Does it work both ways?

[RJMasters]

Almost 7 years ago I learned of a ritual that I really enjoyed. This ritual was to be performed at the time of when Dom or Domme and the submissive decided upon a permanent relationship between them.

I am sure many of you have heard of this ritual called "Offering". There are many variations of it, some more elaborate and some short and to the point. Sometimes both do it as kind of an exchange of D/s vows if you will.

Anyways the ritual involves the submissive kneeling and then offering each part of themselves. From feet to head....to summarize they offer their heart, mind and body.

I see this as a way to formalize the commitment being made within the heart and mind of the person. I also see it as a way in which an attachment is cemented. Many submissives have told me whether they do the ritual or not, it does describe pretty much what they do normally.

Please feel free to comment about the ritual and all, but my interest lies more in wondering if it works both ways?

I understand that the above ritual is more of putting a period on maybe a 3 month sentence, so doing the opposite is not going to magically change anything, however I wonder if there is value in it, and if done in a quiet time daily for a short period of time, would not help reversing the effects within the mind of the person doing it?

To me it seems logical, but in my experience seeing relationships cemented and broken apart, often logic has nothing to do with either of them. Soooo what do you think? Does it work both ways? Could there be any value in it?

 

[catalina_francisco]

While I love ritual, I find these days my love of it is in a different place to where it was before actually having a RL 24/7 D/s relationship long term. For me, ritual only holds as much value as those who perform or take part in it assign to it, and often IME, that value is fleeting once things do not live up to the fantasy one or all had previously envisioned. The people I have seen who have shared a depth of commitment from both sides of the whip, and a deep responsibility to each other and the relationship have often been the ones who have not gone through the ritualistic kneeling and pledging scene, instead making a concious choice and giving of themselves there and then as opposed to an organised scene planned and staged for that purpose. I am not against it for those who feel it works for them, just I find so many get caught up in the fantasy and forget about the reality when times get tough...sort of like planning a grand wedding day without ever considering what comes next and how to survive the bumps. For those who do go through with the whole pledging ritual, I see no reason why it should work for the submissive and not the Dominant, but like many things in these times, it can become easy come, easy go if all it is is a ritual because that is how it is thought it should be done.

Catalina

 

[chris9]

RJ, I'm not sure I understood you correctly. Are you talking about the other way as the Dominant doing something, or as the submissive taking back themselves from the Dominant to help detach from one another gently when time has come to go separate ways?

 

[RJMasters]

RJ, I'm not sure I understood you correctly. Are you talking about the other way as the Dominant doing something, or as the submissive taking back themselves from the Dominant to help detach from one another gently when time has come to go separate ways?

Sorry for making myself unclear, I am speaking of taking back.

 

[RJMasters]

While I love ritual, I find these days my love of it is in a different place to where it was before actually having a RL 24/7 D/s relationship long term. For me, ritual only holds as much value as those who perform or take part in it assign to it, and often IME, that value is fleeting once things do not live up to the fantasy one or all had previously envisioned. The people I have seen who have shared a depth of commitment from both sides of the whip, and a deep responsibility to each other and the relationship have often been the ones who have not gone through the ritualistic kneeling and pledging scene, instead making a concious choice and giving of themselves there and then as opposed to an organised scene planned and staged for that purpose. I am not against it for those who feel it works for them, just I find so many get caught up in the fantasy and forget about the reality when times get tough...sort of like planning a grand wedding day without ever considering what comes next and how to survive the bumps. For those who do go through with the whole pledging ritual, I see no reason why it should work for the submissive and not the Dominant, but like many things in these times, it can become easy come, easy go if all it is is a ritual because that is how it is thought it should be done.

Catalina

I hear what your saying Catalina. That's why I put that part in about where those who say they never do a ritual like this, still pretty much describe doing the same thing, only on their own with no ritual.

Rituals have their palce, I guess I am using this as more of an example in how one gives themselves to another, and wondering if there is an opposite.

I know many talk about dragging baggage from one relationship to others. I often wonder if it because we don't take back what we have given.

I know its not likely to remove someone from our past. There is no magic pill or cure. But I wonder if there is value in spending a little time each day and actually take back those part of ourselves we give to others. I wonder if over time, each day it has value in reclaiming who we are.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Well, I don't know about you or anyone else for that matter, but when I give some part of myself up, I give it up.

There's no taking it back and it's all part of the learning process. Good and bad relationships (if you want to catagorize them that way... I don't) teach us all something.

Personally, I don't want to spend time "reclaiming" something that, as far as I'm concerned, is gone.

And I'm not even sure why I've wasted this time on this post, to be honest with you.

 

[RJMasters]

Well, I don't know about you or anyone else for that matter, but when I give some part of myself up, I give it up.

There's no taking it back and it's all part of the learning process. Good and bad relationships (if you want to catagorize them that way... I don't) teach us all something.

Personally, I don't want to spend time "reclaiming" something that, as far as I'm concerned, is gone.

And I'm not even sure why I've wasted this time on this post, to be honest with you.

Well I am glad you did. You made me see that sometimes when we give something, we might not be able to take it back or want it back.

Ty

 

[catalina_francisco]

I can relate to what you say RJ. I think in some circumstances there is not only an ability to take back some or all of what you gave, but a necessity to do so if only to give you a starting place from which to move forward. In those circumstances, abusive relationships being one, it is vital to do so unless you want to maintain the helpless victim role and subsequently fall into the same traps again and again. It needn't be an abusive relationship in defined therapeutic terms, but can also just be a relationship which has left you feeling drained emotionally at the least, or even one which resulted in grief through death of a partner.

While you can and are wise to learn from the experience, thus building toward finding a fulfilling outcome, taking back those parts of yourself and your esteem which form your foundations are vital to avoid the 'excess baggage' syndrome. So many people willingly carry that baggage and feel it is their right to inflict it on each subsequent partner, sort of viewing it as a badge of honour or proof of matyrdom which places them in a more special place than their peers, and with each relationship adds new dimensions to the story of suffering and sacrifice they feel is rightfully theirs to claim and wallow in.

LOL, perhaps it seems harsh and no doubt my view is coloured more than a little by the last few weeks which have confirmed what I long knew but wanted to be so different, but nevertheless, it is a common prroblem with people who move through relationships willingly or otherwise. It is so sad when you see it played out in the extremes as you realise not only has the person who has lived in their self inflicted baggage role lost their life as it could have been, but often have robbed others close to them of their happiness and peace also. It seems such a waste of life, and yet for many it is a way of life from which they will not move. Why, I wonder.....perhaps it is a matter off misguided sadism as there is definately pleasure to be had by the baggage carrier by inflicting themselves on others, and yet that pleasure comes from making others suffer in ways they are futile to change, and in creating as much of an aura of sadness and misfortune as possible. I am blessed to belong to F and be living the reality of a supportive, balanced and deeply caring relationship which I find rarely exists in today's world....he continues to amaze me with his strength, understanding and ability to provide that place of safety I never thought I would find.

Catalina

 

[Neomagalie]

.....

 

[Iron Bear]

We tend to be ritualistic creatures. Drawing from that, I suppose some sort of parting ritual could be used, depending on how important ritual is to the participants. A variation on your ceremony I am more familiar with is collaring, where the dom/me/master/mistress attaches a collar to their sub/slave as a symbolic representation of their relationship. So, by extension, if this ceremony/ritual is practiced, then these two people decide to part ways, certainly a collar removal ceremony/ritual would be logical.

Or am I just being too logical again?

 

[RJMasters]

We tend to be ritualistic creatures. Drawing from that, I suppose some sort of parting ritual could be used, depending on how important ritual is to the participants. A variation on your ceremony I am more familiar with is collaring, where the dom/me/master/mistress attaches a collar to their sub/slave as a symbolic representation of their relationship. So, by extension, if this ceremony/ritual is practiced, then these two people decide to part ways, certainly a collar removal ceremony/ritual would be logical.

Or am I just being too logical again?

Nope not at all, however...let me slide it a bit away from focusing on any of the ritual stuff, be it collar or something more elaborate.

I think as you put it, the collar comes off the relationship ends, the problem is its not over. Heck, because of the nature of the break up sometimes they don't even stick around long enough to remove the collar often leaving the submissive with no chance of closure.

It is rare that relationships end on decent terms. I would say the norm is usually bad in someway leaving a submissive to deal with it all on their own. There is usually a period of depression and sadness which is quite normal, but eventually they come to a point where they would like to put the peices back together and go on, but are at a loss as to how.

I am sure many in time learn to get through it by forgivenss, anger or avoidance. My thoughts are, when they have come to that place where they would like to move on, one thing they might possibly do is get up in the morning and take 10 minutes or so at the beginning of the day sitting quietly and visuallize and say:

My mind and thoughts are mine...I gave this away to (name) But now it is time for me to take back my mind and thoughts for me.

My heart and feelings are mine...I gave this away to (name) But now it is time for me to take back my heart and feelings for me.

My body and behaviors are mine...I gave this in pleasure and service to (name) But now it is time for me to take back my body and my behaviors for me.

Perhaps if a person did something like this for a week or maybe a month, it might help.

We give of ourselves by decision. Sometimes we don't get a choice in what others take from us, but we do have a choice in taking it back from them as it doesn't belong to them any more.

I am not suggesting any magical cure here by any stretch, but just suggesting something positive and tangible as a means to help reclaim who you are.

I like how Chris9 put it:

"the submissive taking back themselves from the Dominant to help detach from one another"

 

[RJMasters]

One of those post where I did a lot of reading, reading again, writing, delete, read, write delete and repeat all over again.

I don’t think you do ever regain the part you have given away but I do not see them gone either more like growing and living on somewhere else and differently that I may have intended.

As far as a parting ritual, I think they they may be useful especially when the parting is done not from a lack of love or caring but something else. But I don not have experience in anything that was done as a couple. On an individual basis though I feel many will have their own little parting ceremony. Removing a piece of meaningful jewelry, cutting your hair, doing for the first time something that had always been attach to the other person will often require a few thoughts, a moment taken saying goodbye to the relationship and taking a new step.

Nodding, in your last paragraph you speak of ways for closure. I think that's what this might be about. Ways to find closure and move on.

Its about letting the other person go, but it is also about getting youself back. I think the two are related and go hand in hand. I asked myself how does one get themselves back and honestly didn't have a clue, but after thinking about it, that ritual came to mind, and I wondered if maybe it was done or something like it was done in reverse, it might help. Guess that's why I started the thread to see what you all think.

 

[A Desert Rose]

RJ, You said:"... I think as you put it, the collar comes off the relationship ends, the problem is its not over. Heck, because of the nature of the break up sometimes they don't even stick around long enough to remove the collar often leaving the submissive with no chance of closure.

It is rare that relationships end on decent terms. I would say the norm is usually bad in someway leaving a submissive to deal with it all on their own. There is usually a period of depression and sadness which is quite normal, but eventually they come to a point where they would like to put the peices back together and go on, but are at a loss as to how...

I'd venture to guess that there are more Dominants who suffer from the break up than most of us realize. And I'm sure you agree with that.

We subs don't have a corner on that market.

And back on your topic... if rituals help someone recover from a break up, more power to them. I don't see that working for me. I can't get back, nor do I want back anything I've given up to another. That's not what a loving relationship is about for me. I gave it up because I wanted to. end of story.

I've never been in an abusive relationship and I've never had my self esteem violated. I can't speak to that. I can only speak to ME and MY experiences and I don't think you intended to include abuse as part of your premise, anyway.

 

[RJMasters]

I can relate to what you say RJ. I think in some circumstances there is not only an ability to take back some or all of what you gave, but a necessity to do so if only to give you a starting place from which to move forward. In those circumstances, abusive relationships being one, it is vital to do so unless you want to maintain the helpless victim role and subsequently fall into the same traps again and again. It needn't be an abusive relationship in defined therapeutic terms, but can also just be a relationship which has left you feeling drained emotionally at the least, or even one which resulted in grief through death of a partner.

While you can and are wise to learn from the experience, thus building toward finding a fulfilling outcome, taking back those parts of yourself and your esteem which form your foundations are vital to avoid the 'excess baggage' syndrome. So many people willingly carry that baggage and feel it is their right to inflict it on each subsequent partner, sort of viewing it as a badge of honour or proof of matyrdom which places them in a more special place than their peers, and with each relationship adds new dimensions to the story of suffering and sacrifice they feel is rightfully theirs to claim and wallow in.

LOL, perhaps it seems harsh and no doubt my view is coloured more than a little by the last few weeks which have confirmed what I long knew but wanted to be so different, but nevertheless, it is a common prroblem with people who move through relationships willingly or otherwise. It is so sad when you see it played out in the extremes as you realise not only has the person who has lived in their self inflicted baggage role lost their life as it could have been, but often have robbed others close to them of their happiness and peace also. It seems such a waste of life, and yet for many it is a way of life from which they will not move. Why, I wonder.....perhaps it is a matter off misguided sadism as there is definately pleasure to be had by the baggage carrier by inflicting themselves on others, and yet that pleasure comes from making others suffer in ways they are futile to change, and in creating as much of an aura of sadness and misfortune as possible. I am blessed to belong to F and be living the reality of a supportive, balanced and deeply caring relationship which I find rarely exists in today's world....he continues to amaze me with his strength, understanding and ability to provide that place of safety I never thought I would find.

Catalina

---
I think in some circumstances there is not only an ability to take back some or all of what you gave, but a necessity to do so if only to give you a starting place from which to move forward.

While you can and are wise to learn from the experience, thus building toward finding a fulfilling outcome, taking back those parts of yourself and your esteem which form your foundations are vital to avoid the 'excess baggage' syndrome.
---

Nods. I agree there are professional baggage handlers, but I also think there are those who honestly don't know how to shed the baggage. They just don't have the answers or method to do it, so they do the only thing they know how to and stuff it and go on, or they don't.

I know it took 10 years for my mom to finailly take back enough of herself. It wasn't because she enjoyed the baggage, she just had no answers or way to deal with it. And it wasn't till last saturday when we both sat down and spoke for hours and hours together that she finally told me this was the missing piece. All I did was ask her if she ever took back who she was and what she had given of herself....and she said no. I told her then its about time time to you did that. for the next few hours I listend to my mom take back the things she had given to others who misuded her and abused her. When she was done, she looked at me and said she finally found a complete peace about her past. I asked what changed? And she simply responded, I took back all the bits and pieces those people stole from me, and after all these years I now understand that I let them keep them while I keep the hurt. I let go of the hurt and took back the part of me they stole, and I feel free. (it was a kodak moment lotz of tears and stuff).

I was glad that I was able to help my mom figure out the missing piece. I just told her those people have no right any longer to hold those things of you and its time you say so and take them back.

TY Catalina for your comments and insight.

 

[RJMasters]

I'd venture to guess that there are more Dominants who suffer from the break up than most of us realize. And I'm sure you agree with that.

We subs don't have a corner on that market.

As always ADR you are a voice of reason and balance, and you are right, the sting is no less on the dominant's side.


And back on your topic... if rituals help someone recover from a break up, more power to them. I don't see that working for me. I can't get back, nor do I want back anything I've given up to another. That's not what a loving relationship is about for me. I gave it up because I wanted to. end of story.

I've never been in an abusive relationship and I've never had my self esteem violated. I can't speak to that. I can only speak to ME and MY experiences and I don't think you intended to include abuse as part of your premise, anyway.

"I've never had my self esteem violated."

In my way of thinking, you are to be commended, as you guard that which is most valuable, your self esteem.

I think its interesting how you stated that whole sentence. Seeing it side by side like that makes me see that abusive relationships are ones that do violate another's self esteem. You have the maturity or wisom to know that you alone hold the keys to your own self esteem. That is noteworthy indeed.

 

[Iron Bear]

I think as you put it, the collar comes off the relationship ends, the problem is its not over. Heck, because of the nature of the break up sometimes they don't even stick around long enough to remove the collar often leaving the submissive with no chance of closure.

It is rare that relationships end on decent terms. I would say the norm is usually bad in someway leaving a submissive to deal with it all on their own. There is usually a period of depression and sadness which is quite normal, but eventually they come to a point where they would like to put the peices back together and go on, but are at a loss as to how.

Actually, I believe that's pretty much what I was trying to say. I know I have a tendency to over-elaborate.

Certainly, the end of any relationship is painful. In a dom/sub relationship, the pain may be worse, considering the trust/surrender aspect for the sub. I am not saying the dom doesn't feel pain, by the way. But, I think some sort of reclaiming of the sub's ownership of self would help, just as you were saying.

 

[BeachGurl2]

RJ, I think you have a very good point with what you're asking, but part of me is wondering where the question came from for you as a dom. Just curious there, I guess.

I left an abusive marriage 2 1/2 years ago. Took 6 months after making my decision to actually walk out the door, but that was just logistics - not uprooting kids in the middle of a school year, getting enough money together, etc. I was not in a physically abusive marriage, but an emotionally abusive/overly controlling one. My divorce took another 18 months before it was final.

It took 2 years of self-exploration - including a lot of self talk - before I was ready to consider possibly dating again. I've always known I was submissive, even before I had the terminology for it, and that scared me. I was so afraid of choosing poorly again. Yes, I had chosen someone who was naturally dominant, but in a very, very bad way. How could I trust myself to choose better next time?

So I worked on myself - learned the ways that I can take control and feel comfortable doing that. And it took a long time to let the relationship completely go and stop beating myself up for subjecting my kids to it. And once I did all the self-talk and analyzing and deciding who I am again, I knew I would be okay because, while I submit, I still hold the cards. I CHOOSE to submit. And I choose TO WHOM I will submit. And I can decide to NO LONGER submit if I no longer feel comfortable in the relationship. Once I got to that point, I knew that I was healed. Yes, the baggage is still there. A raised voice or expression of excessive anger or other controlling behaviors outside my safe zone can upset me. But I have a better handle on it now than I ever have.

And so when I finally realized that I was healed, I got a tattoo as a celebration. I call it my freedom tattoo. So I guess that was ritualistic in a way. (My students all called it my hippie tattoo, since it is a bit hippie-ish) The sunburst represents a new chapter in my life and the peace sign obviously represents the peace I've found in my life. My now-18yo daughter designed it for me and went with me when I got it. Every time someone comments on it, it makes me think of what it means in my life. And it makes me feel good.

I probably didn't help answer your question any better than anyone else, maybe muddied the water a bit more for you, but it was kind of nice for me to revisit that today - had to deal with the ex earlier.

 

[RJMasters]

RJ, I think you have a very good point with what you're asking, but part of me is wondering where the question came from for you as a dom. Just curious there, I guess.

I left an abusive marriage 2 1/2 years ago. Took 6 months after making my decision to actually walk out the door, but that was just logistics - not uprooting kids in the middle of a school year, getting enough money together, etc. I was not in a physically abusive marriage, but an emotionally abusive/overly controlling one. My divorce took another 18 months before it was final.

It took 2 years of self-exploration - including a lot of self talk - before I was ready to consider possibly dating again. I've always known I was submissive, even before I had the terminology for it, and that scared me. I was so afraid of choosing poorly again. Yes, I had chosen someone who was naturally dominant, but in a very, very bad way. How could I trust myself to choose better next time?

So I worked on myself - learned the ways that I can take control and feel comfortable doing that. And it took a long time to let the relationship completely go and stop beating myself up for subjecting my kids to it. And once I did all the self-talk and analyzing and deciding who I am again, I knew I would be okay because, while I submit, I still hold the cards. I CHOOSE to submit. And I choose TO WHOM I will submit. And I can decide to NO LONGER submit if I no longer feel comfortable in the relationship. Once I got to that point, I knew that I was healed. Yes, the baggage is still there. A raised voice or expression of excessive anger or other controlling behaviors outside my safe zone can upset me. But I have a better handle on it now than I ever have.

And so when I finally realized that I was healed, I got a tattoo as a celebration. I call it my freedom tattoo. So I guess that was ritualistic in a way. (My students all called it my hippie tattoo, since it is a bit hippie-ish) The sunburst represents a new chapter in my life and the peace sign obviously represents the peace I've found in my life. My now-18yo daughter designed it for me and went with me when I got it. Every time someone comments on it, it makes me think of what it means in my life. And it makes me feel good.

I probably didn't help answer your question any better than anyone else, maybe muddied the water a bit more for you, but it was kind of nice for me to revisit that today - had to deal with the ex earlier.

First I would like to say, I am glad that you got out and survived an abusive relationship.

As to your first question, how as a Dom would I come to ask such a question.

Well the truth is from several convergences of similar problems all hitting at the same time in my life over the last few weeks.

Diffferent situations, such as the one I mentioned above in my response to Catalina concerning my mother. My sister who is coming to visit for the holidays is struggling with the same issues only she is stuggling so badly her health is at risk. Then there are friends who I care alot about who are struggling(both Doms and submissives). My interest lies in one wanting to help the best I can. For a long time when things like this would happen, I had no real answers or advice. Sure I could offer a hug or just be there to listen, and sometimes that's all that is needed, but I have quietly searched for an answer, and think this might be a part of it.

My other interest of course is because I need to know, need to understand for me, when i accept another's submission, the responsibility and care that comes with that. Not just at the beginning or middle, but also at the end of a relationship should it come. Of course if it ends badly, one is not in the position to be of much help, however if seperation come on consentual terms, knowing this could be a real encouragement.

I think mostly people in times of need turn to people they trust. When a family member or friend comes to me, I want to be there for them and help them the best I can. When they express they are ready and start looking for answers, I would like to be able to give them some tangible help and guidance to put the pieces back together. Because that just part of who I am Dominant or otherwise.

I hope that answered your question.

 

[AngelicAssassin]

Hey Cowboy

Come into the Silly Limits thread on the Café side re exercise.

 

[Marquis]

Wow, awesome thread, and excellent posts all around.

I'm not really in a place, emotionally, right now to make my comments, but I shall return.

 

[foxinsox]

I was released long before I was able to put away what was once my collar. I didn't wear it after I was released, of course, but it was looped around my bedpost for a while, then migrated to my bedside drawer, then over to a drawer in my tallboy, and now it's tucked away out of sight.

Although I've tried on three occasions over an extended period of time, I've not yet been able to throw it into the watery grave I have planned for it; perhaps I never will. To me, it was always more than just a bit of leather and even though I no longer seek all things D/s, I still remember what it once meant to me.

I believe there are some things there are no real short-cuts for, and grief is one of them. I don't think any parting ritual would have made things easier for me when things were at rock-bottom and truly awful. That doesn't mean you wallow, but it does mean you learn to crack a can of toughen-up, deal, and move on.

Besides, I agree with Rosie Posie. What I give, I give freely and with no expectation of return.

It's all part of the rich tapestry of life, eh?