Dom/sub, top/bottom

[Rox_shybutcurious]

In my reading I’ve seen several references to being a top or bottom. Is this different than a Dom or sub?

Thanks,
Rox.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

The difference is the level of commitment. A Dom/sub are usually in a committed relationship, where as a Top/bottom are more for occational "play" sessions. If I remember correctly.

edit to add the following links...

This post gives definitions of Top and bottom... click here

This thread is a dictionary of terms both BDSM and internet... click here

 

[JMohegan]

In my reading I’ve seen several references to being a top or bottom. Is this different than a Dom or sub?

Thanks,
Rox.

To me, the difference is power exchange.

The Top is the one who is paddling. The bottom is the one getting paddled. But the bottom could always say: faster, slower, not now, pick another size, do that again, etc.

In contrast, a Dom controls the behavior of a sub in one or more aspects of their relationship.

That's my personal understanding of the lingo.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

The difference is the level of commitment. A Dom/sub are usually in a committed relationship, where as a Top/bottom are more for occational "play" sessions. If I remember correctly.

edit to add the following links...

This post gives definitions of Top and bottom... click here

This thread is a dictionary of terms both BDSM and internet... click here

Thanks Dixicritter, I did a search, but didn't come up with these. I appreciate you looking and posting them. I'll check them out.

Rox.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

To me, the difference is power exchange.

The Top is the one who is paddling. The bottom is the one getting paddled. But the bottom could always say: faster, slower, not now, pick another size, do that again, etc.

In contrast, a Dom controls the behavior of a sub in one or more aspects of their relationship.

That's my personal understanding of the lingo.

Then would an individual that was reluctant to give up control outside of the bedroom be considered more of a bottom than a sub?

Thanks,
Rox.

 

[JMohegan]

Then would an individual that was reluctant to give up control outside of the bedroom be considered more of a bottom than a sub?

I'm glad you asked that question, because I obviously wasn't clear with what I was trying to say.

Imagine two couples, each married for five years and each fond of SM play. Neither is interested in D/s outside the bedroom.


Couple 1: Joe and Jane engage in SM play whenever they both agree on the time, place, toy selection, etc.

Joe likes to paddle, and Jane likes to be paddled. But she reserves the right to say: Not tonight honey, I have a headache. Or: No, I'm sick of that paddle with the holes in it. Please use the new one tonight.

Per my use of the terms, I would say that Joe is a Top and Jane is a bottom.


Couple 2: Tim and Tina engage in SM play whenever Tim wants to. He picks the time, place, toy, duration, etc.

Tina has agreed to cede control over the when, where, and how of their physical activity, subject only to: (a) previously agreed upon limits such as: no scat play, breath play, etc., and (b) the understanding that all activity of any kind will cease immediately if Tina calls out her safeword.

Per my use of the terms, I would say that Tim is a Dom and Tina is a sub.

 

[neonflux]

A friend of mine puts it this way (have also read this elsewhere):

A bottom gives his body, a sub gives her mind, a slave gives his soul. Would assume that the opposite could be said for a Top, Dom, and Mistress...

I do see Topping/bottoming as a purely physical thing.

However, I am not sure that D/s cannot happen within the context of a primarily sexual exchange. My kink partner and I both switch within the context of D/s. It will often begin as a type of foreplay and preparation the morning (or earlier) preceeding a planned session. For instance, I have ordered him to shave his pubic hair or find and buy me a particular toy, or to wear a cockring at work the day before we have a meeting where I am going to Top. And I expect him to serve me at dinner on such an evening... However, we only do this type of play as a lead-in to a scene, and it doesn't spill over into everyday life - we have a lot of contact, btw, are good friends who live 5 blocks (10 minutes walking distance) from each other - very close by San Francisco standards.

Just my 2¢, not sure how it plays out with others, or if they would still interpret this as Topping rather than being Dominant...

Neon

 

[Shankara20]

A friend of mine puts it this way (have also read this elsewhere):

A bottom gives his body, a sub gives her mind, a slave gives his soul. Would assume that the opposite could be said for a Top, Dom, and Mistress...

I do see Topping/bottoming as a purely physical thing.

However, I am not sure that D/s cannot happen within the context of a primarily sexual exchange. My kink partner and I both switch within the context of D/s. It will often begin as a type of foreplay and preparation the morning (or earlier) preceeding a planned session. For instance, I have ordered him to shave his pubic hair or find and buy me a particular toy, or to wear a cockring at work the day before we have a meeting where I am going to Top. And I expect him to serve me at dinner on such an evening... However, we only do this type of play as a lead-in to a scene, and it doesn't spill over into everyday life - we have a lot of contact, btw, are good friends who live 5 blocks (10 minutes walking distance) from each other - very close by San Francisco standards.

Just my 2¢, not sure how it plays out with others, or if they would still interpret this as Topping rather than being Dominant...

Neon

This is very much the way I see it as well.

As a switch I Top or bottom. I do not Dom/sub or Master/slave.

Well I do "slave" to my two cats, but that is something else...

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

I'm glad you asked that question, because I obviously wasn't clear with what I was trying to say.

Imagine two couples, each married for five years and each fond of SM play. Neither is interested in D/s outside the bedroom.


Couple 1: Joe and Jane engage in SM play whenever they both agree on the time, place, toy selection, etc.

Joe likes to paddle, and Jane likes to be paddled. But she reserves the right to say: Not tonight honey, I have a headache. Or: No, I'm sick of that paddle with the holes in it. Please use the new one tonight.

Per my use of the terms, I would say that Joe is a Top and Jane is a bottom.


Couple 2: Tim and Tina engage in SM play whenever Tim wants to. He picks the time, place, toy, duration, etc.

Tina has agreed to cede control over the when, where, and how of their physical activity, subject only to: (a) previously agreed upon limits such as: no scat play, breath play, etc., and (b) the understanding that all activity of any kind will cease immediately if Tina calls out her safeword.

Per my use of the terms, I would say that Tim is a Dom and Tina is a sub.

Thank you, that explanation did help and staightened a couple things out for me. I guess I'm back to more research.....

Rox.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

This is very much the way I see it as well.

As a switch I Top or bottom. I do not Dom/sub or Master/slave.

Well I do "slave" to my two cats, but that is something else...

Thanks for your input. I'm learning so much from everybody here.

And I totaly understand about the cats. I do some animal rescue and there's always a few dogs and cats running around my place that feel they should come first. LOL

Rox.

 

[JMohegan]

A friend of mine puts it this way (have also read this elsewhere):

A bottom gives his body, a sub gives her mind, a slave gives his soul. Would assume that the opposite could be said for a Top, Dom, and Mistress..

Per this definition, I am a Top. [Which is 100% fine with me, btw, because I only use these terms in a conceptual way. Titles, to me, are meaningless.]

I do control behavior outside the bedroom, but the key word there is *behavior*. I have absolutely no interest in controlling someone's mind.

Do you think this relates to the difference between ceding or accepting control outside the bedroom for the purpose of molding/shaping/teaching the submissive partner, vs. ceding or accepting control simply because that's what makes each partner comfortable and happy? The former being characteristic of a Dom/sub partnership, and the latter being Top/bottom?

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

A friend of mine puts it this way (have also read this elsewhere):

A bottom gives his body, a sub gives her mind, a slave gives his soul. Would assume that the opposite could be said for a Top, Dom, and Mistress...



Neon

Thank you Neon, this sounds like a good rule of thumb and makes for an easily understood analogy. I've found your posts to be helpful in other areas as well and I appreciate you taking the time to respond.

Rox.

 

[Netzach]

The difference is the level of commitment. A Dom/sub are usually in a committed relationship, where as a Top/bottom are more for occational "play" sessions. If I remember correctly.click here

Actually one of the most married couples I know is a Top/bottom flip-a-coin switch couple.

 

[Netzach]

Top/bottom generally refers to "all of the above" in the GLBT leather community. Periodically you'll notice slaves, or boys, or girls, but when people say "Tops" there's more of an understanding that you could be talking about Masters rope tyers weekend warriors Daddies, Mistresses, whatever flavor.

I ID as a Top, but that doesn't mean anyone would ever get to tell me how fast how hard, no slow no more, now stop etc. I do require a certain level of control to be interested.

I get very irate at the "less vested" paintbrush I see the phrase "top/bottom" being painted with in the more hetero BDSM community.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

I ID as a Top, but that doesn't mean anyone would ever get to tell me how fast how hard, no slow no more, now stop etc. I do require a certain level of control to be interested.

Thank you Netzach for responding. Do you then consider Dom/sub and Top/bottom to be basically interchangeable?

Rox.

 

[Daddyslilpet]

Actually one of the most married couples I know is a Top/bottom flip-a-coin switch couple.

Yes I should've edited my comments too after I found the dictionary thread, but I don't like changing what I've said. That's what I get for posting in a hurry.

 

[Netzach]

Rox, not really. More a "all cardinals have red crests, and some birds are cardinals, therefore some birds have red crests" kind of construct, if that makes sense.

All Dominants are Tops (for the sake of designation, I recognize that some Doms *don't* do SM, but if I'm talking about a roomful, they're included) and not all Tops are dominant, some are kinks, spankos, simple "on top fuckers" etc.

 

[Rox_shybutcurious]

All Dominants are Tops (for the sake of designation, I recognize that some Doms *don't* do SM, but if I'm talking about a roomful, they're included) and not all Tops are dominant, some are kinks, spankos, simple "on top fuckers" etc.

It does make sense. Although I'm still trying to realign my thinking from considering all Tops to be dominant and in turn all bottoms, submissive. Kind of like my fist instinct to think of anybody more dominant then me as one type as well. I think it's just my inexperience and hopefully I'm adjusting some of those thought patterns the more time I spend here.

Thanks,
Rox.

 

[JMohegan]

Top/bottom generally refers to "all of the above" in the GLBT leather community. Periodically you'll notice slaves, or boys, or girls, but when people say "Tops" there's more of an understanding that you could be talking about Masters rope tyers weekend warriors Daddies, Mistresses, whatever flavor.

I ID as a Top, but that doesn't mean anyone would ever get to tell me how fast how hard, no slow no more, now stop etc. I do require a certain level of control to be interested.

I get very irate at the "less vested" paintbrush I see the phrase "top/bottom" being painted with in the more hetero BDSM community.

In my part of the world, there are women who get good and freakin' tired of hearing things like: "She's not a sub, she's just a bottom."

And their response is to say: "I am not just a bottom. I am a bottom."

They do not consider themselves to be surrendering power in the D/s sense, and this *to them* is a very important part of their personal identity.

The idea is not that they are bent over directing the Top's every move. The point is that these women negotiate scenes on a session by session basis, whether they are married, dating, or just visiting a local club and playing with an unaffiliated Top.

These bottoms, and their Tops, in no way consider themselves to be "less vested" than subs and Doms. But they do insist on an independent identity, and one that is not only fetish based. Any pissing off of anybody in any other part of the galaxy is completely unintentional. And they sure as hell aren't interested in pissing off or diminishing respect for Tops.

It is true that there are self-satisfied D/s aficionados who say things like, "He's just a Top" or "She's just a bottom", and the clear implication is that Dom and sub are superior in some way. But I have no respect for that bullshit and frankly don't know many people who do.

Taken as a group, the Tops in my part of the world are far more skilled and dedicated to the art of pain play than those who identify as Doms. And the same is true for the bottoms, on the other side of the coin.

The Tops and bottoms are also, generally speaking, far more likely to be friendly, non-judgmental, honest, and straight-forward than Doms and subs, and far less likely to be obnoxious, hypocritical, self-satisfied, over-bearing, or cheating on their wives.

On the basis of skill and character, and speaking in general terms solely about the individuals whom I have met in the physical world, I would say that I have far more respect for Tops and bottoms as a group than I do for Doms and subs.

Your experiences, your definitions may vary.

 

[Netzach]

In my part of the world, there are women who get good and freakin' tired of hearing things like: "She's not a sub, she's just a bottom."

And their response is to say: "I am not just a bottom. I am a bottom."

They do not consider themselves to be surrendering power in the D/s sense, and this *to them* is a very important part of their personal identity.

The idea is not that they are bent over directing the Top's every move. The point is that these women negotiate scenes on a session by session basis, whether they are married, dating, or just visiting a local club and playing with an unaffiliated Top.

These bottoms, and their Tops, in no way consider themselves to be "less vested" than subs and Doms. But they do insist on an independent identity, and one that is not only fetish based. Any pissing off of anybody in any other part of the galaxy is completely unintentional. And they sure as hell aren't interested in pissing off or diminishing respect for Tops.

It is true that there are self-satisfied D/s aficionados who say things like, "He's just a Top" or "She's just a bottom", and the clear implication is that Dom and sub are superior in some way. But I have no respect for that bullshit and frankly don't know many people who do.

Taken as a group, the Tops in my part of the world are far more skilled and dedicated to the art of pain play than those who identify as Doms. And the same is true for the bottoms, on the other side of the coin.

The Tops and bottoms are also, generally speaking, far more likely to be friendly, non-judgmental, honest, and straight-forward than Doms and subs, and far less likely to be obnoxious, hypocritical, self-satisfied, over-bearing, or cheating on their wives.

On the basis of skill and character, and speaking in general terms solely about the individuals whom I have met in the physical world, I would say that I have far more respect for Tops and bottoms as a group than I do for Doms and subs.

Your experiences, your definitions may vary.

This is interesting, and checks in with a lot of things I've noticed. I find that people who ID as T/b whether they do powerplay or not, are very into the physical aspect and proud of their physical skills/accomplishments. I think that's why I'm comfortable saying I'm a top - it's because I'm not necessarily the most advanced player that ever lived, but I've gained what I think is enough physical experience in SM that I feel reasonably competent.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Top/bottom generally refers to "all of the above" in the GLBT leather community. Periodically you'll notice slaves, or boys, or girls, but when people say "Tops" there's more of an understanding that you could be talking about Masters rope tyers weekend warriors Daddies, Mistresses, whatever flavor.

I ID as a Top, but that doesn't mean anyone would ever get to tell me how fast how hard, no slow no more, now stop etc. I do require a certain level of control to be interested.

I get very irate at the "less vested" paintbrush I see the phrase "top/bottom" being painted with in the more hetero BDSM community.

I think this is a good example of why you can't paint with a broad brush. Everybody's definition of themselves, regarding what label they place on themselves, is as different as there are people.

I like to use catalina as an example and I hope she doesn't take that personally but she's authentic. And so is shy. They both accept that they are slaves. I'm not sure that their definition (as exhibited in their current lifestyles) would be exactly the same. I'm sure there are similarities in many ways and differences in others.

This is why those "What's a real Dom/sub" threads are so silly. Everything - everything - is subjective in the end.

How does (fill in the blank) fit in your life? that's the only question to ask, as far as I'm concerned.

 

[FurryFury]

Okay my understanding is perhaps a bit different. I've always thought that if you are engaging in D/s behavior but one of you is not willing to be The Dom/me then he or she is instead, a top. In our case, my husband and I both consider ourselves to be sexually submissive. We are not willing to be a Dom/me but we are willing to try to top each other to bring them pleasure. We are certainly in a serious, committed relationship however. Of course the way we use these terms is only one way, our way and there are others noted by other posters. That doesn't mean that we are right and the way someone else uses the words are wrong, just different, IMO.

*shrugs*

Fury

 

[JMohegan]

Okay my understanding is perhaps a bit different. I've always thought that if you are engaging in D/s behavior but one of you is not willing to be The Dom/me then he or she is instead, a top. In our case, my husband and I both consider ourselves to be sexually submissive. We are not willing to be a Dom/me but we are willing to try to top each other to bring them pleasure. We are certainly in a serious, committed relationship however. Of course the way we use these terms is only one way, our way and there are others noted by other posters. That doesn't mean that we are right and the way someone else uses the words are wrong, just different, IMO.

*shrugs*

Fury

I distinguish between the verb and the noun.

I need power exchange in a relationship, so I identify as a Dom (n.).

Occasionally, however, I need to research a new toy or tool.... in which case I bottom (v.). I do not enjoy bottoming, but I do it anyway because I want to know as much as possible about the new item. This does not make me a bottom or a switch. It just makes me a responsible partner.

 

[FurryFury]

I distinguish between the verb and the noun.

I need power exchange in a relationship, so I identify as a Dom (n.).

Occasionally, however, I need to research a new toy or tool.... in which case I bottom (v.). I do not enjoy bottoming, but I do it anyway because I want to know as much as possible about the new item. This does not make me a bottom or a switch. It just makes me a responsible partner.

Interesting POV. I like someone who is responsible. I applaud that sort of safety and learning.

I'd just rather the responsible person not be me all the time. It isn't me all the time of course. It only feels that way far more often than I prefer.

*nods a lot*

Fury

 

[JMohegan]

I'd just rather the responsible person not be me all the time. It isn't me all the time of course. It only feels that way far more often than I prefer.

I understand. I know a lot of bring-home-the-bacon-fry-it-up-in-the-pan women who feel the same way.