Do you stear your own boat?

[A Desert Rose]

Do you have the right to set your own course in a relationship?

Do you have any right to want something in the relationship?

I just wonder where the boundary is for some and what opinions people have.

What do Doms think?

As a submissive, I have struggled with this a lot. I've been told that I "don't have a vote" more times than I can count. That what I want is "immaterial" next to His needs and wants. So, then I settled for something less than what I truly wanted or thought I deserved.

Does anyone have any opinions on this?

(I don't mean opinions on my personal statement, but on the general idea of this thread.)

Ohhh, maybe this is all just a goofy thread, too. Just pass on by if you think so.

 

[RavenSpirit2k4]

Of course what you want counts! If your dom isn't willing to do anythng to just please you and you're left wanting, then it's time to find a new dom if he won't work with you about it.

As I was just posting in my thread, I've been beset by wannabe subs who are the opposite of this - they want to set the whole relationship with a domme around their wants and fantasies.

Basically, what I'm saying is that - dom/me or sub - completley ignoring the wants and needs of your partner is purely selfish, and said partner shouldn't tolerate it.

Oh, and by the way: ~stalk!~

 

[Learn Humility]

I believe that a D/s relationship is very much like any other, in that both parties have the right to expect to have their needs met.

Of course, as I imagine most Doms would, I prefer the submissive whose need is to be blindly obedient. But if she does have limits, as long as she doesn't attempt to negotiate them in advance and leaves things to what I consider to be my good judgement and intuition it's not a problem.

I believe that the gift of the submission of oneself to another is a precious one, and that the submissive has every right to expect to get what she wants and needs from the relationship.

What the submissive wants and needs from the relationship should never be immaterial. I would assume, to take it to a more personal level, that you did not stay with any Doms who told you that "you don't have a vote" or what you want or need is immaterial. Or if you stayed and "settled", it was not for very long.

That, or those, particular Doms sought the "Blind Obedience" type of sub. Not that there's anything wrong with that, but if that's not you, then you were not right for each other IMO.

 

[A Desert Rose]

I believe that a D/s relationship is very much like any other, in that both parties have the right to expect to have their needs met.

Of course, as I imagine most Doms would, I prefer the submissive whose need is to be blindly obedient. But if she does have limits, as long as she doesn't attempt to negotiate them in advance and leaves things to what I consider to be my good judgement and intuition it's not a problem.

I believe that the gift of the submission of oneself to another is a precious one, and that the submissive has every right to expect to get what she wants and needs from the relationship....

If you don't negotiate, then what do you do? Where is the line between blind obedience and expecting to have needs of the sub met?

I'm not being disrespectful. I just don't really know the answers.

 

[fallon2]

For me

I need to have long discussions with the sub to find out what her kinks, cravings, fears and her desires are before we do anything.

Then I try to incorporate all that I can so when we close the door then the "fun" comes in.

Thus, in a very true sense, the sub does set her course and her "wants" are definitely taken into consideration.

Technically, the sub doesn't have a vote.

When we are done and are discussing what has been concluded then I am very interested in what she thinks and feels.


Good thread, again, ADR!

 

[A Desert Rose]

Of course what you want counts! If your dom isn't willing to do anythng to just please you and you're left wanting, then it's time to find a new dom if he won't work with you about it.

As I was just posting in my thread, I've been beset by wannabe subs who are the opposite of this - they want to set the whole relationship with a domme around their wants and fantasies.

Basically, what I'm saying is that - dom/me or sub - completley ignoring the wants and needs of your partner is purely selfish, and said partner shouldn't tolerate it.

Oh, and by the way: ~stalk!~

Yes, exactly. I don't want to set the agenda. I want it set for me. But I would like to know that how I feel about things, is taken into consideration. I've never had a Dom who cared about that.

and I stalk you back, dolly-domme. ;-D

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: For me

I need to have long discussions with the sub to find out what her kinks, cravings, fears and her desires are before we do anything.

Then I try to incorporate all that I can so when we close the door then the "fun" comes in.

Thus, in a very true sense, the sub does set her course and her "wants" are definitely taken into consideration.

Technically, the sub doesn't have a vote.

When we are done and are discussing what has been concluded then I am very interested in what she thinks and feels.


Good thread, again, ADR!

Thanks, fallon and thank you for your input. I like your Dom-ly approach, too.

Okay then, what you are saying is that she has a voice but the final vote is yours?

 

[Netzach]

"I've never had a Dom who cared about that"

That kind of makes me sad.

I don't think I could enjoy someone, even a *client* whose interests and desires I could not bring myself to care about, even if they make me crazy. If they make me crazy enough not to care about those things I don't want to be around them.

Yeah, it's gratifying to inform your sub "this is not a fucking democracy" but it should be a functional fascism, it *has* to take into account the needs and characteristics of the subjugated to sustain itself or create any positive outcome at all.

 

[fallon2]

Re: Yes!

Thanks, fallon and thank you for your input. I like your Dom-ly approach, too.

Okay then, what you are saying is that she has a voice but the final vote is yours?

Yes, I do have the FINAL vote.

But, she has her safeword.

Finally, If I have LISTENED to her in our previous conversations she knows that she had a voice in the activities.

One recent sub thinks that she will know "in advance" everything that will happen based on our conversations. She will, but she won't. lol

 

[Learn Humility]

If you don't negotiate, then what do you do? Where is the line between blind obedience and expecting to have needs of the sub met?

Netzach and I kind of got into this yesterday...

As I said, I trust my instincts and intuition. If I'm wrong, I can always pull it back a notch or two during the play, which I absolutely will do when I feel I have exceeded the limits of my submissive. I always take her needs, wants, and limits into account.

But there's something about the concept of negotiating in advance that I find bothersome.

As I said in the other thread, very often a submissive who thinks she knows what her limits are may be surprised to learn otherwise when in the hands of a differnt Dom.

 

[graceanne]

Ok, once again, I'm new, so please don't hate me if I put my foot in my mouth.
But, from what I've seen, I've seen that a lot of people like calling themselves Dom/me's, but they don't actually care about the relationship, all they care about is the sex. And if all they care about is the sex, then it would seem that they wouldn't care about your needs. There are plenty of people like this, even in the vanilla world.
It would seem to me that if your Dom/me really cares about you, and was really listening, that he won't do anything to harm you, or anything that is REALLY beyond the line. They will also want you to be happy, otherwise the relationship won't work. All relationships need balance, the D/s relationship is just balanced differently. If your Dom is only thinking of himself, then it's a one sided relationship. *shrugs* Anyway, that's how I see it.
Grace

 

[FungiUg]

I've seen that a lot of people like calling themselves Dom/me's, but they don't actually care about the relationship, all they care about is the sex. And if all they care about is the sex, then it would seem that they wouldn't care about your needs.

Hey Grace, welcome along!

I'm going to both agree with you and disagree with you here.

Firstly, it depends on what sort of relationship you are having. If you are having an intimate, caring, loving relationship then a partner who is only interested in sex simply won't do. That's just a matter of picking a suitable partner.

Secondly, even those of us who are "players" should care about our partners needs and desires. At present, I am not looking for a long term relationship with a submissive, just a fun play partner. But because I care about the people I play with, even just sexually, I would have to disagree a dominant who is in it just for the sex would automatically NOT care about a submissive's needs.

Thirdly, that "only interested in sex" isn't a D/s phenomina, by the way. Very much part of the human condition! Sometimes a relationship can grow from a mutual interest in sex... but like everything, for a relationship to prosper the people in it must be compatible, and that includes what they are wanting from the future.

Sadly, I think you are right Grace in that there are a lot of dominants who only care about sex and don't care about their partners. So it pays to be wise and have that initial discussion around compatibility...

 

[snowy ciara]

maybe I'm really missing the point here..

Of course, as I imagine most Doms would, I prefer the submissive whose need is to be blindly obedient. But if she does have limits, as long as she doesn't attempt to negotiate them in advance and leaves things to what I consider to be my good judgement and intuition it's not a problem.



and then you said later



As I said, I trust my instincts and intuition. If I'm wrong, I can always pull it back a notch or two during the play, which I absolutely will do when I feel I have exceeded the limits of my submissive. I always take her needs, wants, and limits into account.

But there's something about the concept of negotiating in advance that I find bothersome.

I'm not trying to be a pain, but, if you don't talk to the submissive ahead of time, how the heck do you figure out what her needs and limits are? It seems that Domming by Braille is a Bad Idea for all involved.

 

[NCShin]

I like to give non D/s examples and relate them to D/s, so here goes.

Earlier this summer when my GF was in town, she wanted to go to the beach. She wanted to go very badly. I dislike the beach. She wanted to go to the outer banks. I wanted to go someplace a bit closer (actually just more direct highways to get there) in Willmington.

The outer banks are more famous, and her being japanese she wanted to go there because she had heard of them. (kitty hawk and such)

It would have taken about an extra 2 hours to drive there and I knew she just wanted a decent beach. Wilmington would be just as good as the OB. We went to wilmington and she had a blast.

So the way I relate this to D/s is as follows.

She had a "need" in going to the beach. She loves the ocean, the sun and I think she also enjoys walking around in a bikini more than she'll admit. I'd rather have gone to the mountains, but that was just a want of mine. We went to the beach.

Now, I fullfilled her "need" to go to the beach, but did not grant her "want" of going to the beach at the Outer Banks. She's a history buff, she had a want to see kitty hawk. I did not grant that. Instead we went to the USS North Carolina battleship. So I granted her want of seeing something historical, but not the exact historical site she had planned. Some day I'm sure we'll see Kitty Hawk, but in my time, not hers.

This was pretty wordy, but hope it gets my point accross.

 

[graceanne]

Hey Grace, welcome along!
automatically NOT care about a submissive's needs.

Thirdly, that "only interested in sex" isn't a D/s phenomina, by the way. Very much part of the human condition! Sometimes a relationship can grow from a mutual interest in sex... but like everything, for a relationship to prosper the people in it must be compatible, and that includes what they are wanting from the future.

Sadly, I think you are right Grace in that there are a lot of dominants who only care about sex and don't care about their partners. So it pays to be wise and have that initial discussion around compatibility...

Thank you. I wanted to point out that I said that there were a lot of people liek that in the vanilla world, too. I know that. As for the rest, maybe I'm just cynical, but I've found that the majority of people in the world are out looking for number one. And I'm normally not it. But that's life.

And actually, as much as I would like it if only the Dom/mes are the selfish ones, there are sub's who are, too. That's people for you.

Grace

 

[Sir_Winston54]

Re: Do you steer your own boat?

Do you have the right to set your own course in a relationship?

Do you have any right to want something in the relationship?

I just wonder where the boundary is for some and what opinions people have.

What do Doms think?

"Set your own course in a relationship?" Since you initiated the sailing metaphor...

As a Dominant, it is my feeling that you are in the place of a shipowner with a cargo you want to get from A to B. I am your ship's Captain. "Captain, I want this shipload of cargo delivered to Calcutta."

"Very well. We'll set sail immediately." From this point on, the decisions are mine. I decide if we have enough supplies on board, enough sailors, and what course we take to get there.

The negotiations with a potential submissive are analogous to the shipowner telling the Captain what needs (in the shipowner's opinion) to be done. The shipowner doesn't tell the Captain how to do it - that's the Captain's job, to know the best way to get it done. If the Captain doesn't do the job right, the shipowner can fire him. If the shipowner doesn't like the way the Captain does the job, the shipowner can fire him. But as long as he's the Captain of the ship, he does what the shipowner wants in his way. Otherwise, he's just a steersman, and the shipowner is Captain, too.

Do you have any right to want something in the relationship?

Certainly. Whether you'll get what you want is another question entirely. I want to know what a submissive wants. It makes it easier for me to reward - or discipline - her.

 

[redelicious]

Yes, exactly. I don't want to set the agenda. I want it set for me. But I would like to know that how I feel about things, is taken into consideration. I've never had a Dom who cared about that.

and I stalk you back, dolly-domme. ;-D

This just troubles me. I guess my idealised version of a D/s relationship is made up of two people who participate equally. A sub has to trust that the Dom will listen, comprehend, and in the end make the best choices for them both. But in order to trust this much I think the sub needs to feel valued. I don't know how the relationship could possibly grow with a Dom who continually makes decisions for the relationship based ONLY on his needs. Sometimes I wonder if this kind of guy really gets what the power exchange is all about, or if he even cares as long as his needs are met.

Says the woman in the vanillia marriage...

Besides, a sub who has NO say so isn't a sub. She's a slave. I read that.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Re: Re: Do you steer your own boat?

"Set your own course in a relationship?" Since you initiated the sailing metaphor...

As a Dominant, it is my feeling that you are in the place of a shipowner with a cargo you want to get from A to B. I am your ship's Captain. "Captain, I want this shipload of cargo delivered to Calcutta."

"Very well. We'll set sail immediately." From this point on, the decisions are mine. I decide if we have enough supplies on board, enough sailors, and what course we take to get there.

The negotiations with a potential submissive are analogous to the shipowner telling the Captain what needs (in the shipowner's opinion) to be done. The shipowner doesn't tell the Captain how to do it - that's the Captain's job, to know the best way to get it done. If the Captain doesn't do the job right, the shipowner can fire him. If the shipowner doesn't like the way the Captain does the job, the shipowner can fire him. But as long as he's the Captain of the ship, he does what the shipowner wants in his way. Otherwise, he's just a steersman, and the shipowner is Captain, too.

Do you have any right to want something in the relationship?

Certainly. Whether you'll get what you want is another question entirely. I want to know what a submissive wants. It makes it easier for me to reward - or discipline - her.

This is good... really, really good.
Thank you.

 

[A Desert Rose]

This just troubles me. I guess my idealised version of a D/s relationship is made up of two people who participate equally. A sub has to trust that the Dom will listen, comprehend, and in the end make the best choices for them both. But in order to trust this much I think the sub needs to feel valued. I don't know how the relationship could possibly grow with a Dom who continually makes decisions for the relationship based ONLY on his needs. Sometimes I wonder if this kind of guy really gets what the power exchange is all about, or if he even cares as long as his needs are met.

Says the woman in the vanillia marriage...

Besides, a sub who has NO say so isn't a sub. She's a slave. I read that.

LOL... you read that, huh?

I can assure you, he has no idea what the term power exchange means. I think he really does want a slave and I can't be that.

 

[A Desert Rose]

Thank you. I wanted to point out that I said that there were a lot of people liek that in the vanilla world, too. I know that. As for the rest, maybe I'm just cynical, but I've found that the majority of people in the world are out looking for number one. And I'm normally not it. But that's life.

And actually, as much as I would like it if only the Dom/mes are the selfish ones, there are sub's who are, too. That's people for you.

Grace

Thank you for posting to my thread. It means a lot that you feel comfortable enough to do so.

And you are not as off base as you think you are. ;-)

 

[FungiUg]

ADR, I think the secret for sucess in your relationship involves having enough sailors!

Actually, I do like Sir_Winston's nautical metaphor, but I couldn't resist.

 

[WriterDom]

I think rose would do quite fine with a Captain. She picks Admirals and just doesn't want to be one of many in the fleet.

 

[Learn Humility]

Re: maybe I'm really missing the point here..

I'm not trying to be a pain, but, if you don't talk to the submissive ahead of time, how the heck do you figure out what her needs and limits are? It seems that Domming by Braille is a Bad Idea for all involved.

First, let me say that I do not consider you in any way to be a "pain". I find this forum to be the best of many that I have seen dealing with BDSM, D/s, etc., given its large number of members, high level of activity, and intelligent discourse among those interested in this lifestyle.

That said, allow me to answer your question

if you don't talk to the submissive ahead of time, how the heck do you figure out what her needs and limits are?

At the risk of sounding conceited, smug, and somewhat taken with myself and my technique (pick one or all of the above), I would say that sometimes I just know .

A woman in a vanilla relationship once told me "Sometimes 'No' means 'Yes' ".

My ex-wife always knew when I was lying.

I have an associate in business with an uncanny ability to size up people's personalities immediately upon meeting them, and subsequent events prove him almost always to be correct.

OK. If you read some of my other posts in this thread and others, you know that I consider a D/s relationship to be much like any other: a two way street in which the needs of both parties must be met for it to be successful.

But there are many ways to determine the needs, desires, wants, and limits of the submissive besdies instinct and intuition, or "Domming by Braille" as you put it...

-- I will always talk to my submissive while using her in a manner in which she has not been previously used ("you like it when I hurt you, don't you?"), and am usually able to determine when her "No" means "Yes".

-- I give my submissive writing assignments ("A Day At The Beach", "A Shopping Trip", "A Night At A Club") in which she consciously or sub-consciously describes events which delineate her desires and limits.

-- Sometimes I just use plain old common sense. I would never permanently mark a submissive without some type of prior understanding. And as someone else said in another thread, if I know her best friend was electrocuted, I'm not going to surprise her with a TENS unit and say "Today we will try a little 'electricity play' ".

-- I permit my submissive to speak freely, but only after the fact, about what they may have enjoyed or not enjoyed about a particular activity.

I consider submission to be a gift, and Dominance a responsibility, and I always want my submissive to trust me and feel safe with me.

Like most Doms, I always desire to expand the limits of my submissive. That's the challenge, and that's where the power and the turn-on lie for me. Besides, repitition can become quite boring.

But I always respect limits while trying to expand them, especially in a relationship in which I care about the submissive and wish the relationship to continue.

But, and it's a BIG BUT, I find the idea of negotiating limits in advance to be a complete turn-off, and completely contrary to the basis of a D/s relationship and the establishing of the bond that I wish to establish.

 

[Sir_Winston54]

I think rose would do quite fine with a Captain. She picks Admirals and just doesn't want to be one of many in the fleet.

WD (if I may be so bold as to use the abbreviated form of your name, as I have seen others do) - remember, the Admiral doesn't command the ship he rides on - he commands its Captain. That was one reason I kept the metaphor mercantile-nautical rather than Navy.

On second thought... one nice thing about the navies of the past, though: discipline was often carried out with floggings or cats'-o-nine-tails. But then, they were all-male ships, which wouldn't do a thing for me.

 

[graceanne]

Thank you for posting to my thread. It means a lot that you feel comfortable enough to do so.

And you are not as off base as you think you are. ;-)

Well it's easy to be comfortable when you aren't using your real name. But frankly, I lurked for a bit, watching posts and stuff, to make sure that this was a 'safe' place to be. So far I've been real comfortable with you all, and people have been really polite. Thank you.
Grace