Dog training and obeidience

[Weird Harold]

(And for the record, pitbulls when properly raised are incredible kids' dogs..

I think the time constraint of an impending deployment is the main stumbling block here.

In general, a Black Lab/Pitbull crossbreed can be the perfect dog for your needs IF you had the time to complete the training before leaving the wife to cope on her own for a while.

Perhaps sending the dog to your relative for training with an eventual goal of bringing it back after it's trained and your deployment is over would be a good solution. It wouldn't fill your wife's need for a dog while you're gone, but it would remove the potential danger to the children.

Choosing a replacement to fill your wife's need is going to present as much of problem as what to do with this dog, I think. At least this dog is somewhat used to your family; how is a new dog going to fit in quickly enough for you to be comfortable with it's reliablity?

As noted by sunfox, any breed or size of dog can be a problem or even a danger to children, and the personality fit of the new dog with your family is going to be very important in this case.

I don't envy you your dilema.

 

[thickspear]

get rid of that dog right away...i've owned more that one pitbull and have known others...some are ok with kids, some are great with kids but when a pit gets to about a year you'll see what demeanor he will be all his adult life...

my last pit was a blak lab mix..he was handsome, intelligent and loveable but when he got to a year old he attacked my other dog and did some serious damage...i tried to keep them seperate but a second attack convinced me to get rid of him...the dog then attacked the nearly adult son of the people who took him from me...

please please please don't take any chances with those kids...when my pit attacked my other dog i was unable to seperate them even though i put a high pressure water blast from a hose directly into his nostrils...the pit then drug the other dog under a shed...it was so scary...it made me sick...

after he attacked my friends son i had him put to sleep...no more pits for me...mixed or otherwise

 

[sunfox]

get rid of that dog right away...i've owned more that one pitbull and have known others...some are ok with kids, some are great with kids but when a pit gets to about a year you'll see what demeanor he will be all his adult life...

my last pit was a blak lab mix..he was handsome, intelligent and loveable but when he got to a year old he attacked my other dog and did some serious damage...i tried to keep them seperate but a second attack convinced me to get rid of him...the dog then attacked the nearly adult son of the people who took him from me...

please please please don't take any chances with those kids...when my pit attacked my other dog i was unable to seperate them even though i put a high pressure water blast from a hose directly into his nostrils...the pit then drug the other dog under a shed...it was so scary...it made me sick...

after he attacked my friends son i had him put to sleep...no more pits for me...mixed or otherwise

It would be wise to consider two things here... one, that pitbulls are dog aggressive. Period. Anyone who tells you otherwise is lying to you. Can they get along with other dogs? Yes. But if there is the slightest hint of aggression, a pitbull will finish the fight in short and bloody order. Dog aggression, however, is not people aggression, and pitbulls are NOT naturally inclined to aggress humans.

Secondly, the dog was not purebred. I've been bitten by labradors when training dogs, as well as beagles, poodles, and on one memorable occasion, a miniature pinscher. I've never been bitten by a pitbull, rottweiler, doberman, dogue de bordeaux, or any other "aggressive" breed. Overbreeding leads to bad temperaments... labradors are the most overbred dog in the world today next to the pitbull, so you must remember that in all likelyhood, the dog was not the most pristine example of -either- breed.

The problem here is not in the dog's breed makeup. It is in the fact that the dog has a hazy background, and there is a time constraint for lost5. He seems to be trying to make a good decision, and it's useless to cloud it with breedism.

 

[Weird Harold]

The problem here is not in the dog's breed makeup. It is in the fact that the dog has a hazy background, and there is a time constraint for lost5. He seems to be trying to make a good decision, and it's useless to cloud it with breedism.

Hear! Hear!

I think all of us can come up with some horror story about dog attacks -- I happen to have a scar from a dog-bite on my lip, courtesy of a neighbor's very amiable basset hound when I was twelve. I did something that the dog interpreted as a threat and, exactly as nature intended, he responded to the threat by snapping at me.

However, most of our horror stories don't apply to this situation. The dog's newly agressive behavior is probably the result of something the four-year-old has done or is doing that the dog feels he needs to take a stand against -- it's a normal part of establishing his place in the pack.

Without the time constraints involved, it's probably a fairly simple training problem. With the time constraints, it becomes a source of concern over providing the training in a short time frame or HOW to provide the training while L5P is gone.

PS: a question for L5P -- could the dog's behavior change be linked to being protective of the new baby?

 

[thickspear]

if you re-read my post it wasn't a breed bashing thing...i had a very bad experience with a particular dog and have seen other pits good and bad...

a good pit is a keeper..a bad pit could be fatal to children....who wants to take a chance with their own children ?..a one year pit that exhibits territorial behavior to a four year old and snaps at the child is a big red flag...

the pits seen in animal shelters are not the same as pits from twenty years ago...they're bigger, more muscular and are often the product of people who owned them for the wrong reason..

and i've seen pups from good bitches turn mean without having ever been abused...i believe pits are far more dangerous than basset hounds, cockers, labs and etc...

i'm not against pits in general..they have their value and good traits....but a one year pit that exhibets the described behavior belongs in a home without vulnerable children...it's just the responsible thing to do

 

[5pintshefound]

Hi everyone... first off, thank you all for your advice. This is the first that I've been able to post on the issue, and there are a few factors that you all need to know.

Buck {the dog} is incredibly loving. There has just been a few instances where he DID snap at Kyle {our 4 yr old}.

Wierd Harold, you hit the nail on the head with this.. Kyle HAS been meaner towards Buck. The first time that Buck snapped at Kyle, Kyle had just stepped on his penis. Not his tummy, not his back, but his pee pee. The second time that Buck snapped at Kyle, Buck had been sleeping,and kyle woke him up. Also, Buck is INCREDIBLY protective of Gabe {the newborn}. When Gabe cries, Bucks te first one there, and he HATES it when we have to burp Gabe. AND! my mother is here visiting {a woman who truely does not like dogs of any kind} and hes even made up with her.

Now, before any of you tell me that im a horrible parent because I'm trying to see if there is a way to keep the dog, please keep in mind, that Kyle and Buck DO! have good play times together, and Buck isnt ALWAYS aggressive towards Kyle. There has only been a few incidents of this.

Also, yes, I DO have an anxiety disorder, and if any of you know what that is, then you understand that having my private life broadcasted across the internet is VERY hard for me. BUT! we came here looking for help. I was very upset to see so many of you judging us, when we came here looking for help. Buck is the first dog I have ever owned, and L5P hasnt had a dog in 14 years, so neither of us really know that much about them.

L5P will be leaving for school, and then subsequently will go to bahrain in August. Myself and the kids {and hopefully Buck} will be going home to western pa for the year L5PsthereI am not planning to get a job {and if Ido it will only be part time, to help pass the year} AND! my parents are VERY supportive in that, I've already been told that I have a sitter whenever I need one. Buck was originally gotten for me, after we had to deal with a fellow sailor being arrested in my house because he tried to beat his wife there {an ugly story, but if your interested ill tell you all...} the sailor then was taken to the brig, and was kicked out of the Navy. We got Buck so that in case the man mentioned, tried to come back {it WAS threatened that he would} that i would have something to help protect me and Kyle {i was pregnant with Gabe at the time}. Buck HAS scared off someone that was outside my house one night, AND! if someone comes to the door, hes the first one there, and if it turns out to be someone that he doesnt know, he stays between me and the person. SO all in all, hes doing just what we got him for.

also, some of you mentioned the problem with him being a shelter dog, and that is a very valid concern. the one thing that I do know about his background is that he was given to the shelter becuase of a chewing the furniture problem, which has now been fixed.
AND! Buck is incredibly smart. My husband was out walking him one night, and a neighbors dog got loose, and when L5P told Buck to sit, Buck sat. even tho the dog was coming at him and barking.

anyway, thats just a little more info into the situation.

~~5PHF

 

[peachykeen]

5P-

I appreciate what you are saying. I have no doubt that 99.999% this is a great dog. But when you say "just a few instances" I can't help but think, how do you know the next instance won't be the one where he takes your son's face off?

 

[Weird Harold]

Wierd Harold, you hit the nail on the head with this.. Kyle HAS been meaner towards Buck. The first time that Buck snapped at Kyle, Kyle had just stepped on his penis.
...
Also, Buck is INCREDIBLY protective of Gabe {the newborn}. When Gabe cries, Bucks the first one there, and he HATES it when we have to burp Gabe.

I don't think Buck needs training, I think Kyle needs training. I think I'd probably have snapped at him, too.

You paint a much different picture of the situation than the original post does. Your version matches my experiences with kids and dogs -- the kids are usually not completely innocent when they get snapped at; ignorant maybe, but not innocent.

The question now becomes, can you feel confident that you can keep either Kyle or Buck from escalating things to a dangerous point?

The interaction between a dog that's protective of a newborn and the natural jealousy of a four-year-old for a first sibling can get out of hand fairly quickly -- especially with a young dog involved.

The move to western PA, has the potential to increase the stress on both Kyle and Buck. With the changes in the family structure, Dad leaving for a year, and moving to strange surroundings, be prepared for strange behavior from both boy and dog as they try to adapt to the changes in their lives.

If you stay on top of the situation, I don't think it will develop into anything serious.

If there is any way you can arrange for both Kyle and Buck to attend some sort of training together after the move, it will help both of them deal with everything that's going on. Exactly what kind of training isn't as important as that they attend together so they can better understand each other.

 

[sunfox]

if you re-read my post it wasn't a breed bashing thing...i had a very bad experience with a particular dog and have seen other pits good and bad...

a good pit is a keeper..a bad pit could be fatal to children....who wants to take a chance with their own children ?..a one year pit that exhibits territorial behavior to a four year old and snaps at the child is a big red flag...

the pits seen in animal shelters are not the same as pits from twenty years ago...they're bigger, more muscular and are often the product of people who owned them for the wrong reason..

and i've seen pups from good bitches turn mean without having ever been abused...i believe pits are far more dangerous than basset hounds, cockers, labs and etc...

i'm not against pits in general..they have their value and good traits....but a one year pit that exhibets the described behavior belongs in a home without vulnerable children...it's just the responsible thing to do

Here I will repeat for you one more time, the last time, as I don't much believe in dragging a horse to water over and over again if he'd rather die of thirst... Pitbulls are no more dangerous than any other dog. All dogs can bite, due to the incontrovertable fact that they possess teeth. Labradors often have at least twenty lbs on a pitbull, and are equally capable of killing a child. I can find you at least ten instances of dogs UNDER ten lbs killing a baby.

I have a ninety plus pound german shepherd in my house, sleeping at the moment in my kitchen. He cut open his foot rather badly a few days ago, and it is very sore. My daughter stepped on his foot... yes, this is the protection trained dog... tonight, and he whimpered, but didn't even growl at her.

Is this dog dangerous? Knock on my door and find out, if you're really really fast. But as a well-socialized, well-loved member of my family, is he dangerous to my kidlet? (You think I'm going to say no, don't you?) Yes, he is. He's immensely patient with her. He loves her and protects her, as he does all of us, including our smaller dogs. But he is an animal, and cannot always interpret a situation correctly, particularly if he is hurt.

As an adult, you have to wisely watch your child around pets at all times. Don't place the blame on the dog when it's yours. Never trust ANY dog around a child alone. It's a recipe for disaster, whether that dog is a three lb Yorkshire Terrier, or a 185 lb English Mastiff.

5PHF... He sounds like a wonderful dog, and with your post, I can understand how the aggression happened. I am in agreement with Harold here, that you should weigh if you can control the situation well enough to protect both the dog and your child, and make your choice accordingly. I'm not going to advocate removing the dog if you feel he can learn to handle the child better, and you seem to have a good handle on understanding why the dog got upset.

Kudos, btw, for adopting him without prejudice for his breed. More people should be like you.

 

[warrior queen]

answer this question -

are you absolutely, 100%, without equivocation, SURE that your 4 year old son will never, ever have the chance to annoy that dog?

because if you aren't, then your answer should be to get rid of the dog.

it only takes a split second for things to get completely out of control, and you will FOREVER regret that you did not choose your child's safety over the companionship of an animal.

 

[frustratedpoodle]

Pits get a bad rap. I grew up with two that used to actually get babysitting detail! However, if you cannot trust your dog around your children, and training courses do not help (they are never too old to learn), then you might consider more extreme options, such as finding him another home where he will be taken care of and loved. It doesn't matter if the dog is a Pit or a Poodle, the teeth still cut and though one can do more damage than the other, there is no need for that.

Until this dog is better trained, do not leave him unsupervised with your child. That is a given, but it has to be said.

I have worked with animals for a long time, and have found that most behavior issues stem from the owners not acting the Alpha. Remember that they are pack animals, and your dog may just be doing this now in order to keep his status in the pack because he knows there will be a new member.

Good luck!

 

[warrior queen]

i have nothing against pitbulls, or any dog for that matter - i have owned several different breeds, and adore the companionship and mateship that a good dog provides.

that being said - i DO have many things against dogs that 'snap' or are agressive in any way, regardless of whether that is due to poor training or temprament.

dogs that show even slightly agressive tendancies should NEVER be allowed to remain with children - the combination of boisterous child + irritable dog = DANGER.

no matter how well you retrain the dog, or how well you teach children, there is always going to be that unknown factor that could set the dog off.

is it really worth the risk? even if the risk is only 0.05%?

i don't think so.

edited to add - i have seen terrible injuries done by a chihuahua on a small child, so as i said, it's not the breed that concerns me, it's the dog itself and the traits you have described already as being present.

 

[frustratedpoodle]

Excellent Point

My first week as a veterinary technician, I was attacked by a Miniature Pinscher. This dog was so aggressive, that it was actually hanging from my fingers, and by the time we managed to subdue the little rat on acid, my blood was spattered all over the treatment room. Mind you, in my line of work, unless your life is threatened you just /don't/ hurt an animal. So, I didn't win that battle, and ended up with stitches.

 

[warrior queen]

Re: Excellent Point

My first week as a veterinary technician, I was attacked by a Miniature Pinscher. This dog was so aggressive, that it was actually hanging from my fingers, and by the time we managed to subdue the little rat on acid, my blood was spattered all over the treatment room. Mind you, in my line of work, unless your life is threatened you just /don't/ hurt an animal. So, I didn't win that battle, and ended up with stitches.

in many ways, smaller breeds are worse to have around children because of their 'snappy' and hyperactive behaviour.

any dog that shows any bad behaviour should be removed from the presence of young children.
regardless of size.

but let's face it, if a dog the size of a pitbull or lab or shepherd gets to the point of snapping - the damage could well be fatal, not just a few stitches.

it is absolutely not worth the risk.

 

[CelticFrog]

answer this question -

are you absolutely, 100%, without equivocation, SURE that your 4 year old son will never, ever have the chance to annoy that dog?

because if you aren't, then your answer should be to get rid of the dog.

it only takes a split second for things to get completely out of control, and you will FOREVER regret that you did not choose your child's safety over the companionship of an animal.

Okay. I disagree here.
If your solution were to be put into practical use in every household with children, none of them would ever have the companionship and love of a pet dog. Why? Because there is never a 100% with any animal.

That is all.
Ang

 

[autoerotism]

My opinion don't mean much obviously you are going to do what you feel is best. How would I test a dog for compatability. Simple ask your self this can either child take the food out of the bowl while dear "Buck" is eating? If the answer is no then, the dog is not suitable for a toddler never mind an infant.

If you can't see that being your childs safety first you best consider seriously what you are doing.

This does not mean you need to remove the dog completely this means you need an out side cage for dearest buck. Not only that, you need only to allow contact between your children and the dog when under the strictest conditions.

Any one who would ever have any least bit amount of doubt and not take immediate action is sick in the mind. Do you know how fast that dog in particular could inflict dammage on a man never mind youth or infant. You could be standing right there and not save your own son. Some protection you got when the dog is a higher probability to more likely to hurt your family than any one else.

But hey what the heck that is why you got him, bottom line to hurt people if needed. So ask your self will he hurt the right person?

My opinion only, don't take offense but I believe when it comes to children the only good dog is a dead dog. I happen to love dogs and for older children some dogs make wonderful companions. I happen to love children too. Children get punished because they do not always do what they are told.

Can you have a child and a dog. Yup if you are over cautious and more than dilligent keeping dog and child separated. Is it funny that the boy stepped on the dogs we wee? Who's fault is that? It was your fault. Obviously you are not dilligent enough to protect the dog and or the children. But always consider the child is 100% more important than the dog.

I don't care be pissy at me but you said it the dog is being tormented he will react. You know this and are allowing it to happen you make me sick with fear over the children.

Kay~

 

[frustratedpoodle]

Not So Simple

Certainly, the child is more important than the dog, and precautions should be taken on several fronts when one is a dog owner and a parent. This means teaching the child to respect the animal, and having a highly socialized animal. It means trusting both child and pet.

The bond between a child and a pet is an important one in life, and while I am all for removing a dangerous dog from the presence of a child, keeping the two apart under all circumstances is nothing I would stand behind. I don't know what it's like to /not/ have a dog. When I was really young, the dogs we did have, a Golden Retriever, Pit Bull (this one became the patron saint of neighborhood children, protective of us all), a Husky, and a Wolfhound mix, were incredibly attached to the youngin's, as well as fiercely protective of us. They were playmates, friends, and a part of the family.

But you have to know your animal, and if you think that the animal could hurt your child, then you don't allow for situations where that potential can realize itself.

 

[sheath]

Okay. I disagree here.
If your solution were to be put into practical use in every household with children, none of them would ever have the companionship and love of a pet dog. Why? Because there is never a 100% with any animal.

That is all.
Ang

I don't think warrior queen was trying to offer something to be put into 'practical use in every household'. I think the point was much more focused to this particular discussion.

I would agree that there is never 100% with an animal.

However, in this particular case, the animal HAS snapped at the child. More than once. One single incident brought down the credibility of the dog's potential to be a family pet. Now that there is another child in the house, the odds of that dog being annoyed even further are significantly multiplied.

I am in agreement here...get rid of the dog. If you do get another dog, start from scratch with a puppy and make sure you have the time to train it properly.

S.

 

[warrior queen]

Our sweet "ol man" Freckles is a mixture of breeds that have somewhat inconsitent track records with kids, Greyhound and Australian Shepard and people always wonder why he's so incredible with kids.

you do realise there is no such breed as an Australian Shepherd?
i've been hearing things about this so-called breed for a few weeks now, and have checked with breeders and vets, and there is no such breed.
someone over there must have brought in a dog, decided to give it a fancy name, and is now making a killing!

the pictures i have seen of australian shepherds have all been different, and show mixed-breed dogs - typical farm animals..... border collie, kelpie, blue heeler bitzers!
basically, your average heinz57 variety.

 

[A7inchPhildo]

"Let me give my two cents, can I, can I please!"

My brother has a unique dog, whatever.

He has a little 4yr old boy and an infant/toddler. Now the dog is overly protective of the little girl. I mean genuine this dog loves the little girl to no end.

Here is the flip side the dog is deathly afraid of the little boy, like runs and cries. Dog abuse no doubt he is the terrorr of terrors Satan's child I think. Now when it comes to anyone else the dog is a complete menace. My brother and his wife included, partially included that is.

If any one gets near the little girl the dog will bite, other than her brother. He is that protective of her. I know it is a little dog compared to a pit bull or routie so how bad can it be. Honestly it is pretty bad.

If they are in the yard playing the dog follows her every move never more than five feet away, and anyone or another dog comes with in 20 feet he attacks brutally with out warning.

Now it is funny in the house he is a little more relaxed about others. But I have seen her playing on the floor and she will say, "Eye" and litterally poke it in the eye. The dog will only snuggle closer to her trying to prevent her from doing it again.

It is the funniest thing to see this little four year old tie up the dog when no one else wants to even try. He walks over and the dog cowers. Tail between his legs and starts whimpering. I or my brother could yell at the dog all day long and it will just look at us staying just out of reach. The boy peeps out his commands and the dog just does it.

My honest thoughts are I do not trust the reasoning behind animals. Dogs and cats are still animals. Even the best ones are still worthy of being cautious when they are around children.

 

[cremebrulee]

I understand your being upset when the advice you have recieved is contrary to what you were hoping for, but please take this for what it is worth. I know you care about your children. I care about mine, no doubts there ~ and I ALSO have suffered from severe anxiety for a few years now to the point of nearly being hospitalised on several occasions.
The main point that I see coming across here is that anmals can be unpredictable, and when it comes to the well being of your children NOTHING should come before them.

You are not being judged in any way, not from me!

But I have seen a dog that started nipping at a little one. He was a gently dumb baby of a dog, but the kid stepped into his territory and that's when things started going wrong. Ask yourself this :
Do you have time and resources to take this dog in for obedience training? If so, then kenneling him when you are not able to watch him with your children (just until you have some things squared away) mihgt be another answer.
Another thing you may want to take into consideration is the fact that you will be moving soon. The dog will not only be adjusting to some stepping on and new baby issues, but a new environment. Dogs can be unpredictable in such situations.
PLEASE ~ I know he has been a wonderful dog for you, but I have witnessed a good, gentle family dog pushed to his edge and suddenly out of nowhere tear a chunk of my cousins face off in front of my eyes. We were jumping on the bed and didn't even realize the dog was bugged by it. It was a simple little thing all kids do... She still has scars, but it could have been much worse if the bite would have been two inches in a different direction.
You just have to weigh it out~
WILL YOU HAVE TIME to train and move and take care of babies while your hubby is deployed? It's rough enough with little ones alone (even with the help of parents) without having the worry that your dog might not come around the way you want him to.
Personally, I'd rather go through the heartache of adopting him out than to take the chance of him injuring my babies, regardless of what breed he is ~ the chance is still there.

I wish you the best, no matter what your decision.
There is more I could say, if you wish to PM me,
I can be a shoulder too.


Take care

~Creme

 

[CelticFrog]

Australian Shepherd Official UKC Standard

 

[sunfox]

Australian Shepherd Official UKC Standard

Yes, this is a breed.

Seeing pictures of mixed breeds with Aussie shepherd in them does not make it less a breed, any more than it makes the German Shepherd less of a breed because so many dogs are mixed with it. It is, however, not Australian, and no one is exactly sure where that misnomer came from.. it's an American breed.

Quite simply, I have to say that in the case of this dog... it's their choice what to do, and they're not bad parents if they choose to keep the dog, nor are they if they chose to find another home for him. Honestly, as good natured as our Shepherd and Sheltie are, I'd have to say I'd be shocked if they -didn't- snap at someone for stepping on their penises. I think my guy would probably snap at me if I stepped on his, for that matter.

I will agree, there needs to be stronger supervision and stronger punishments, perhaps, if the child abuses the dog... but I know how hard it is to be always watching. If you don't feel like your dog can handle a little roughhousing (beyond having sexual parts crushed, that is, which is NOT normal roughhousing) then definitely, it may be best to consider another home.

With training, the dog could be a wonderful family pet, as most pits that aren't abused or mistreated are. But be certain you have the time to do the training, and keep it up after the classes are over... and get the dog a crate if he doesn't have one, for safe time away from the kids. Our dogs go into their crates on their own for quiet time, and it lets us keep peace when the little one is on an ear pulling rampage.

 

[Odin55]

Just a quick word about the Australia Sheperd. The Australian Kennel club don't recognise the Australian Sheperd as a breed, although the breeds of the breed are trying to change this. The USA Kennel club do recognise it as a pure breed. I noticed that warrior queen comes from Australia so seaching the recognised Australian breeds would not show the Australian Sheperd as a pure breed dog.

 

[CelticFrog]

The USA Kennel club do recognise it as a pure breed.

Not just the USA. Note that I linked the UK Kennel club's standards on purpose.