Does craft matter?

[oggbashan]

I would prefer a well-written story but I have found some stories with awful writing skills but the ability to tell a good story.

The story could be so much better if presented well, but if it works as it is - the writer has craft as a storyteller. The techniques of writing can be taught. Being able to tell a story can elude many.

 

[Blind_Justice]

The competent use of grammar and vocabulary matters. No matter how good the idea, if the author decided punctuation was for pussies and vocabulary was taken from a Babyonian thesaurus, the story will be hell to read.

Having said that, once a certain level of fluency and competence is achieved, I'm fine. I don't need elaborately crafted masterpieces with layers of meaning nestled in every paragraphs. Give me a straight narrative which grips me by the heartstrings (or the balls, depending on topic) and I'm good. Maybe a few good puns for spice, but that's okay. Many so-called classics praised for their wordsmithery are, to me, fucking boring. Anything Tolstoi, for example. I mean, I am wordy sometimes, but that guy? Gimme a break (and the abridged version, please!)

 

[stickygirl]

I can only go on the widely circulated reports that a certain multi-millionaire author's first couple of books contain dreadful examples of craft, if we mean grammar. It's reported her later books were edited to remove the worst of the errors.

But to go back to Sam's initial point about craft, Rowling's books are well crafted in terms of characterisations and plot - she's simply crap at grammar. Thats the only thing what I do have in commons with her.

 

[yukonnights]

Well, that kicked off a lively discussion, didn’t it?

I probably should have mentioned that when the woman talked about craft, she wasn’t talking about sticking to conventional grammar or avoiding typos and spelling errors. A copy editor can sort out those things. She was talking about character building, word choice, phrase-making, and crafting sentences that are a joy to read, sentences that sing in the reader’s brain.

Having had a chance to think about it – and sleep on it – I think I am going to come down on the side of those of you who have, in effect, said: here at Lit, craft is nice when it happens but it’s by no means essential.

And now I’ll go and finish my sleep.

I tried to respond to your question yesterday, but was a little unclear by the use of "craft". This fuller explanation helps. Your original question was; 'Does craft matter on a site like LIT?'

I'll go along with your conclusion that for Lit as an entity, it's not essential. It would probably keep chugging along with "stroke stories" just fine.

However, I think whether or not "craft" is important to individual writers probably varies a lot. For me it is very important. I not only want my work to be technically as correct as I can make it — I want my words to pull the reader in and to be immersed into story. The erotic scenes are just another part of the story — a natural part of human experience — rarely the main focus of the story. I try to focus on the deeper feelings of love and people's quests to find it. As the woman you were listening to said; '... crafting sentences that are a joy to read, sentences that sing in the reader’s brain.'

It seems to me that the majority of authors that hangout on the AH share these loftier goals for their writing.

 

[44chicken]

I would prefer a well-written story but I have found some stories with awful writing skills but the ability to tell a good story.

The story could be so much better if presented well, but if it works as it is - the writer has craft as a storyteller. The techniques of writing can be taught. Being able to tell a story can elude many.

Agreed. As for whether craft matters to readers on this site, I'd say it does. And by craft I mean everything from spelling to characters and plot. On the whole it seems to me that voting on this site is a pretty reliable guide to the overall quality of a story. Some submissions tilt more towards story-telling, falling short on the technical aspects. Others go the other way. The highest rated do both well.

The rating scale is kind of skewed though. At least for me, the meaningful range is 4 - 5.

 

[jack30341]

What does the question mean? You have to be clear about what your question means before it can be answered.

When you ask if craft matters, are you asking an empirical question: does craft matter to the thousands and thousands of Literotica readers who read stories and vote on them?

Or are you asking a subjective question: does craft matter in a sense beyond what people in fact want? Are you seeking an aesthetic judgment rather than an empirical finding?

For me personally, I think craft matters a great deal. I believe almost any subject can be turned into a good story by a writer whose craftsmanship is skillful enough. I appreciate stories that are well-written.

As for Literotica readers: Yes, craft matters, somewhat. I basically agree with KeithD on this. Many Literotica readers don't give a hoot about good grammar, or spelling, or any other formal traits that are usually thought of as characterizing "good" writing. They come here for their erotic fix. Formal writing skill doesn't do much to satisfy their need. So as a consequence you see a lot of stories with high view and score numbers that, if you care about good English, make you scratch your head.

But a lot of readers DO care about craft, and you see that reflected in the scores and numbers, too, if you look carefully enough. Most of the stories that win contests, for instance, are at least pretty good, in terms of craft, and some are far superior to the norm.

I agree with this and with KeithD.

I would add one other thing.

Hopefully, there are times when craft empowers the story so much that the erotic part is wilder. More intense.

If I read a story where the set-up is so good that I'm excited to get to where they're going as much as the characters are, then that's a good read.

I think craft helps make that happen.

 

[PeytonMirabelle]

Maybe

I don't know. I read a story this evening that had beautifully-crafted language, with evocative imagery, that I had no trouble imagining.

It was also dull as dishwater. No tension, no excitement, no real stakes. Nobody in the tale had to overcome any real hurdles--and for being in the Romance category, it was surprisingly void of emotion.

I guess for me, I wouldn't say the craft is more important than any other part of building a story. It's a great tool but just one of several in the toolbox.

 

[KeithD]

Storytelling is one of the crafts.

 

[SisterJezabel]

Storytelling is one of the crafts.

Very much so. Especially with the less is more concept. So many stories try and use dialogue during sex that adds absolutely nothing:

"Ooooh, yeeeeeeesssssss, baaaaabbbbbbyyyyyyy, wooooooow, I'm cummmmmmmmmmmmmmmiiiiiiiiinnnnnng"

Rather than:

Listening to her moans he could tell she was close...

 

[KeithD]

Very much so. Especially with the less is more concept. So many stories try and use dialogue during sex that adds absolutely nothing:

"Ooooh, yeeeeeeesssssss, baaaaabbbbbbyyyyyyy, wooooooow, I'm cummmmmmmmmmmmmmmiiiiiiiiinnnnnng"

Rather than:

Listening to her moans he could tell she was close...

You had me coming at "Ooooh, Yeeeeeeessssss."

 

[PeytonMirabelle]

Storytelling is one of the crafts.

I agree, 100%.

However, I got the gist from the early posts that "craft" in this discussion was shorthand for well-constructed sentences, wide vocabulary, and an artful turn of phrase, instead of the overall art of writing a story.

Don't mind me, I probably read too much into it. This is why I shouldn't post after my bedtime.

 

[Athalia]

Craft always matters. It doesn't have to be "arty" craft that brings delight to the reader through word usage or characters or whatever. But it has to be the craft that makes the reading easier, and gets the readers where they want to go with a minimum of struggle.

One example of the lack of craft is the infamous "wall of text," created by the writer who scorns paragraph breaks. Another is the sin of misspellings to the point of the reader not being able to make out what the word the writer is trying to use. A third is writing so sloppy that the reader can'f figure out who is doing what to whom.

All these errors are fatal to the appreciation of the piece. And I've seen 'em all on various sites that purvey smut. I think Laurel has kept the bar higher here than other moderators have done on their sites.

 

[SimonDoom]

I want to second, or third, what some others have said: being able to create a good character, or a good plot, is every bit as much part of the "craft" of writing a story as being good with words and turns of phrase.

I'm a big fan of the work of Vladimir Nabokov. He's a genius with words. But I often get the feeling after reading his books that he doesn't understand people -- doesn't know what makes them tick, and doesn't fully empathize with them. They're artificial in a very interesting way, but still artificial. There are authors less skilled with words than he who nevertheless are better at other aspects of the craft -- creating and writing about characters that seem human. That's craft, too.

For that matter, I think there's a certain craft involved in writing a really hot, simple stroke story. Some are better than others. Good craftsmanship is a malleable concept.

 

[oggbashan]

I agree, 100%.

However, I got the gist from the early posts that "craft" in this discussion was shorthand for well-constructed sentences, wide vocabulary, and an artful turn of phrase, instead of the overall art of writing a story.

Don't mind me, I probably read too much into it. This is why I shouldn't post after my bedtime.

The technical aspects of the writing could be perfect, but without storytelling, it would be boring.

 

[SamScribble]

The technical aspects of the writing could be perfect, but without storytelling, it would be boring.

That said, stories don't have to be long or complicated.

One of my memories of primary school was the start-the-week ritual known as ‘the morning talk’.

I assume that the objective of the morning talk was to help build social confidence among the five, six, and seven-year-olds – a sort of Toastmasters for pipsqueaks.

I seem to recall that many of the morning talks were rambling accounts of nothingness. ‘Good morning, class. Here’s a totally unfocused account of some of the not-very-interesting things that I did over the weekend.’ But two talks, in particular, I recall as accounts of great concision.

The first was a talk given by six-year-old Anthony, a scruffy fellow, even by our rather relaxed immediate post-war rural standards.

Reporting on his family’s November Fifth celebrations, Anthony raced to the front of the class and announced: ‘Me had a Jumping Jack; me let it off; and it jumped on me yud.’ And then, satisfied with his ten seconds in the spotlight, he returned to his seat.

‘I, Anthony. I had a Jumping Jack,’ the teacher suggested.

‘No, me, Miss. You wasn’t there.’

The other was an account of Christopher’s experience at a birthday party.

‘I was at the birthday party,’ Christopher said. ‘I got sweet with Elizabeth. And she thumped me. It didn’t ‘alf ‘urt.’

‘And what did you learn, Christopher?’ our teacher asked.

‘I learned that you can’t never tell with girls, Miss.’

 

[Fervid]

I have started reading more than a few Lit stories built on ‘a good idea’. Sometimes, several good ideas. But I have seldom made it to the second page.

This got me thinking: does craft matter on a site like Lit?

Discuss.

It does to me! In fact, I can’t even buy a regular book anymore without reading the first paragraph to check the writing style. I suppose this comes from having written a lot of exposition.

My opinion that craft matters even here is based on my own experience with scores. I think my sex scenes are weak and variable, but my scores all fall in a very narrow range of about 0.2, except for the three stories where I tried to get out of my normal writing style.

I suppose different readers will weight different aspects of a story differently, but in my case, steady spelling and grammar seem to carry the day when my so-called fiction writing abilities do not.

 

[jehoram]

I'd say that craft matters, and I define it as "the art of getting the readers where you want them to be and where they want to be in the easiest way possible."

One reader may like to take the long route, stopping by artfully crafted descriptions and internal murmurings along the way before arriving at a destination. Another reader wants to hop on the freeway and get there fast. You really can't please both of them, so you pick one or the other and write your story that way.

Storytelling is, as KiethD said, a craft. It's another craft in the author's toolbox, along with spelling and grammar and formatting and such. They're all essential in one way or another, but you shape the end result by using them differently.

 

[Erlikkhan]

Somebody needs to tell me what craft means. Neither Borges nor Rushdie ever won the Nobel Prize in Literature, but Bob Dylan did. I guess he had better craft. And why the fuck are people willing to pay millions for a Pollock when all he did was splatter paint on a canvas? Who decides what good craft is anyway? When it comes to fuck stories, good craft just may be the writer whose stories result in the most ejaculations and orgasms. Just don't misspell fuck, cum, cunt, cock, pussy, tits or asshole. It ruins the whole mood.

 

[Athalia]

I'd say that craft matters, and I define it as "the art of getting the readers where you want them to be and where they want to be in the easiest way possible."

That's what I said back up in my post of the 13th, I thought. I believe we're thinking alike here.

Artistic skill involves making a beautiful chair. Craftsmanship involves making a chair that is actually comfortable to sit on .. the right height, rounded edges, the proper amount of cushioning ...even if doesn't display the artistry of a carved leg or a beautiful finish that you might find in a museum piece.

In other words, it comes down to how it works for the reader.

 

[eroticstoryspinner]

Giving a story life is what makes a writer. Sentence structure and grammar are guidelines. Know when and how to use them are important but most of the time ignoring them works better. Remember who your audience is. Listen to how people speak. Not very grammatical in most cases.

That's what I said back up in my post of the 13th, I thought. I believe we're thinking alike here.

Artistic skill involves making a beautiful chair. Craftsmanship involves making a chair that is actually comfortable to sit on .. the right height, rounded edges, the proper amount of cushioning ...even if doesn't display the artistry of a carved leg or a beautiful finish that you might find in a museum piece.

In other words, it comes down to how it works for the reader.

These two comments pretty much sums it up for me. I consider myself a storyteller first. I tell stories that i hope people will like and in a perfect world , pay me for, or in the LIT context leave positive feedback. I doubt that I will ever write museum pieces. If i write stories that people enjoy, then i have done my job.

 

[gordo12]

A recent comment:

"Anonymous
Well written
Unlike so many stories posted on this site, language, grammar, spelling, and punctuaion did not jump ugly and get in the way of storytelling. The craft is smooth and effective. That is appreciated by this reader.

An area for improvement: a little detail up front, rather than slowly dribbling out the nature of the "stores". Why not simply identify them as coffee shops? Yes, it eventually became clear.

Overall, this was a pleasure to read.

Thanks"

So craft does matter to them. But I can go back a couple of years and see the same well-written comments on stories I now know weren't well written at all.

My assumption is that authors are operating at a far higher level than the readers reading them. So they think it matters, but the vast majority of readers aren't knowledgeable enough to actually judge it.

 

[SamScribble]

My assumption is that authors are operating at a far higher level than the readers reading them. So they think it matters, but the vast majority of readers aren't knowledgeable enough to actually judge it.

One of my many now-departed friends was a photographer. A damned good photographer. Asked to give a chat to a bunch of would-be-photographer art students, he told them:

‘If you are going to do something every day of your life, you may as well try to do it as well as you possibly can. The people who look at your photographs might not be able to tell the difference between a hit and a miss, but you will know. And there are quite enough people in this world who will disappoint you without you doing it to yourself.’

 

[Athalia]

One of my many now-departed friends was a photographer. A damned good photographer. Asked to give a chat to a bunch of would-be-photographer art students, he told them:

‘If you are going to do something every day of your life, you may as well try to do it as well as you possibly can. The people who look at your photographs might not be able to tell the difference between a hit and a miss, but you will know. And there are quite enough people in this world who will disappoint you without you doing it to yourself.’

That's good advice. And apt considering your sig line: "‘Writing is the ultimate decision-making experience. Every paragraph, every sentence, every word, is a decision.’ –

So you might as well make the best decisions you can on each frame or each word or each chord, depending on what you create. But it's also important not to obsess on getting the exactly right frame or word or chord when that decision-making becomes an obstacle to success, or even to completion.

 

[MColton84]

because good writing craft stems from good education, that is not something to which every creative person may have access.

Ideas and inspirational thinking are always more important. A good editor can always go through a piece and correct the 'craft', but it doesn't follow that they can come up with the ideas.

I am a poorly educated man, however, within this dense skull dwells a bright creative spark. I have written stories that are sloppily written but were well received. Since then I have greatly improved in my grammar and spelling. I believe that good writing craft does matter, but it is not the core of a story. Craft can be learned, molded, and refined, but creativity is what makes a story memorable in all the right ways. No one should want to read a story that sounds like it was written by your 12 year old cousin. Yes, the same one who called because he got locked in the house. Nonetheless, I am always drawn to the premise of the story before I can even consider the craft in which it is written.

 

[MColton84]

Speaking as a retired teacher, being well-educated stems mostly from the student's desire to learn, not the teacher's ability to teach. You can acquire a solid education completely on your own without being in a formal education setting. I think most of what I have learned has been outside structured classrooms. In fact, I think the typical high school English class is the best place to take students' love of reading and writing and beat it out of them.

I couldn't agree with you more. I hold no one aside from myself accountable for the gaps in my education. I do currently attend night classes, mostly online now to strengthen my skills. I have a great deal of respect for teachers and would say that only the individual can decide that it is too late to make such changes.