Does shame exist?

[Pure]

//And humiliation is just another word for embarrassment, right? //

no.

but I like the remark about death and fear. the biggest fear may be loss of coherent self, self that means anything, including self that's worthy of respect (the last having to do with shame).

p.

 

[catalina_francisco]

//And humiliation is just another word for embarrassment, right? //

p.

Have t agree with you Pure...to me they are vastly different states.

C

 

[dr_mabeuse]

//And humiliation is just another word for embarrassment, right? //

no.

Okay. I'll admit I'm no expert in this area. It seems to me though that you cona't feel humiliation without feeling embarrassment, but you can feel embarrassed without feeling humiliated, right?

Is that what you mean? Or could you expand on it?

---dr.M.

 

[Pure]

Hi dr m.

//It seems to me though that you cona't feel humiliation without feeling embarrassment, but you can feel embarrassed without feeling humiliated, right?//

I have no problem with the second part of your statement.

For humiliation, I think of a scene described by a poster at a site, where he is chained, seated to a pole at a party, with a tin cup in his hand. On his chest is a sign: "Blow jobs 25 cents." And the offer to all was made good with many.

I don't think the term 'embarrassment' would much apply at all.

I think humiliation actively goes towards the root of the person's self respect.

J.

 

[A Desert Rose]

You all amaze me. All of you talk around this subject.

As I said earlier:

One can be embarrassed and have no conscience.
One cannot feel shame without it.

Shame rests squarely on whether a person has a conscience or not.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Discussion is always healthy. http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/fingers/fing36.gif

 

[cellis]

You all amaze me. All of you talk around this subject.

As I said earlier:

One can be embarrassed and have no conscience.
One cannot feel shame without it.

Shame rests squarely on whether a person has a conscience or not.

Hello Rose!

I think you are on the money with this statement....

 

[A Desert Rose]

Discussion is always healthy. http://users.pandora.be/eforum/emoticons4u/fingers/fing36.gif

Let's discuss what a conscience is, then. I am sure that everyone has a different opinion of what that word means, how it manifests itself in our lives, etc.

I have thought a lot about this over the past days. What is shameful to me... what has caused me to feel shame... where did it (shame) come from to begin with, inside of me...

I am too tired to go into this further now. But I hope to in a couple of days when I have a day off and if this discussion goes anywhere.

I can tell you this, being raised a Catholic has a great deal to do with where my shame comes from and how it manifests itself in my life. I am sure everyone has a different view on it.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Hello Rose!

I think you are on the money with this statement....

Hi cellis!!!!

Do you know how much I miss you?

 

[sweetnpetite]

Let's discuss what a conscience is, then. I am sure that everyone has a different opinion of what that word means, how it manifests itself in our lives, etc.

I have thought a lot about this over the past days. What is shameful to me... what has caused me to feel shame... where did it (shame) come from to begin with, inside of me...

I am too tired to go into this further now. But I hope to in a couple of days when I have a day off and if this discussion goes anywhere.

I can tell you this, being raised a Catholic has a great deal to do with where my shame comes from and how it manifests itself in my life. I am sure everyone has a different view on it.

Somehow i knew youu weree catholic when you linked Shame and Concience. (I somewhat turned it arouund and wondeed if you also ment that if you don't feel shame you don't have a concious?) I wonder how this statement applies in the lives- and vocabularies- of non catholics and non-christians.

 

[Johnny Mayberry]

Somehow i knew youu weree catholic when you linked Shame and Concience. (I somewhat turned it arouund and wondeed if you also ment that if you don't feel shame you don't have a concious?) I wonder how this statement applies in the lives- and vocabularies- of non catholics and non-christians.

Hah, a perfect opening for me!!

As an Atheist, the whole concept of shame is nearly a non-issue. I think religions sort of program you towards those sorts of reactions to things you do. I don't think people are hardwired for shame, I think it comes from social programing. Since I was raised by wolves(*snicker*), I don't do the whole shame thing, which really bugs my Catholic parents.
I think that there are certain bad decisions I have made in my life, that I am not proud of, but without the pre-programmed shame factor, I do my best to fix things, and then move on. I rarely feel embarrassment, let alone shame...I don't do things that set me up for that feeling, I guess...

Was this a waste of a good ramble?

 

[Pure]

It's a good question what is conscience?

But one needn't assume it always has the same form.

In developmental psych.,shame occurs at 2-3 years and precedes real conscience at 4-5, though not a sense of what's expected.

"Real conscience" has to do with abstaining from something that's wrong, out of an internalized sense that it's wrong. It enables one to say "I did the right thing." (I did not tell a lie.)

Younger kids are more controlled by the 'getting caught' factor. Yet shame as in "You soiled your pants." is possible, because 2-3 year olds have the beginning of 'pride'-- be a big boy; don't be a baby, etc. "I am a big girl." is an announcement of pride. "I don't wear diapers." etc.

There is no reason that the Catholic upbringing can't instill shame early, then begin to work on guilt a bit later. I feel 'guilt ridden' is somewhat more applicable to actions, based on some Catholic SOs.

The whole discomfort with the body, however, may fall under 'shame', and of course that's said to go back to Adam and Eve being ashamed in the Garden, after they broke the rules and acquired knowledge of good and evil.

J.

PS I see no reason why an atheist, say an officer in the Red Army could not feel shame in certain conditions, having to do with one's pride as an officer; the 'code' that is socially accepted amond officers. Japanese are not 'god-centered' most of them, and they feel shame, based on what they can be proud of: serve the Emporer, in WWII, for instance.

 

[A Desert Rose]

As I said, everyone will have a different view on what a conscience is. And this is mine:

Having a conscience is not just knowing what is right and what is not, but suffering for doing that which is not right. (What is right, in the sense of what goes against whatever ethics and morals one lives by, is the reference I am using.)

Some of you can come out and tout your psychology and philosophy, but most everyone (at least, I hope) knows the feeling when one violates their own conscience. Most of us know the *shame* that racks our lives when we have failed to do the right thing, when we have wronged someone, when we have ignored what is right for what is easiest, when we have let down ourselves and those whom we love. I know these feelings and the *shame* that follows when I have acted wrongly. I am certain that many others know those feelings, too.

Having a conscience has nothing to do with being Catholic, Buddahist or atheist, although it is a reference point for me, personally. It is about what we have been taught that is right and moral.

A consciense, in my opinion, is the compass by which we direct our lives.

 

[Nomar69dragon]

Shame? whats that?

Hey what this about shame?
not such thing i say.
Nomar69dragon

 

[Pure]

adr,
//Some of you can come out and tout your psychology and philosophy, but most everyone (at least, I hope) knows the feeling when one violates their own conscience. Most of us know the *shame* that racks our lives when we have failed to do the right thing, //

and at what age do kids generally have a keen sense of failing to do the right thing, i.e., have conscience? or, in your other words,
"[suffer] for doing that which is not right" ?

J.

 

[A Desert Rose]

adr,
//Some of you can come out and tout your psychology and philosophy, but most everyone (at least, I hope) knows the feeling when one violates their own conscience. Most of us know the *shame* that racks our lives when we have failed to do the right thing, //

and at what age do kids generally have a keen sense of failing to do the right thing, i.e., have conscience? or, in your other words,
"[suffer] for doing that which is not right" ?

J.

I have no idea.

I am speaking to adults about adult emotions. I am sure you know all about children. I only speak of what I know about from my OWN experience. I know the shame of doing the wrong thing when I knew what the right thing was.

You tell us about kids.

(By the way, thanks for leaving that flower off. When it comes to posting to me.... I know its inauthentic.)

 

[Pure]

//I know the shame of doing the wrong thing when I knew what the right thing was. //

And at what age were you? What is the earliest time you remember suffering inwardly over not doing the right thing, and what was it about?


(authentic)

 

[sweetnpetite]

In general, I think that shame is something you try to hide, and is *more* than an emotion. Shame is internal and personal and there is really no way of telling if someone else is experiencing it or not by their outward appearance. Shame is something we often want to deny so many people who are ashamed act contrary any expectation of how they should or would act.

If shame is linked to conscience, and rape victims often feel shame, does that mean that a rape victim that does *not* feel shame does not have a conscience? (for example) since people often feel shame for things over which they have no control such as being poor, having sexual feelings, there own bodies, ect- is it possible that consccience is *not* a determining factor in the ability to feel shame? Is it possible for someone who prides themself on being 'in charge' - who would do anything to stay in charge and has no pang of conscience about hurting others- could feel shame if said person where victimised and lost there sence of power?

Maybe shame is what happens when you have discord between who you really are and your sence of your self. For people who see themselves as being a moral person, concience would come einto play. The more rules you have for living (shoulds and aught nots) the more opportunity to feel shame, but not living up to your own expectations for yourself.

I think that shame is really hard to get rid of once it's 'programmed' in, and in a BDSM relationship, real shame *is* present. Although we have the urge to cover it up, acting out that shame is a way of rebelling against it- trying to say, "shame you have no controll over me- I control you." and that is why we find pleasure in our pain. outwardly we 'know' that what we are doing isn't really bad but deep down we think it must be. Its an internal conflict. IF we didn't truly deep down feel shame, what would be the point of inflicting it?

It kinda goes to that old saying, "keep sex dirty." I think a person who truly felt no shame would not be able to enjoy that aspect of BDSM. You know you'd say, "you dirty slut" and they'd think, "whatever."

Ok, so what do you think?

 

[Pure]

Sounds good, sweet. Well said. I don't see a close link between shame and the sense of right and wrong, in a great many cases.
There is, of course, "Scarlet Letter" type shame, but as you say, that's maybe one kind, and dependent on that particular conscience.

As you say, there is shame in a rape victim, though she did no wrong, nor does she necessarily believe she did. She *does believe her value as a person/woman is reduced or eliminated

Further, thinking of the Japanese execs who quit or suicide, yes sometimes they broke the law, but other times just failed to keep the company healthy.

As you say, a sense of who you are, what makes you human, male, female, respected etc. seems sufficient to generate shame.

J.

 

[Ms_Kat]

Conscience and shame

I personally don't believe that either one necessarily follows the other.

Can a person have shame without that sense that they have violated some personal code of ethics? I believe so. The cited examples of abuse in its various forms are valid.

Can one have a conscience, violate it, and still not feel shame? I believe so. Consider the general who believes it is wrong to kill, yet still sends soldiers into battle for that very purpose. Will he feel shame? Possibly not.

Perhaps we are discussing different forms of shame. Anger, after all, is accepted to be a healthy part of human life. However, it can also reach a pathological stage where it completely colors one's perception of the world.

 

[catalina_francisco]

Maybe someone has something to add?

Catalina

 

[Private_Label]

Maybe someone has something to add?

Catalina

I always equate Shame with regret at having done the action. I promised myself a long time ago that I would never do any actions that I thought might cause regret later (long and involved family history that has led to my not seeing or talking to my father for about 25 years). I am not ashamed of any of my actions including those I have done that that have caused me embarrassment as a sub.

Embarrassment - The fact that other know how far I would go to please another person. The fact that I would disregard my own rules on what is considered appropriate behavior (in the vanilla sense) andd have others see just how much I would do sexually or otherwise to please my lover in ways that I would not do for myself.

 

[timberwolf05]

In many instances, online and in r/l, shame is referred to as an experienced state, especially, perhaps exclusively by sub/slaves. It brings to mind a conversation I had with someone a couple of years ago which unfortunately was cut short and never resumed in which the person I was speaking with believed shame was no longer existant in our contempory society. Their theory was many feel embarrassment, but mistake this, and misname it as shame, in essence a much deeper and more humiliating emotion/state than embarrassment. I am interested in hearing the perceptions of others on this...I am still processing my own thoughts on it but will contribute to the discussion in the hope I come to a more defined understanding.

Catalina

"I" cannot really answer this, since i have seldom ever been embarrassed in life,...it is just something i have not been around.
and as to shame? in this lifestyle? embarrass someone and they feel shame?
i suppose it COULD happen.
not in MY world but someone else may.

i just do not know really.

wolf

 

[mysteryinc]

In Catalina's original post she spoke of a conversation where the other thought that shame was not experienced by people in modern society. I was wondering if the tone of this conversation implied that people are no longer capable of shame in instances where they should in fact feel shame. I've heard similar opinions from my grandmother, who worries incessantly about the moral foundation of society. I wonder (apart from in extreme cases) if shame is ever the right way to feel about yourself or your actions or your situation. My personal opinion is that shame is still present in society, but people feel shame over different things and mainly values are provided externally by society. I guess what I am also wondering is in regards to people who suffer from feelings of irrational shame and self-digust which manifests itself as a social anxiety.

 

[graceanne]

I don't know about others, but I know I've felt ashamed. And if you are not in me, or feel my emotions, than how can anyone tell me it's not? I don't go around telling other people how they feel, and if someone were to come up and try to tell me how I feel I'd laugh at them, and walk away.