves above their fit of peak and jealousy and admit that there is a hunger for poetry out there if someone was writing poetry that people found relevent to them. There is more than one way to write poetry, it's an art form and there should be no rules or boundaries. Each work needs to find its own internal logic, that should be enough for people who are interested to get an angle on a work.

As one arts commentar noted on BBC radio, the smaller the poetry world gets, the more bitchier it gets as those that are left on poetry island fight over the bones of a dead carcass. There neededn't have been a dead carcass in the first place and who knows, maybe it could be revived if some enterprising poets put their audience before the false god of their own poetic integrity.

 

[WickedEve]

Well crafted poetry, for me at least, is always enjoyable but rarely exciting because it rarely surprises as the poet is usually within their comfort zone or at least, appears to. It's like wanting a woman with an extra kink to the normal.

Just yesterday I was reading a very talented poet who had posted some poems on the forum. He does write well crafted poems. I was impressed. I enjoyed the poetry. But I was bored. I almost PMed the poet about it -- not to be rude, of course. I guess I wanted to tell him to stir things up a bit. Don't be so perfect! Take risks. I do understand where you're coming from bogus. Well crafted poetry, in some ways, is like bad poetry. After awhile it all starts to read the same.

 

[WickedEve]

Just yesterday I was reading a very talented poet who had posted some poems on the forum. He does write well crafted poems. I was impressed. I enjoyed the poetry. But I was bored. I almost PMed the poet about it -- not to be rude, of course. I guess I wanted to tell him to stir things up a bit. Don't be so perfect! Take risks. I do understand where you're coming from bogus. Well crafted poetry, in some ways, is like bad poetry. After awhile it all starts to read the same.

Let me add that I don't want poorly crafted poetry. lol I just don't always want to read poetry that's... standing severely straight and wearing highly polished shoes. I want, on occasion, a poem that's slouching a bit and wearing dusty boots and a bit of stubble, yet looking darn good. Um, maybe I'm describing a man. I guess I want a hunky poem.

 

[annaswirls]

Ooh I like the new thread title! Takes the pressure off. I do think it is good to encourage the newcomers, but is no means an implied requirement.

Hey I have one request of reviewers.... Please please please put a link to the New Poems on your review, that way people can easily go to the poems that were not recommended and take a look at those as well. Most reviewers do this already, and sometimes we all forget (I don't think I posted the link this week!)


okay I gotta pee. and drink coffee. simultaneously.

 

[UnderYourSpell]

One thing I would mention if your going to leave me a comment please also leave a name am sat here wondering who anonymous is who thinks I have done better and worse!

 

[Senna Jawa]

Please please please put a link to the New Poems on your review [...] (I don't think I posted the link this week!)


okay I gotta pee. and drink coffee. simultaneously.

And while you at it, also post that missing link (you may edit your post while drinking coffee, can't you? ).

Just teasing you,

 

[Senna Jawa]

As for IQ

Forget IQ, that was a shortcut. Authors of well crafted poems are (statistically speaking) way more intelligent than authors of the poorly crafted poems.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Just yesterday I was reading a very talented poet who had posted some poems on the forum. He does write well crafted poems. I was impressed. I enjoyed the poetry. But I was bored.

Which indicates that he is not talented after all.

 

[Senna Jawa]

[...] the poetry establishment labeled them [...][...] the poetry establishment and the academics couldn't raise themselves above their fit of peak and jealousy[...]

Here comes revolutionary knight-Bogus again to fight the imperialistic poetry establishment.

Bogus, poems are good or bad independently of the authors membership in academia or electric engineering or...

It's been a few years and it is finally time for me to disappoint you--I have zero to do with the academic poetry and poetry establishment. You may relax from now on. Or find a different label for me, if you have too (yes, I know the blinding strength of your urge).

 

[annaswirls]

edited to delete and add: damn it I already disagree with myself

 

[bogusagain]

Forget IQ, that was a shortcut. Authors of well crafted poems are (statistically speaking) way more intelligent than authors of the poorly crafted poems.

Dickens couldn't write a well crafted poem but he could tell a good story whether you like him or not. Is he less intelligent than a poet because of it?

Craft and art are two different things. Art uses craft as a means to an end. Craft without art is just another skill, like woodwork. There was an English teacher in Britain in the eighties who taught her pupils the craft of poetry, she entered several of her twelve and thirteen year old pupils in a national poetry competition and won national prizes in poetry, their works being read anonymously of course. The poetry establishment were startled at the revelation that so many and such young adolescents could write such well crafted poetry. It doesn't surprise me, I could teach twelve and thirteen year olds the traditional craft of painting and those with an apptitude will learn to paint in a way it appears they have been painting for years. Of course, the art is absent but for those that believe in the traditional craft of painting probably won't notice that because they are all tied up in the craft.

 

[bogusagain]

Here comes revolutionary knight-Bogus again to fight the imperialistic poetry establishment.

Bogus, poems are good or bad independently of the authors membership in academia or electric engineering or...

It's been a few years and it is finally time for me to disappoint you--I have zero to do with the academic poetry and poetry establishment. You may relax from now on. Or find a different label for me, if you have too (yes, I know the blinding strength of your urge).

You just has to look who is in charge of most poetry publishing to know there is an incrowd that a poet has to get past to be published. In Britain its an Oxbridge mafia, I don't know enough about the states to know if it is similar there. It is no surprise that the popular poets I mentioned earlier were not published by the usual poetry publishers but young publishers on a mission or generic publishers with a finger on the public's pulse.

Just to add, you just have to look at the line ups at International poetry readings and how half empty the halls always are to get the impression poetry seems to have a death wish. The dreariest events anyone could attend usually. The popular poets I mentioned earlier filled concert halls. Their readings were exciting, fresh and innovative. Innovative, a word the wordsmith mafia doesn't seem to undertand.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Dickens couldn't write a well crafted poem but he could tell a good story whether you like him or not. Is he less intelligent than a poet because of it?

In that case he was intelligent enough not to push his poems into the face of the public.

Craft and art are two different things.

No kidding.

Craft without art is just another skill, like woodwork.

And art without craft is an oxymoron, is NOTHING (as art).

 

[Senna Jawa]

There was an English teacher in Britain in the eighties who taught her pupils the craft of poetry, she entered several of her twelve and thirteen year old pupils in a national poetry competition and won national prizes in poetry, their works being read anonymously of course. The poetry establishment were startled at the revelation that so many and such young adolescents could write such well crafted poetry. It doesn't surprise me, I could teach twelve and thirteen year olds the traditional craft of painting and those with an apptitude will learn to paint in a way it appears they have been painting for years. Of course, the art is absent but for those that believe in the traditional craft of painting probably won't notice that because they are all tied up in the craft.

To whom and what for are you giving this puerile story? Blah-blah-blah.

 

[Senna Jawa]

You just has to look who is in charge of most poetry publishing [...]

I don't care.

 

[bogusagain]

To whom and what for are you giving this puerile story? Blah-blah-blah.

Just pointing out you can train just about anyone in a craft.

 

[bogusagain]

I don't care.

You care enough to answer. But when you say you don't care I suspect it is because they uphold your view of the world.

 

[Senna Jawa]

Just pointing out you can train just about anyone in a craft.

I had this illusion too many years ago. Theoretically--perhaps. In practice--no.