Do you want your son to have to pick tomatoes? your daughter to make beds in hotels?

[Pure]

what say you all?

is this a good argument, as per Mr. Rove, for 'porous borders' and easy amnesty? or as the writer below opines, is it a bad reason for a policy that's mostly bad for our society?

http://corner.nationalreview.com/post/?q=NTZhZDdiYmJlNDViYTAwOWExNmUyMmQ5ODlmMWYwYTU=

Friday, February 09, 2007

Not Our Kind of People
[Mark Krikorian]

According to a congressman's wife who attended a Republican women's luncheon yesterday, Karl Rove explained the rationale behind the president's amnesty/open-borders proposal this way: "I don't want my 17-year-old son to have to pick tomatoes or make beds in Las Vegas."

There should be no need to explain why this is an obscene statement coming from a leader in the party that promotes the virtues of hard work, thrift, and sobriety, a party whose demi-god actually split fence rails as a young man, a party where "respectable Republican cloth coat" once actually meant something. But it does seem to be necessary to explain.Rove's comment illustrates how the Bush-McCain-Giuliani-Hagel-Martinez-Brownback-Huckabee approach to immigration strikes at the very heart of self-government.

It is precisely Rove's son (and my own, and those of the rest of us in the educated elite) who should work picking tomatoes or making beds, or washing restaurant dishes, or mowing lawns, especially when they're young, to help them develop some of the personal and civic virtues needed for self-government. It's not that I want my kids to make careers of picking tomatoes; Mexican farmworkers don't want that either. But we must inculcate in our children, especially those likely to go on to high-paying occupations, that there is no such thing as work that is beneath them.

As Tocqueville wrote: "In the United States professions are more or less laborious, more or less profitable; but they are never either high or low: every honest calling is honorable." The farther we move from that notion, the closer we come to the idea that the lawyer is somehow better than the parking-lot attendant, undercutting the very foundation of republican government.

This is why the president's "willing worker/willing employer" immigration extravaganza is morally wrong — it's not just that it will cost taxpayers untold billions, or that it will beggar our own blue-collar workers, or that it will compromise security, or that it will further dissolve our sovereignty. It would do all that, of course, but most importantly it would change the very nature of our society for the worse, creating whole occupations deemed to be unfit for respectable Americans, for which little brown people have to be imported from abroad.

In other words, mass immigration, even now, is moving us toward an unequal, master-servant society.To borrow from Lincoln, our progress in degeneracy appears to me to be pretty rapid. When it comes to this, I should prefer emigrating to some country where they make no pretense of loving liberty — to Saudi Arabia, for instance.

02/09 11:40 AM

 

[Foxee Browne]

I see nothing wrong with making a 17yo take a job such as making beds in a motel, in fact I did just that. She got a job making beds when she was 16 and got promoted to front desk. She is still in high school and knows now what it takes to earn a living and knows that she does not want to do that job all her life. What is wrong with that?

It's called life skills and values. When she leaves home she knows how to care for herself, do her taxes, do her banking, how to insure a car. Not be a drain on society. Just my 2cents.

 

[drksideofthemoon]

I don't remember how young I was, but I made a joke about the men outside hauling the trash. My mother turned to me and gave me a lecture and told me that there was dignity in all honest work.

I spent one winter working for a resort in Wyoming, and they had the contract to haul the garbage from the surrounding resorts and Teton Village to the landfill. The irony was not lost on me on the days that I had to work on the garbage truck aka swill wagon. I always imagined my mother having a good chuckle about that.

 

[scriptordelecto]

Nothing wrong with picking tomatoes. In fact, working in the garden was a requirement for us growing up. We lived on a farm with my grandparents, and we were expected to pitch in so we could eat. As a result, I think the work ethic we learned early on has helped make us all successful in our careers.

 

[Jubal_Harshaw]

Mexico's President is sooo pissed at the US right now. He has more than 4 million Mexicans wanting to immigrate to the US and the US won't let them.

I'd say let all the Mexicans immigrate. Canada wants us to let them in so bad I say we send half of Mexico up there and split the bill with them. That would also solve their problem of dwindling population. Then when there's no one left living in Mexico. I can move down there and have the whole country to myself.

 

[mckai777]

I don't remember how young I was, but I made a joke about the men outside hauling the trash. My mother turned to me and gave me a lecture and told me that there was dignity in all honest work.

Better poor and honest than rich and corrupt.

 

[R. Richard]

As Tocqueville wrote: "In the United States professions are more or less laborious, more or less profitable; but they are never either high or low: every honest calling is honorable." The farther we move from that notion, the closer we come to the idea that the lawyer is somehow better than the parking-lot attendant, undercutting the very foundation of republican government.

I am highly offended. I once worked as a parking-lot attendant. How dare someone compare me to a lawyer and even suggest that somehow the shyster is better than I am

 

[Jenny_Jackson]

Beans and berries never hurt me. Send the kids out to pick then... but then the State has decided that's cruel and "unusual punishment."

 

[3113]

I'd rather have picked tomatoes and made beds in my youth than what my father made me do--work in a tiny little office filing papers I hated secretarial work!

 

[Boxlicker101]

I have never worked at making beds, but I did pick tomatoes, when they were in season, for several years, before the job became automated. It was hard work but I survived. I would hope my sons and daughters and grandchildren could do better than such menial work, but it is far better than permanently getting welfare or some other government handout.

My opinion of Karl Rove has never been high, but it is a lot lower now. I will never denigrate honest work of any kind.

Edited to add: I didn't vote because my opinion was not listed.

 

[SeaCat]

So what is the problem with either of these jobs?

Oh so sorry, I forgot they might bruise the egos of our youngsters. It might introduce them to a little thing called work.

Cat

 

[starrkers]

My son picking tomatoes and my daughter making beds? nope, I don't have a problem with it. Wouldn't have a problem with my daughter picking tomatoes and my son making beds either.

 

[S-Des]

I don't have a problem with him saying that, he has every right to have higher aspirations for his child than a low wage, manual labor job. I also think having that type of job can be very beneficial to your child's outlook (hopefully making them want to study hard and get a better paying job someday). There's nothing wrong with people doing it, whether it's for a second income or some type of transition job to pay the bills. As a first job, it would be very difficult to make ends meet on that alone.

However, if that's how the Bush administration sees illegal immigrants...people who are less than us and only good for doing work no one else will, than it's an insight into a bunch of low-life dirtbags who shouldn't be helping shape public policy. One of my biggest complaints with illegal immigration is the assumption that it's OK to give them jobs that amount to slave labor, just because they're willing to do it. Also, I've seen these jobs that "no Americans will do" be taken over by poor people who need the work when the opportunity is there. Sometimes employers intentionally go after illegal aliens because they can get away with violating labor laws by using them. That shouldn't be encouraged or even tolerated.

 

[amicus]

Jesus Jumpin' up Christ, people, gimme a break.

You get so wrapped up in political rhetoric and thinking through your excretory orifices that you seem to forget you have a mind! Which doesn't surprise me on this forum anyway.

We are not and have not been an 'agrarian' society, for a long, long time. We are not even an 'industrial' nation or even a 'manufacturing' one, as we once were. No longer even a 'service' economy as the dirt dust dry economic professors once claimed.

We are now and have been for a decade or more, a 'technological' society, a 'thinking' society, one that produces ideas and innovations that the rest of the world looks to and depends upon.

Only left wing democrats and socialists still live in the 18th century, hoping for a return to the days of 'an honest days work', 'by the sweat on his brow', honest hard work and labor is a learning tool...bullshit...all of it!

Mexican immigrants are largely totally uneducated, never been to more than a cursory catholic tread mill. They come here to find any job, the least of which will pay four to five times more than what they could find in Mexico.

Left wing liberals, socialists, democrats each and all mount opposition to industry attempts to modernize and mechanize the farm industry, claiming they are saving the labor intensive, bent back, sweat equity of 'good honest labor'. They do so to protect the interests of the labor unions and the ignorant who just don't know any better.

You should not want your son or daughter to have to experience years of menial, repetitive labor just to understand what it feels like to be uneducated and ignorant.

Instead, they, if they must work, or want to work, should do so in a library, or a research foundation, something that will prepare them for the excellence they will face in the real world when they become competitive.

Gads....

The ole Amicus will be going offline and 'on the road again', in a few days, and not that you will miss me, but someone needs to remind you from time to time of reality and jar you away from your rhetoric.

toodles...


amicus...

 

[Pure]

Am You should not want your son or daughter to have to experience years of menial, repetitive labor just to understand what it feels like to be uneducated and ignorant.

Instead, they, if they must work, or want to work, should do so in a library, or a research foundation, something that will prepare them for the excellence they will face in the real world when they become competitive.

P: while i see the point about manual labor, i think the larger point about 'menial' and'repetitive' work is misconceived. in the technological society, someone is doing the Joe jobs in the research labs--i don't mean sweeping the floors.

i've venture to say that now and in 20 years there are just as many people in boring repetitive work as in the 1950s. or, to put it differently, only a few people (<10%) are in exciting, creative, and fulfilling jobs at any time in the last 50 years [and fewer, before that]. the 'knowledge society,' does not eliminate boring jobs--for example, there is data entry.

i'm quite familiar with low level jobs in a univerisity library also; many friends there.

it might also be mentioned, for those that don't make it to the Microsoft research facilities, that the 'service sector' continues to be strong. SOME of the nice white middle class BAs are going to be clerks or even 'servers' or Walmart 'associates' [sales clerks]. and the high school educated will turn up in Mc Donalds.

the point: the experience of tomato picking, and persisting at it, is NOT that different from the boredom and drudgery of many jobs in our 'high tech' era.

 

[Somme]

Karl should pick tomatoes.

Or would that give tomatoes a bad name?

Perhaps he should just be sent to clear minefields in the Middle East.....barefoot.

 

[amicus]

As usual, your total lack of a moral foundation, permits you to 'attempt' to equivocate and wiggle away from a stated position. What else is new?

If you displayed even a shred of moral character, you would admit the fallacy of your argument, apologize and offer appreciation for someone pointing it out to you.

Why not just have the courage, for once in your life to admit that you are totally wrong about something and have nothing to offer in defense?

Mine is a case well made and your rapid response indicates you know it well. Perhaps a few other braves souls might step up...but I doubt it.


amicus...

 

[starrkers]

Being in a small rural community where the main income is derived from crops and tourism, it is highly likely that my kids' first jobs will be exactly making beds and picking tomatoes (or cutting asparagus). I don't seek it as their career, but I sure as hell want them to have their own income.

Think you're getting a little het up over semantics there amicus. Menial work is alive and well in western society (well, the Aussie version anyway) as long as you're not in a major population centre. And I for one would rather it was done by my kids, with the pay going in their pockets, than someone else's.

 

[S-Des]

P: while i see the point about manual labor, i think the larger point about 'menial' and'repetitive' work is misconceived. in the technological society, someone is doing the Joe jobs in the research labs--i don't mean sweeping the floors.

i've venture to say that now and in 20 years there are just as many people in boring repetitive work as in the 1950s. or, to put it differently, only a few people (<10%) are in exciting, creative, and fulfilling jobs at any time in the last 50 years [and fewer, before that]. the 'knowledge society,' does not eliminate boring jobs--for example, there is data entry.

i'm quite familiar with low level jobs in a univerisity library also; many friends there.

it might also be mentioned, for those that don't make it to the Microsoft research facilities, that the 'service sector' continues to be strong. SOME of the nice white middle class BAs are going to be clerks or even 'servers' or Walmart 'associates' [sales clerks]. and the high school educated will turn up in Mc Donalds.

the point: the experience of tomato picking, and persisting at it, is NOT that different from the boredom and drudgery of many jobs in our 'high tech' era.

Not to mention the fact that many of those jobs have managerial positions available if you want to work your way up (not the tomato picking jobs, but definitely in the restaraunt industry). It's a great way to get your foot in the door if you don't have a great education or connections. It just depends on what you want to do when you grow up (assuming you have any idea at all). Not everyone is cut out to be in the tech sector. There are excellent jobs in other industries. I just learned how to assemble metal shelves for my "tech" job yesterday. Having a good work ethic is incredibly important to getting and keeping a good job.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Jesus Jumpin' up Christ, people, gimme a break.

You get so wrapped up in political rhetoric and thinking through your excretory orifices that you seem to forget you have a mind! Which doesn't surprise me on this forum anyway.

We are not and have not been an 'agrarian' society, for a long, long time. We are not even an 'industrial' nation or even a 'manufacturing' one, as we once were. No longer even a 'service' economy as the dirt dust dry economic professors once claimed.

We are now and have been for a decade or more, a 'technological' society, a 'thinking' society, one that produces ideas and innovations that the rest of the world looks to and depends upon.

Only left wing democrats and socialists still live in the 18th century, hoping for a return to the days of 'an honest days work', 'by the sweat on his brow', honest hard work and labor is a learning tool...bullshit...all of it!

Mexican immigrants are largely totally uneducated, never been to more than a cursory catholic tread mill. They come here to find any job, the least of which will pay four to five times more than what they could find in Mexico.

Left wing liberals, socialists, democrats each and all mount opposition to industry attempts to modernize and mechanize the farm industry, claiming they are saving the labor intensive, bent back, sweat equity of 'good honest labor'. They do so to protect the interests of the labor unions and the ignorant who just don't know any better.

You should not want your son or daughter to have to experience years of menial, repetitive labor just to understand what it feels like to be uneducated and ignorant.

Instead, they, if they must work, or want to work, should do so in a library, or a research foundation, something that will prepare them for the excellence they will face in the real world when they become competitive.

Gads....

The ole Amicus will be going offline and 'on the road again', in a few days, and not that you will miss me, but someone needs to remind you from time to time of reality and jar you away from your rhetoric.

toodles...


amicus...

Although it is true that we are members of a technological society, fruit trees have not yet been programmed to pick their own fruit and pack it into boxes. Beds do not make themselves. Food does not cook and serve itself and dishes do not wash themselves. There are fewer jobs involving menial labor than there were fifty years ago, but there will always be some jobs such as what Karl Rove meant.

Although the US, as a whole, is not an agrarian society, some parts, such as California's Central Valley, are. I very much doubt that we will ever be completely without farms, although there will be less farm land in the future than there is now.

 

[amicus]

Starrkers...Australia, much like Canada and the Queen's home in England are pretty much generally recognized as quasi-socialist states anyway, so your response is not unexpected.

S-Des...maybe you need a reality check also. I grew up doing very difficult manual and menial labor. The so called, 'work ethic' you learn from that, after a full day's manual sweat hard labor, is that you really don't want to make a living doing that. As you put your mind away and pick the beans, or tomato's or hops, or strawberries, and making fifty hotel beds in a day is surely not a learning experience to anyone.

You are wrong, you are all wrong, if you think sentencing your son or daughter to that kind of menial labor is a good thing.

And yes, not all will rise to benefit in a technology oriented society, but even those who do not, will benefit from it.

As much as I am opposed to mandatory, tax supported, 'public education', I do strongly know the value of 'universal education' and the value it has for society in general. I just don't think people need a gun at their heads to provide education for their children.

And, no, I am not lost or confused in semantics or rhetoric. A society, to grow, must change. The mexican immigrants are and will bring about change in our society and that is as it should be.

The essential ingredient in all of this is to protect the basic human and individual freedom of the people who are here and the people who come here, like so many before them.

You know I am right. And I know it is a hard pill for you to swallow; thus I have no great expectations.

amicus...

 

[amicus]

Ah, Box, you evade the issue. Of course there will always be a need for manual, hard, physical labor in many areas and some may or will be well suited for just that endeavor.

But do you want to send your kid to a coal mine in West Virginia to learn work ethics?

Really?

These kids with an Ipod in their pocket and a Blue Tooth in their ear and wired into the 21st century more than you or I will ever be?

C'mon, be rational, gimme a break!

amicus...

 

[Boxlicker101]

Starrkers...Australia, much like Canada and the Queen's home in England are pretty much generally recognized as quasi-socialist states anyway, so your response is not unexpected.

S-Des...maybe you need a reality check also. I grew up doing very difficult manual and menial labor. The so called, 'work ethic' you learn from that, after a full day's manual sweat hard labor, is that you really don't want to make a living doing that. As you put your mind away and pick the beans, or tomato's or hops, or strawberries, and making fifty hotel beds in a day is surely not a learning experience to anyone.

You are wrong, you are all wrong, if you think sentencing your son or daughter to that kind of menial labor is a good thing.

And yes, not all will rise to benefit in a technology oriented society, but even those who do not, will benefit from it.

As much as I am opposed to mandatory, tax supported, 'public education', I do strongly know the value of 'universal education' and the value it has for society in general. I just don't think people need a gun at their heads to provide education for their children.

And, no, I am not lost or confused in semantics or rhetoric. A society, to grow, must change. The mexican immigrants are and will bring about change in our society and that is as it should be.

The essential ingredient in all of this is to protect the basic human and individual freedom of the people who are here and the people who come here, like so many before them.

You know I am right. And I know it is a hard pill for you to swallow; thus I have no great expectations.

amicus...

Certainly nobody wants a son or daughter or grandchild to make a career out of doing the kind of work that is being discussed here. However, I would rather my son were a fruit tramp than be healthy and on the dole.

I did a considerable bit of manual labor when I was growing up and later it was the only kind of work I could get, so I took it. Eventually, I was able to get out of it, and into something better, but I survived ot, and so can anybody.

 

[cumallday]

He sure is stupid for someone named Karl with a "K".

If middle class parents really want their kids to understand how well they have it and just how cushioned their existence is they should send them to live in a Mexican slum for a couple of months. Let them feel what it's like to not know where their next meal will come from. You never know, it just might make humanists out of them.

If the product of your labour is tomatoes or hotel service, it's better if you own the means of that production, n'est ce pas? It's easy to lose sight of someone's inherent dignity when they are tied up in a system that demands the dehumanization of their entire class and the alienation of their labour as well as the alienation of those who consume the products of that labour.

 

[Boxlicker101]

Ah, Box, you evade the issue. Of course there will always be a need for manual, hard, physical labor in many areas and some may or will be well suited for just that endeavor.

But do you want to send your kid to a coal mine in West Virginia to learn work ethics?

Really?

These kids with an Ipod in their pocket and a Blue Tooth in their ear and wired into the 21st century more than you or I will ever be?

C'mon, be rational, gimme a break!

amicus...

I evade what issue. I agree that this is largely a technological society, but I also know there is manual labor that must be done. Horrors! I think we agree with each other.

I would really hate for my grandkids to have a 2,500 mile commute to WV, but I would have no objection to them doing farm labor or making beds in a hotel or flipping burgers at MacDonalds. I am very strongly in favor of teaching the younger generation the value of a dollar by requiring them to earn some of them. And, I find it hard to believe you don't feel pretty much the same way.