Does craft matter?

[SamScribble]

Last night I listened to a talk by a woman who is a successful novelist, short-story writer, and creative writing teacher. The crux of her talk, her argument, was that the skilled use of language – craft, if you like – is a far more powerful ally for writers than ideas or feelings. As she made her case, I found myself nodding.

I have started reading more than a few Lit stories built on ‘a good idea’. Sometimes, several good ideas. But I have seldom made it to the second page. The idea has been good, clever, and, to a degree, original; but the writing has been abysmal. And yet several of these stories sport little red Hs.

This got me thinking: does craft matter on a site like Lit?

Discuss.

 

[ElectricBlue]

Yes, craft matters.

But the philistines won't recognise it, and will continue to work down to the lowest common denominator.

A perfectly turned sentence is like a single dimple on a pretty girl's smile - all that is really necessary .

 

[TxRad]

Giving a story life is what makes a writer. Sentence structure and grammar are guidelines. Know when and how to use them are important but most of the time ignoring them works better. Remember who your audience is. Listen to how people speak. Not very grammatical in most cases.

 

[KeithD]

Craft matters to some among the readership at Literotica. It doesn't matter to many readers here, though. It matters to me in my own writing (and even stroker porn can be written with craft emphasis). It doesn't matter to me in what others want to write or read here, though.

 

[Handley_Page]

Last night I listened to a talk by a woman who is a successful novelist, short-story writer, and creative writing teacher. The crux of her talk, her argument, was that the skilled use of language – craft, if you like – is a far more powerful ally for writers than ideas or feelings. As she made her case, I found myself nodding.

I have started reading more than a few Lit stories built on ‘a good idea’. Sometimes, several good ideas. But I have seldom made it to the second page. The idea has been good, clever, and, to a degree, original; but the writing has been abysmal. And yet several of these stories sport little red Hs.

This got me thinking: does craft matter on a site like Lit?

Discuss.

Yes, I think it does.

 

[Omenainen]

I think craft matters, but in smut I hope it doesn’t matter too much. Being a non-native there are sides to the craft that are forever out of my reach, so I have to lean on the ideas and feelings and hope it’s enough. Sure, I could write in my own language, but then I’d have no publishing platform and thus no audience. It doesn’t matter how crafty I am if nobody gets to read it.

So...on this site there are both readers and writers that come from various cultures and languages and have different goals. That makes craft matter less here than in some non-erotic story sites, I would think.

 

[SimonDoom]

What does the question mean? You have to be clear about what your question means before it can be answered.

When you ask if craft matters, are you asking an empirical question: does craft matter to the thousands and thousands of Literotica readers who read stories and vote on them?

Or are you asking a subjective question: does craft matter in a sense beyond what people in fact want? Are you seeking an aesthetic judgment rather than an empirical finding?

For me personally, I think craft matters a great deal. I believe almost any subject can be turned into a good story by a writer whose craftsmanship is skillful enough. I appreciate stories that are well-written.

As for Literotica readers: Yes, craft matters, somewhat. I basically agree with KeithD on this. Many Literotica readers don't give a hoot about good grammar, or spelling, or any other formal traits that are usually thought of as characterizing "good" writing. They come here for their erotic fix. Formal writing skill doesn't do much to satisfy their need. So as a consequence you see a lot of stories with high view and score numbers that, if you care about good English, make you scratch your head.

But a lot of readers DO care about craft, and you see that reflected in the scores and numbers, too, if you look carefully enough. Most of the stories that win contests, for instance, are at least pretty good, in terms of craft, and some are far superior to the norm.

 

[yowser]

I too miss craft, but think that EB is correct in his assessment: operative phrase 'lowest common denominator.'

It is rare here, and perhaps thus especially satisfying, to find an imaginative, well constructed tale.

But they exist, and for me Lit follows the trajectory of cinema. Once upon a time film felt like an art form, and directors (mostly non-US, but plenty of exceptions) would produce beautiful, thoughtful, complex works that didn't depend on exploding helicopters and non-stop mayhem to make a good story. I don't demand or expect cerebral films (although those are delicious) just intelligent ones, and those are rare gemstones these days.

Sometimes it seems like everyone in the world thinks that writing about something as simple and immediate as sex ought to be easy, but it is perhaps one of the more challenging genres for all manner of reasons. Lit gets the predictable results, and in many ways I am glad it exists for many new or experimenting writers to have a venue.

But how I love a good erotic tale....

 

[SimonDoom]

I too miss craft, but think that EB is correct in his assessment: operative phrase 'lowest common denominator.'

It is rare here, and perhaps thus especially satisfying, to find an imaginative, well constructed tale.

But they exist, and for me Lit follows the trajectory of cinema. Once upon a time film felt like an art form, and directors (mostly non-US, but plenty of exceptions) would produce beautiful, thoughtful, complex works that didn't depend on exploding helicopters and non-stop mayhem to make a good story. I don't demand or expect cerebral films (although those are delicious) just intelligent ones, and those are rare gemstones these days.

Sometimes it seems like everyone in the world thinks that writing about something as simple and immediate as sex ought to be easy, but it is perhaps one of the more challenging genres for all manner of reasons. Lit gets the predictable results, and in many ways I am glad it exists for many new or experimenting writers to have a venue.

But how I love a good erotic tale....

Agree that exceptional artfulness is the exception, but if you are suggesting that Literotica has degenerated toward the lowest common denominator over time, I disagree. There are plenty of skilled writers here. There is a mix of artful and inartful, just as there was 20 years ago. There is great variety. There's something for almost every taste. You just have to look for it.

 

[stickygirl]

Last night I listened to a talk by a woman who is a successful novelist, short-story writer, and creative writing teacher. The crux of her talk, her argument, was that the skilled use of language – craft, if you like – is a far more powerful ally for writers than ideas or feelings. As she made her case, I found myself nodding.

I have started reading more than a few Lit stories built on ‘a good idea’. Sometimes, several good ideas. But I have seldom made it to the second page. The idea has been good, clever, and, to a degree, original; but the writing has been abysmal. And yet several of these stories sport little red Hs.

This got me thinking: does craft matter on a site like Lit?

Discuss.

Perhaps the speaker has a talent for good ideas and so takes them for granted? It smacks of elitism to me, because good writing craft stems from good education, that is not something to which every creative person may have access.

Ideas and inspirational thinking are always more important. A good editor can always go through a piece and correct the 'craft', but it doesn't follow that they can come up with the ideas.

Does it matter on Lit? Apparently not.

 

[horrorotic]

Giving a story life is what makes a writer. Sentence structure and grammar are guidelines. Know when and how to use them are important but most of the time ignoring them works better. Remember who your audience is. Listen to how people speak. Not very grammatical in most cases.

This is how I feel as a reader. Don't get me wrong, very bad grammar and spelling can kill a story, but as long as its readable I'm more into how the story is told. I like people who write the way people speak, it puts you in the story a bit more and has a comfort to it.

The writers who push style hard at others come across as pretentious to me. At least if we're talking fiction. Reading a story should be fun and engaging, not look how clever I think I am.

 

[SimonDoom]

To respond more specifically to SamScribble's original post: I don't quite agree. The skilful use of language is just part of writing well. Plotting, character development, rendering of feelings and emotions, handling motivation -- these are all parts of the craft of writing that can't be strictly encompassed in the way language is used. There are authors who are great with words who don't understand people. Being able to put a story together and understanding human motivation is every bit as important as one's mastery of words, and I think that's particularly true with an erotic story.

 

[Rustyoznail]

It matters to me. Both at work and here, I craft every word to make sure it conveys exactly what I want to express.

And in both places, people seem to appreciate the care I take.

 

[Voboy]

Some readers want craft. Some do not.

That's the only real answer.

The beauty of Lit is that, with VERY few exceptions, your work WILL find a readership here. Eventually. If craft matters to you (and it does to me, as both a reader and a writer), you can get plenty of red Hs. If it doesn't, as the OP points out, you can get plenty of red Hs.

Vive la difference.

 

[yowser]

Agree that exceptional artfulness is the exception, but if you are suggesting that Literotica has degenerated toward the lowest common denominator over time, I disagree. There are plenty of skilled writers here. There is a mix of artful and inartful, just as there was 20 years ago. There is great variety. There's something for almost every taste. You just have to look for it.

Thanks and good point. I wasn't very clear. I don't think Lit has degenerated (although many of the best stories do come from the early days) more that aesthetic taste in a generic sense has devolved. There's plenty of talent here in the author realm, but an even greater increase in numbers of non-discerning readers. And it is a reader site, not an author site.

I fear for the erosion of nuance and attention span, a declination which I think social media has abetted.

 

[KeithD]

I don't read stories here, but from my own file I can observe that my "more stroker" stories generally obtain higher ratings, more views, and more comments at Literotica than my "more literary" works do. That doesn't influence me to write more one way or the other. Each story follows its own natural leanings. But that is a truth I can attest to in my voluminous story file here.

 

[NotWise]

Perhaps the speaker has a talent for good ideas and so takes them for granted? It smacks of elitism to me, because good writing craft stems from good education, that is not something to which every creative person may have access.

Ideas and inspirational thinking are always more important. A good editor can always go through a piece and correct the 'craft', but it doesn't follow that they can come up with the ideas.

Does it matter on Lit? Apparently not.

Or maybe the speaker didn't have or understand creative talent and so attributed any success to technique.

Maybe it's obvious, but erotic content is a huge thing here. There's a craft to writing erotic content that I may not have. Maybe it isn't a normal writing skill, so well-crafted erotica may not seem to be well-crafted when compared to non-erotic writing. The standards are different.

I agree with stickygirl. Creativity, good characters and a good story are more important than technical skill. Besides, if craft is lacking then a good editor (hard to come by here) can go a long way to providing it.

Craft isn't unimportant at Lit, but we're not writing for the literary review. A lot of our readers wouldn't recognize craft if they saw it. Despite that, I think a well-crafted story will affect readers who don't necessarily recognize craft, and some readers do appreciate it. That probably does make a difference in scores and in contest standings, but it would be hard to prove because erotic content, a good story and good characters are so important.

I worry over the craft in my writing far more than I expect any of my readers to notice.

 

[ChasPHX]

Good topic, interesting responses.

I've been spending some time the last couple of weeks researching some paid platforms, wondering if I should try to get in on the action. I've only grazed the surface, but in my travels so far - sample pages from Amazon, Smashwords, and some chapters from the mobile reading app Radish, I've yet to find an erotica story that matches the top quality work on this site.

There's no question there is a lot of crap here, but the best stuff on this site really is the best stuff out there, at least that I've seen.

So if you're looking for a more positive angle from which to judge the stories here, take a look around the self publishing landscape.

This is not at all meant to paint the paid platforms as being all crap, all I'm saying is, the good stuff has so far eluded me. At least on this site, I know it's here and how to find it.

Would be interested to hear from others if they have places they go for more well-crafted erotica than what's on this site.

 

[NotWise]

There's no question there is a lot of crap here, but the best stuff on this site really is the best stuff out there, at least that I've seen.

That's probably why our stories are constantly ripped off. The best of what you've seen elsewhere may have come from here.

 

[ChasPHX]

That's probably why our stories are constantly ripped off. The best of what you've seen elsewhere may have come from here.

Now that you mention it I did come across that. There's a low rent platform called Inkitt and someone had swiped a collection of Lit stories and was actually advertising them as such. Saying that all credit goes to the authors, as if that somehow made up for the fact that they had stolen them and were conceivably profiting from them behind the authors' backs. I confronted the person who was selling the stories in the comment section, and then uninstalled the app.

 

[SisterJezabel]

Judging by the number of comments I get on my misuse of pronouns it matters to some a great deal. I think if you are writing 1-3;000 words that are designed to excite a reader as if they were watching a porn clip then the craft matters much less than if you write 15,000+ words that build characters and plot, even if there are large passages of erotica.

 

[SamScribble]

Well, that kicked off a lively discussion, didn’t it?

I probably should have mentioned that when the woman talked about craft, she wasn’t talking about sticking to conventional grammar or avoiding typos and spelling errors. A copy editor can sort out those things. She was talking about character building, word choice, phrase-making, and crafting sentences that are a joy to read, sentences that sing in the reader’s brain.

Having had a chance to think about it – and sleep on it – I think I am going to come down on the side of those of you who have, in effect, said: here at Lit, craft is nice when it happens but it’s by no means essential.

And now I’ll go and finish my sleep.

 

[HeyAll]

I look at it like this:

There are tv shows with bland visuals that are big hits because people love the plots and characters.

On the flipside, there are beautiful tv shows with low ratings because they're boring.


That's how I look at writing. Craft is the beauty. But without the right substance, it's forgettable.

 

[PennameWombat]

Well, that kicked off a lively discussion, didn’t it?

I probably should have mentioned that when the woman talked about craft, she wasn’t talking about sticking to conventional grammar or avoiding typos and spelling errors. A copy editor can sort out those things. She was talking about character building, word choice, phrase-making, and crafting sentences that are a joy to read, sentences that sing in the reader’s brain.

Having had a chance to think about it – and sleep on it – I think I am going to come down on the side of those of you who have, in effect, said: here at Lit, craft is nice when it happens but it’s by no means essential.

And now I’ll go and finish my sleep.

I went away and thought a bit on whether to contribute to this thread or not but a new comment on my Winter Holidays entry helped me decide. I don’t want to claim that I “have craft” or however we want to phrase it. But.

The comment said the reader took a bit to get into my world (it’s a SF&F story, set in a future of humanity’s galactic expansion) but they did and enjoyed the story, and highlighted a scene from the first Lit page. It’s 10 Lit pages in total and the first explicit sex isn’t until page 5. And the second (and last) explicit scene is on page 8. There are erotic sections other than those, but nothing that would be beyond norms in any sort of writing.

So something’s keeping at least a few people reading even if I’m quite certain I won’t be winning the contest.

On the other hand, my entry for this year’s Nude Day was something of a fuck-fest pretty well beginning to end but I hope at least a few people also picked up the story in there. But the story was there mainly to just hang the exhibitionism, voyeurism and rampant public sex onto. My Summer Lovin’ entry was somewhere between, plenty of sex but an attempt at a very defined story as well.

 

[SexyShel]

Here is my take on it, from a basis of knowing I'll never be more than average in the "craft". I'm sure UK readers will know both the people I talk about, but other readers should look up the films I reference.

In the UK we have the Queen. Elizabeth Windsor. Obviously speaks perfect English and I'll wager she would write perfect English also.

We also have a comedy actress called Barbara Windsor. She is a native Cockney, which means born and bred in London, she was born in 1937, so a real old fashioned Cockney. Barbara's accent is full of dropped "H"s and many other dialect words, including rhyming slang. So you could imagine her writing would reflect this. Barbara was in loads of "Carry-on" movies in the UK, which are bawdy, but not porno movies. Have a look at "Carry-on Camping" to see her at her best.

Now, if someone was telling me a porno story, Barbara would be the one I'd want to do it. Her accent, her giggles, her general naughtiness as she speaks would be way better than the Queens perfect delivery.

Why should writing not reflect the storytelling ?