Dom/Dommes opening up about manipulative subs.

[AndrewKay]

How many Doms/Dommes were pulled out of their roles completely by defiance on a task not part of boundary discussions? I do not mean defiance as in, "Spank me, I'm naughty," 'but a real sudden stepping out of the mutual agreement. How was the confusion dealt with? Backing away? Disintegration of the relation as it was understood prior? An out of character apology for pushing too hard, and a subsequent slowing down?

On a related note, how many Dom/Dommes are willing to share how they have failed or have succeeded in dealing with domming from the bottom by subs? (AKA passive aggressive control from the sub-side.) I've been there, as well as some of you I'm sure, where we either were honest (thinking it would be good for a healthy relationship) or we leaked it out, or it was obvious that certain kinds of submissions or certain words said in the context of submission made us get an "awww" or "whoaa" feeling that was picked up by a sub. We are all, afterall, very clever human beings-- so why wouldn't a sub use on occasion a manipulation?

How about that tactic employed by the sub of implicitly threatening the current situation (a threatening of precipitating vanilla) knowing how you might be as pliable as she? How have these things been dealt with successfully or unsuccessfully? For me, I have left a sub, despite her subsequent apologies over such reckless usage of manipulative tactics.

In another case, when I did not have the nerves to play chicken, and was not happy to leave either, I gave an inch to an implied threat, but I did not end up giving a mile-- and after a long honest talk, somewhat out of role, things were restored, but not to it's original state. I either did not deserve her submission, or she did not deserve my domination or both, this were the thoughts that hung over our heads-- the microcrack that combined with other issues tore the relationship apart 8 months down.

My most successful situations have been with more casual partners (maybe because the young ones looking for LTR but also intensity are sometimes a bit crazy). I do not mean to stereotype, but with the ones seeking this idealized D/s long-term relationship, there has always been this need I have picked up on within the sub to raise the bar of intensity. Intensity for intensity's sake. Of course, I have tried logic, being a soothing player, redirecting passion toward realistic and reasonable expectations and goals, etc-- but often times, I will find myself facing intensity as an empty shell at some point. And with an unstable up-and-down rollercoaster girl with all sorts of bits and pieces of ideals and romances seething from her pores, it is impossible to be perfectly in control and being about a firm solid structure all the time. Slowing down with these types for me has been incredibly difficult. One girl I happened to get involved with admitted to discovering recently that she gravitated towards not consensually sadomasochistic relationships, but in truely abusive out of control chaotic ones. Of course I did not give her her wish, and needless to say, her constant antics, and with no way to structure or discipline or even reason the chaos out of her, things fell apart, and I simply had to leave.

With the casual ones that are clear about what turns them on physically-- things have been easy. Comparitively. There have only been two, but I am friends with both still, and I consider them fellow travellers in the exploration of BDSM. There is no need to perform or build up this great building of shining crystal. Things are down to earth-- though the other danger is that physicality can also be addicting, easy, and vacuous. I have never grown so accustomed to more casual sex (not necessarily more promiscuous, but less tied to love and relationship), that I would become apprehensive of love or caring, but I've seen it happen within vanilla 'playboy' friends who would go around with many women who were ok with casual sex and multiple partners-- but in the end my friends were sucked into a deep mistrust of love, and apathy or mistrust towards any approach of women deviating from the mercenary norm. And though they sought genuine love, they would either corrupt things from themselves, or cheat, or leave. For me, the casual partners with benefits have been the ones that have allowed me (and my partner) to explore the most. These have been, at least to me, the most manipulation free experiences.

 

[AndrewKay]

Concisely

My last post is a mishmash of anecdote and ideas and questions. What a mess. This is what happens when you post after 2 days of little sleep.

Here is another mishmash:

What manipulation tactics have us Dom/Dommes faced?
How have they been dealt with (failures are more interesting than success)?
When have we dealt with issues by stepping out of role, or through leaving? (I guess this question is only relevant if you are usually 24/7 'in-role' like I typically am, which only means I am more 'in role' [acting] actually when I am out of D/s behavior).

How about situations where being in-role (spanking, flogging, etc), was used unsuccessfully/successfully for something not typically associated with power-play? Many warn against this and suggest there should be clear boundaries between roleplay and real-life but actually I have worked with subs that want that 'role' (as well as I wanted that 'role') all the time because it is not a role but their natural behavior. Of course I wouldn't bring her to corporate functions "in-role" with my flogger hanging out my back pocket-- but being out of role was more rare than being in role. What is more common? Do people draw sharp lines? Are there some freaks (who would get my respect) who successfully nearly all things out with a frank talk and a flogger? For me what has worked is, if there is resistance, and I do not want to exploit my position, but we do not want to 'step out' if you will I will still be firm and calm, because this is who I tend to be.

I am usually just more attuned, sensitive, listening, and very unlikely to get to spankin if there seems to be a real-world issue of concern.

All of this is a bit misleading, because it is not as if there is a clear abrupt juncture between role play and real life, between so-called fantasy and vanilla. Only in retrospect can I cleanly categorize certain behavior sets, but it is not too different from roles I have to play when I am with the big wigs, as opposed to with the guys on the grill as opposed to when I am dealing with kids. Every day we put on different hats, but it is not considered fantasy-- neither do I then, consider this 'in role' D/S, D/D, or TiH situations fantasy.

 

[daniken]

!

We'll match your two sleepless days against my antibiotics, and see if I'm anywhere near topic, here I'm going to avoid specific points and generalize over the first post.

I would have to say that a lot of this isn't necessarily a D/s issue, but simply a relationship issue.

In a casual relationship, you're in a superficial relationship. You never see below your partner's surface. Likely, the furthest out they're considering is what sort of fun can be had next week. When a problem arises, it's a simple fix! When you break it off, it's more like a pat on the ass, "Good game."

Like your experience, casuals have been some of my the most freeing experiences. Even had a monogamous casual which was incredibly refreshing for a few months. But, they're surface level, and eventually I wanted to spin the LTR wheel again.

In committed relationships, when larger bonds are attempted, many evil little things can happen. Such as a fictitious massive timeline of "the future" and all its heady weight changing a perfectly good partner into a raving lunatic. Rather than next week, now they're thinking of months, years. The simplest things somehow get overanalyzed and become gross issues. Unlocked are the little demons snorkeling below that shiny surface. And with the added intensity of BDSM atop it, well.

This is why I find that it's of utmost importance to lay it down thick from the beginning. Make it plain that such deviation from an agreement simply means that you wipe your hands of it and walk. You've stated what you want. They've stated what they want. An agreement was made by all parties, and if you do not stand to that agreement, that blatantly defines your willingness to continue the relationship. OOC discussions of this are fine at any time, as open communication is still tantamount...but unacceptable deviations will always cause that microfissure you pointed out to simply grow. And grow, as trust is the most fragile of things.

My only advice would be that if you haven't considered going as far as creating a Contract, it's an option. I have never done this, but especially if I were to go TPE in the future, I would require it. There's more weight to it. More consideration of needs goes into it. It is a tactile agreement that can be cataloged, pointed to and touched, with signatures, and a power to it. And it reminds You of Your duties, and the sub of theirs. Frame it and hang it up in plain sight if you really want to make a point.

I don't know if that's any help, possibly some of those who have more kindred experience can come up with some more specific, sober, and astute advice than I.

Cheers!
-dK

 

[catalina_francisco]

Aaaagh, I need sleep and to get past a couple of things in the next 24 hours before attempting to give this any serious address. I'm not sure I can comment on the aspects dealing with being 'in role' amd out though as we don't do role play. I will try to get back...could be an interesting topic.

Catalina

 

[liberatedslave]

I think a lot of these issues hang on the experience and maturity of each party. Those who are new to 24/7 D/s in an LTR will panic at moments of crisis and revert to old behaviour patterns that worked for them in nilla relationships. When embarking on 24/7 D/s for the first time it's like being in your first ever relationship all over again with the same exhilirating fear of the unkown.

There is also a much stronger bond of trust in D/s IMO. A sub is not only trusting a dom to love and protect but to make the important decisions, control and inflict pain responsibly and act always for the sub and the relationship's good. Likewise the dom needs to be able to command the sub's obedience even when the going gets tough and to know that a sub will communicate honestly and respectfully, using safewords responsibly (where they have been agreed).

Because of all this, if love and trust starts to become fragile a sub doesn't feel safe. It may be a completely irrational fear but left unchecked can cause manipulative behaviour born of the sub's doubt. I've had moments in both my relationships where I've panicked and acted foolishly and rebelliously and it's always been born of inexperience (either of D/s or of my Sir) and irrational fear (and usually when I'm pre-menstrual ).

I don't know if this is relevant to your relationship with your ex but as it's been a major contributor to most lingering, petty conflicts in my LTRs I thought it worth explaining from the sub's view.

 

[Life_Noir]

As others have said....Need sleep first...

 

[AndrewKay]

Thanks

Thank you for the interesting posts.

To Liberatedslave: Your post is very enlightening. I have experienced this from the Dom side. My problem afterwards (maybe it isn't a problem and I've made the right choices) is that once I am put in a position where there is a falling out of submission on a constant basis, there is a lot of loss of trust. Sure, I can play vanilla for a while-- but usually I just walk. I mean even if she were to say later, "hey know, this is the arrangement I actually want," I wouldn't feel comfortable with myself urging a transition from vanilla to D/s in a situation where she decided one day that she would not be a submissive.

Maybe I am dealing with people who are still discovering a lot about themselves and are more likely to flip-flop-- but it's hard for me to not feel like a manipulative asshole if a sub suddenly decided to not be a sub anymore, and we played vanilla for a while, and I suggested we go back to how things were. It's just an uncomfortable barrier to overcome. And even if she were the one to bring it up, I would wonder-- 'How long before things change once again"?

You're right about experience being an issue though. I mean both on my and the sub's part. It makes it both challenging and interesting though.

 

[RJMasters]

When faced with manipulation of non obedience to a task or what not.

This has happened to me many times where I have asked for something and the person doesn't do it or doesn't follow through. Sometimes they are clever about it and think by agree up front but then letting time past by I will forget. lol I never forget...never, not once.

Some things are important to me enough where I will make a point about it. this can be done by A) telling them I am disappointed that they failed me. B) Jump knee deep in their shit with some form of punishment.

However, if you use A too many times it loses its effectiveness, and honestly if you have to use A too many times there is something really wrong to begin with in the power dynamic of the relationship somewhere. B can work well or it can backfire as well. Sometimes it shows them that you are not going to tollerate them pulling your chain and that you care enough to put a stop to it, or it can cause resentment in them and can as you mentioned degrade the relationship altogether.

Then there is option C which right, wrong or indifferent, happens to be a way I deal with it after I have used option A and B a few times. I stop caring. I dump all the responsibility upon them and basically say, that from now on, failed obedience is missed opportunity. I remember once this happed and I explained to them that I accepted their failure though I was disappointed. They immediately said they would do it, and I said no thank you. Even if you did it now, it would not be the same, and they could be sure I would never ask this of them again in the future. It was a lost opportunity that they would never get back again. It is hoped that after something like this takes place, an awakening occurs and they realize that I am not going jump and down and throw a fit nor are they going to provoke a reaction in me. it is hoped they realize at this point that I am not playing around with them, and each time they just don't follow through, it is just one more, and then another and then another. My thinking is this, why should it matter to me if it doesn't matter enough to them? So I don't sweat it and I let it ride till they become miserable. Why are they miserable?

Well if you are to believe that a submissive finds true happiness in submitting and in pleasing their Dom, then by not doing this, it stands to reason that they will not be happy will they?

I am a believer in consequences.

In my way of thinking it is like cheating on a test. In the moment you might get that grade and get by, but it sure isn't going to be of any value to you later on nor is it going help you grow, or have an expereince which you can look back to. If you cheat, you only cheat yourself. In my way of thinking there is no greater punishment that can be done to a person than all the full weight of reality come crashing down on thier shoulders for the decisions they have made.

I have had to live with the consequences when I fuck up and have no qualms letting others do the same. Of course. I don't know if that answered some or part of your question, but there you have it. I sure hope I am not as one dimentional as I think this post sounds...but its waht I felt like posting at this particual moment.

 

[Netzach]

failed obedience is missed opportunity

I'm such a rebel I choose to be with people who pretty much see it this way out the gate, if I'm expecting conscious, codified, D/s or M/s.

 

[Ebonyfire]

Well if you are to believe that a submissive finds true happiness in submitting and in pleasing their Dom, then by not doing this, it stands to reason that they will not be happy will they?

I am a believer in consequences.

This is the bottom line for me.

 

[pandoravampire]

ok, from someone who has exitted a D/s relationship recently. How much did manipulation play?
Well, im in my 40's and manipulation is not a form of communication i find profitable for any concerned, so dont think that i manipulated the situation conciously at all.

There were definate factors that did manipulate things however. Like, i find that my social circle dwindled in the D/s. First, as we really did want to spend our every waking moment alone and together. That lasted about 6 months, then, again, only us in the space, due to moving interstate and not knowing anyone socially for a while there. Then some financial worries, so that we couldnt afford to go out together for a while. So whilst neither he nor i, manipulated that situation, it was manipulated into the unhealthy sphere of isolation, by life. So that 3 yrs down the road, and you wonder where all your friends went? They buggered off from lack of maintenance of course.

Then there was the 'wanting Sir to be happy' motivating manipulation. Where my need to please him, would prompt self sacrificing behaviour, that whilst he never requested, he accepted. Like, i wont go out tonight. Sometimes that fuss it took to leave him, allbeit for a few hours, just wasnt worth the angst. I got lazy, and it seemed easier to just buckle, than face MY feeling that i was not doing it right by him. And he was always happy to have me curled at his feet, rather than worry i might be having fun elsewhere perhaps? I inherited a legacy left by some toss pot of a woman who cheated on him, creating trust issues for him. His trust issues, and maladaptive means of coping, were certainly helped by the title he held.
There was also, some other events, whereby, in retrospect, im left wondering if he shouldnt of risen above lifes manipulating things for him, and perhaps should of insisted in me doing things differently, more healthily for me, and consequently us.

Some other forms of manipulation that i have definately pulled are:
when we first got together, i had topped. I had more skill in my little finger for spanking and flogging, than he did. No amount of offerring suggestion was palatable. So, despite him being in the closet bdsm wise. I got us to a demo. Where i sat enthralled by some guys skill in delivering these delightful sensations to a lucky lady. He sat beside me, i ensured he could see the demo. And lo and behold, the next attempt of his, had 'suddenly' improved vastly! thank god!
I manipulated that to happen. He got a lesson not apparently driven by his sub, topping from the bottom. Yeah, whatever. Does it really matter where the lessons come from? Id of been happy to do a demo, talk him through it, but back then, he was too tied up with reading all this shit about subs topping from the bottom to use the learning tool knelt at his feet!

so, id say, although i dont have the insight to recognise my own manipulation of situations, i can see his manipulative behaviours. But as to wether they were concisous or not, im not sure. Id like to think not. But havent finished processing this.

 

[Netzach]

ok, from someone who has exitted a D/s relationship recently. How much did manipulation play?
Well, im in my 40's and manipulation is not a form of communication i find profitable for any concerned, so dont think that i manipulated the situation conciously at all.

There were definate factors that did manipulate things however. Like, i find that my social circle dwindled in the D/s. First, as we really did want to spend our every waking moment alone and together. That lasted about 6 months, then, again, only us in the space, due to moving interstate and not knowing anyone socially for a while there. Then some financial worries, so that we couldnt afford to go out together for a while. So whilst neither he nor i, manipulated that situation, it was manipulated into the unhealthy sphere of isolation, by life. So that 3 yrs down the road, and you wonder where all your friends went? They buggered off from lack of maintenance of course.

Then there was the 'wanting Sir to be happy' motivating manipulation. Where my need to please him, would prompt self sacrificing behaviour, that whilst he never requested, he accepted. Like, i wont go out tonight. Sometimes that fuss it took to leave him, allbeit for a few hours, just wasnt worth the angst. I got lazy, and it seemed easier to just buckle, than face MY feeling that i was not doing it right by him. And he was always happy to have me curled at his feet, rather than worry i might be having fun elsewhere perhaps? I inherited a legacy left by some toss pot of a woman who cheated on him, creating trust issues for him. His trust issues, and maladaptive means of coping, were certainly helped by the title he held.
There was also, some other events, whereby, in retrospect, im left wondering if he shouldnt of risen above lifes manipulating things for him, and perhaps should of insisted in me doing things differently, more healthily for me, and consequently us.

Some other forms of manipulation that i have definately pulled are:
when we first got together, i had topped. I had more skill in my little finger for spanking and flogging, than he did. No amount of offerring suggestion was palatable. So, despite him being in the closet bdsm wise. I got us to a demo. Where i sat enthralled by some guys skill in delivering these delightful sensations to a lucky lady. He sat beside me, i ensured he could see the demo. And lo and behold, the next attempt of his, had 'suddenly' improved vastly! thank god!
I manipulated that to happen. He got a lesson not apparently driven by his sub, topping from the bottom. Yeah, whatever. Does it really matter where the lessons come from? Id of been happy to do a demo, talk him through it, but back then, he was too tied up with reading all this shit about subs topping from the bottom to use the learning tool knelt at his feet!

so, id say, although i dont have the insight to recognise my own manipulation of situations, i can see his manipulative behaviours. But as to wether they were concisous or not, im not sure. Id like to think not. But havent finished processing this.

It sounds like you have a very strong handle on the issues that went wrong. I think the isolation thing is something just about any couple needs to take active pains to avoid happening - it's natural to break off and float away, but it's really a sign of issues when your partner can't see or admit to the value of having friends and things to do outside the relationship and you don't want to be part of some ultimate, self contained dyad.

I can see a lot of our situation a number of months back in the first part of the post, and I didn't like what I saw, so I'm making an effort to stay socialized and to kick M's little introverted ass out the door once in a while, for which he's always happy (no kidding?) "Wow that was FUN!"

"No amount of offerring suggestion was palatable."

Red. Flag. for the future, eh? Yuck.

I have to admit when I met my husband and we began playing his pointers on rope bondage pissed me off, hugely.

But we talked about it, and I could see the value in what he knew about tying him up, and so I decided that just playing around without any scene sense or D/s sense would allow him to teach me without me feeling controlled or critiqued and I learned a lot. I think my sensitivity to this issue was old knee jerk perpetually critical family stuff or something.

 

[IsabellaSnow]

My personal opinion would be that if a sub is exhibiting true defiance on such a level there can only be 3 reasons.

1 - They're bratting to let you know they are evolving and need stronger consequences, and they hope you will provide them.

2 - They've evolved beyond your present dynamic and its manifesting in a manner beyond the scope of your relationship.

3 - They're no longer feeling whatever they felt when the relationship began - in which case no amount of consequences will get it back.